Electricity-conducting gasses for electroshock-conducting area-effect weapons?

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, SCRawl, Thanas

User avatar
Shroom Man 777
FUCKING DICK-STABBER!
Posts: 20698
Joined: 2003-05-11 08:39am
Location: Bleeding breasts and stabbing dicks since 2003
Contact:

Electricity-conducting gasses for electroshock-conducting area-effect weapons?

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2017-01-20 04:05am

Okay, this is really for a Star Wars RP but here goes, since I want something that can be sort of believably technobabbled. Is there any kind of gas or aerosol or even sufficiently fine particles that can create a not-so-persistent but not-instantaneously-dissipating cloud that can conduct electricity? Possibly for non-lethal incapacitory purposes?

Whatever happened to that UV-laser air-ionizing wireless taser ray gun thing?

In game I want to make an area-effect ion charge grenade, like overcharged power packs + gas + small explosive to disperse gas. I can of course just make shit up, some spacey "tibanna gas that's not superheated into blaster-plasma can still conduct ionics" sort of thing. But... yeah. I want something sorta realistic.
Image Image Image
shroom is a lovely boy and i wont hear a bad word against him - LUSY-CHAN!
Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people :D - PeZook
Shroom, I read out the stuff you write about us. You are an endless supply of morale down here. :p - an OWS street medic
Pink Sugar Heart Attack!

Patrick Ogaard
Jedi Master
Posts: 1016
Joined: 2002-07-06 05:14pm
Location: Germany

Re: Electricity-conducting gasses for electroshock-conducting area-effect weapons?

Postby Patrick Ogaard » 2017-01-20 06:28am

Star Wars canon includes electromagnetic pulse grenades, also known as droid poppers, though they presumably only work well against droids. Non-canon, but quite logically, there are also stun grenades mentioned in various sources.

Failing that, how about a pom-pom grenade? The activated grenade bursts, expelling a cloud of whisker-thin, lightweight conductive filaments with a consistency and mechanical strength like that of cotton candy. For several seconds, a tiny power cell sends disabling electrical pulses through the slowly-settling pom-pom, also triggering arcs within the filament cloud. Within seconds, the cloud will settle to the ground, and the filaments degrade into dust within a short time. Unscrupulous sorts may install overcharged power cells, making the filaments abruptly disintegrate in a massive and deadly arc and thunderclap.
Or not. But it's plausible if you don't look at it too closely.

User avatar
Shroom Man 777
FUCKING DICK-STABBER!
Posts: 20698
Joined: 2003-05-11 08:39am
Location: Bleeding breasts and stabbing dicks since 2003
Contact:

Re: Electricity-conducting gasses for electroshock-conducting area-effect weapons?

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2017-01-20 08:48am

Patrick Ogaard wrote:Star Wars canon includes electromagnetic pulse grenades, also known as droid poppers, though they presumably only work well against droids. Non-canon, but quite logically, there are also stun grenades mentioned in various sources.

Failing that, how about a pom-pom grenade? The activated grenade bursts, expelling a cloud of whisker-thin, lightweight conductive filaments with a consistency and mechanical strength like that of cotton candy. For several seconds, a tiny power cell sends disabling electrical pulses through the slowly-settling pom-pom, also triggering arcs within the filament cloud. Within seconds, the cloud will settle to the ground, and the filaments degrade into dust within a short time. Unscrupulous sorts may install overcharged power cells, making the filaments abruptly disintegrate in a massive and deadly arc and thunderclap.
Or not. But it's plausible if you don't look at it too closely.


That is brilliant and if one combines that filament thing with an ion grenade or an EMP grenade, presuming my character can find the anti-droid boom-boom + other ingredients in the Rebel ship he's on, it can have anti-organic purposes. At least SW Rebels showed that anti-droid and anti-vehicle ion rifles can actually mess up organics too...

Hmmm... yes in real life that pom-pom idea might work. New conductive materials with nano-cool features allowing them to be made into really fine but flexible and durable electroconductive strands might mean that tasers and taser-grenades might have preposterous "party streamer" pom-pom attack modes! That would be horrible, like getting snared by jellyfish tentacles.
Image Image Image
shroom is a lovely boy and i wont hear a bad word against him - LUSY-CHAN!
Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people :D - PeZook
Shroom, I read out the stuff you write about us. You are an endless supply of morale down here. :p - an OWS street medic
Pink Sugar Heart Attack!

User avatar
Korto
Jedi Master
Posts: 1013
Joined: 2007-12-19 07:31am
Location: Newcastle, Aus

Re: Electricity-conducting gasses for electroshock-conducting area-effect weapons?

Postby Korto » 2017-01-20 09:51am

Huh, I was thinking something sort of similar; a grenade filled with electrostatically charged metal dust. The dust is held against its mutual repulsion by the shell, until its cracked by a small explosive charge or something, at which point all the dust goes FOOF in all directions, adhering by induced charge to anything in the area, and causing powerful earthing shocks.
The shell would need to be able to insulate the electric field from the outside until it breaks. It might also be that the shrapnel from the breaking shell would be more dangerous than the chaged dust. Electrostatic forces can be pretty strong.

OK, mine probably breaks physics more than Patrick's, but hey, it's an idea.
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor

User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 36918
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB
Contact:

Re: Electricity-conducting gasses for electroshock-conducting area-effect weapons?

Postby Sea Skimmer » 2017-01-20 06:42pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Okay, this is really for a Star Wars RP but here goes, since I want something that can be sort of believably technobabbled. Is there any kind of gas or aerosol or even sufficiently fine particles that can create a not-so-persistent but not-instantaneously-dissipating cloud that can conduct electricity? Possibly for non-lethal incapacitory purposes?


Probably, but it will also probably also be a cancer bomb as I am hard pressed to think of a good conductor that wouldn't cause problems. That non lethal thing is rather vital; are we allowed to kill a lot of people and start a lot of fires or not? What is the actual end goal?

Also if you want a cloud that forms rapidly and lasts long enough to be useful and has a reliable shape your going to need some kind of bursting charge to dispense the payload, which will be violent. Flashbangs are already lethal at point blank range to the head or torso, so you got to compete with that and also just throwing a damn concussion grenade at the enemy instead of a frag grenade if killing some people but not all people is acceptable.

Also keep in mind making non electrically conductive clothing is entirely viable, and military uniforms in SW might be that way already. Fully insulating the body requires a mask and seals, but against a low power electrical weapon just covering over the torso and limbs + insulated boots should provide some protection. So again, design options depend on the actual goal.

One might also consider chemical weapons, depending on the goal and level of jackassery allowed. Vomiting agents aren't friendly things but they can be very effective if some lethal effect is allowable, and for bonus they make it absurdly hard for the enemy to keep a gas mask on if exposed before donning. That was largely the point. Vomiting agent makes enemy troops vulnerable to much more lethal effects, or being arrested for smoking pot, or whatever.



As I recall though it's been years, due to an advanced enemy countermeasure called 'wind' as noted above, and this 'wind' constantly blowing more mass into the laser beam effective range of that idea only proved to be something like 10 meters (within wired taser range plausibly) before you had to make the laser and electrical pulses so powerful it wasn't going to be non lethal on any reliable basis. That's a huge problem with any concept relying on a non wired conductor, since the conductivity of the air itself varies. But this led into the taser projectile idea.


In game I want to make an area-effect ion charge grenade, like overcharged power packs + gas + small explosive to disperse gas. I can of course just make shit up, some spacey "tibanna gas that's not superheated into blaster-plasma can still conduct ionics" sort of thing. But... yeah. I want something sorta realistic.


If you have Starwars tech and you want a non lethal weapon then an idea and some hardware already exists for very small self contained taser projectiles. Nothing would stop you from bundling these into a grenade given Star Wars's superior energy density (battery is your main limit today) and just throwing that at people. Though you've got to keep velocity down to avoid killing people, and have enough balls to ensure a reliable radius of effect, and in Star Wars you have that BONUS PROBLEM of radically different forms of aliens you might want to use it against. An electrical waveform that incapacitates one species might prove utterly lethal to another.

Patrick Ogaard wrote:Failing that, how about a pom-pom grenade? The activated grenade bursts, expelling a cloud of whisker-thin, lightweight conductive filaments with a consistency and mechanical strength like that of cotton candy.


That might work, but avoiding lung injury unlikely.

Korto wrote:Huh, I was thinking something sort of similar; a grenade filled with electrostatically charged metal dust.


Seems to me like you'd need an awful lot of dust to make that work, making it a certain lung nuking bomb, and just not having much radius of effect otherwise. Even if the dust itself was harmless in chemical terms it's still...inhaling dust. This could be fatal in one breath if its thick enough.

Electrostatic based dispersion is an interesting idea though. Also thinking on it a grenade which air bursts but orients down only (its not like it can't be guided damnit, Star Wars has been rendered rather dated on what droid tech/micro UAVs could do) might be able to use some kind of tiny railgun like device for dispersion and deploy a tiny drogue chute to reduce probability of the grenade shell causing fatal head wounds.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956

User avatar
Zixinus
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6200
Joined: 2007-06-19 12:48pm
Location: In Seth the Blitzspear
Contact:

Re: Electricity-conducting gasses for electroshock-conducting area-effect weapons?

Postby Zixinus » 2017-01-21 05:23am

A thought: have you considered instead of gas, some sort of goo? Maybe non-Newtonian? That explosive doesn't explode regularly but spreads goo in a relatively wide area and degrades with air.
Credo!
Chat with me on Skype if you want to talk about writing, ideas or if you want a test-reader! PM for address.

User avatar
Shroom Man 777
FUCKING DICK-STABBER!
Posts: 20698
Joined: 2003-05-11 08:39am
Location: Bleeding breasts and stabbing dicks since 2003
Contact:

Re: Electricity-conducting gasses for electroshock-conducting area-effect weapons?

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2017-01-21 07:41am

Zixinus wrote:A thought: have you considered instead of gas, some sort of goo? Maybe non-Newtonian? That explosive doesn't explode regularly but spreads goo in a relatively wide area and degrades with air.


Hurm thanks for the idea. I was thinking of some shenenigans involving liquid plastoid (or whatever space-adhesives, plastic cement or epoxy equivalent SW has) and some gas-based explosive dispersion thing.
Image Image Image
shroom is a lovely boy and i wont hear a bad word against him - LUSY-CHAN!
Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people :D - PeZook
Shroom, I read out the stuff you write about us. You are an endless supply of morale down here. :p - an OWS street medic
Pink Sugar Heart Attack!

User avatar
Khaat
Jedi Knight
Posts: 589
Joined: 2008-11-04 11:42am

Re: Electricity-conducting gasses for electroshock-conducting area-effect weapons?

Postby Khaat » 2017-01-23 11:57am

How about just "charged goo" grenade? A binary compound that generates a charge when mixed (on any surface it strikes)?
"Just because you're the captain doesn't mean you can order me to... oh, right. Fuck, it does." - Krep, Spacetrawler

User avatar
Zixinus
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6200
Joined: 2007-06-19 12:48pm
Location: In Seth the Blitzspear
Contact:

Re: Electricity-conducting gasses for electroshock-conducting area-effect weapons?

Postby Zixinus » 2017-01-23 02:35pm

Another idea: layers of sticky, floaty wires that shoot out that is so light and non-dense that it barely drops in the air. Like a little sea urchin with very long spines.
Credo!
Chat with me on Skype if you want to talk about writing, ideas or if you want a test-reader! PM for address.

User avatar
Shroom Man 777
FUCKING DICK-STABBER!
Posts: 20698
Joined: 2003-05-11 08:39am
Location: Bleeding breasts and stabbing dicks since 2003
Contact:

Re: Electricity-conducting gasses for electroshock-conducting area-effect weapons?

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2017-01-23 08:20pm

Conductive spider-silk-like strands or conductive lamprey-mucus snot strands! Electro-sniveling!
Image Image Image
shroom is a lovely boy and i wont hear a bad word against him - LUSY-CHAN!
Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people :D - PeZook
Shroom, I read out the stuff you write about us. You are an endless supply of morale down here. :p - an OWS street medic
Pink Sugar Heart Attack!

User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 36918
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB
Contact:

Re: Electricity-conducting gasses for electroshock-conducting area-effect weapons?

Postby Sea Skimmer » 2017-02-01 05:01pm

Image
https://www.google.com/patents/US8981261

So this isn't exactly what you were asking for but I randomly just saw it, and its, actually pretty damn related if you want a plasma grenade type anything. Because Boeing got enough win points together to patent a method for using a laser, microwave beam or plain electrical arc flash to target and counter enemy EXPLOSIONS by launching a vaporized bolt of plasma back at them. Which should give an idea as to how powerful some kind of air ionizing blast is, powerful enough that if you could ever make this work it really could considerably muffle an explosive shockwave before it hit you. Which means its will also plonk dead people at close range by explosively punching them in the everywhere.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956

User avatar
Shroom Man 777
FUCKING DICK-STABBER!
Posts: 20698
Joined: 2003-05-11 08:39am
Location: Bleeding breasts and stabbing dicks since 2003
Contact:

Re: Electricity-conducting gasses for electroshock-conducting area-effect weapons?

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2017-02-01 08:36pm

Wait... "patent" can mean all sorts of things. There are patents for all sorts of kooky woo-woo pseudo-cold fusiony stuff. But this one's filed by Boeing...
Image Image Image
shroom is a lovely boy and i wont hear a bad word against him - LUSY-CHAN!
Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people :D - PeZook
Shroom, I read out the stuff you write about us. You are an endless supply of morale down here. :p - an OWS street medic
Pink Sugar Heart Attack!

User avatar
The_Saint
Jedi Knight
Posts: 591
Joined: 2007-05-05 04:13am
Location: Under Down Under

Re: Electricity-conducting gasses for electroshock-conducting area-effect weapons?

Postby The_Saint » 2017-02-02 06:12pm

By my understanding of the Boeing concept: this magic voodoo works in theory on paper but they've never managed to get any form of prototype or technology demonstration to work (if they've even tried)
All people are equal but some people are more equal than others.

User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 36918
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB
Contact:

Re: Electricity-conducting gasses for electroshock-conducting area-effect weapons?

Postby Sea Skimmer » 2017-02-02 07:03pm

Yes this is patent for boosting stock price not building anything. The problem for actually making it work is the incredibly high energy density you'd need out of the system, without self destructing. It can't cancel out an explosive blast very much without exerting explosive like energy density.

But hey that electric armor that was all the internet rage of ~2005, and vaporizes RPG warhead jets has actually panned out and is now service ready technology with standardized panels. It's just no vehicle has yet used it operationally. So weird things can work.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956

User avatar
The_Saint
Jedi Knight
Posts: 591
Joined: 2007-05-05 04:13am
Location: Under Down Under

Re: Electricity-conducting gasses for electroshock-conducting area-effect weapons?

Postby The_Saint » 2017-02-13 06:36pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:...
But hey that electric armor that was all the internet rage of ~2005, and vaporizes RPG warhead jets has actually panned out and is now service ready technology with standardized panels. It's just no vehicle has yet used it operationally. So weird things can work.


Really? I thought that had died a quiet death after proving 'not-really-combat-feasible'.
All people are equal but some people are more equal than others.

User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 36918
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB
Contact:

Re: Electricity-conducting gasses for electroshock-conducting area-effect weapons?

Postby Sea Skimmer » 2017-02-14 07:19pm

Even at the time of those decade reports they'd already proved it works in multi shot live fire trials, the issue really was and remains cost, its not cheap and a major job to install, but its much lighter then any other solution for making the flank of a vehicle proof against RPG-7s.

The problem is among all US Army vehicles only the new MRAP type vehicles can easily mount a bigger generator to power it, and MRAPs aren't much use against Russia, nor is the existing model of electric armor much use against heavy ATGM warheads or 30mm cannon fire on heavy force vehicles. THat means other solutions are going to end up being favored for armor upgrades, the Bradley being in need of a total revamp since it's never going to get replaced in a useful timescale, and every idea ever being pushed for M1A3.

So like many ideas it's been perfected just in time to no longer be useful at the moment, if the US had been fighting Islamic State on the ground more I suspect SOCOM would have managed to get some MRAPs fielded with it by now.

A while ago BTW I found references that the electric armor's actual R&D date stems from about 1990, and probably came out of SDI research at some point. Which makes sense in hindsight, imagine secret electric armor on a spacecraft whipple shield that vaporizes incoming debris to negate communist hypervelocity steel shrapnel...ect.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956

User avatar
Cykeisme
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2378
Joined: 2004-12-25 01:47pm
Contact:

Re: Electricity-conducting gasses for electroshock-conducting area-effect weapons?

Postby Cykeisme » 2017-02-24 10:38am

I know this is SLAM, but the OP does specify that the question is to make a plausible nonlethal weapon for a Star Wars RP.

Doesn't Star Wars have some "stun setting" on blasters that someone renders someone unconscious reliably without killing them, like the stormies used on Leia right at the start of Ep4?
Whatever the hell it is the stun setting shoots, I'm pretty sure it'll be easy to engineer a throwable device that shoots those stun rays out in every direction.

As to the question itself, this being SLAM, I think the realistic throwable taser that shoots lightweight conductive wires in all directions sounds about right.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Conductive spider-silk-like strands or conductive lamprey-mucus snot strands! Electro-sniveling!

Sea Skimmer wrote:..imagine secret electric armor on a spacecraft whipple shield that vaporizes incoming debris to negate communist hypervelocity steel shrapnel
You guys have this shit down to an art, I have no idea how you do it.
"..history has shown the best defense against heavy cavalry are pikemen, so aircraft should mount lances on their noses and fly in tight squares to fend off bombers". - RedImperator

"ha ha, raping puppies is FUN!" - Johonebesus

"It would just be Unicron with pew pew instead of nom nom". - Vendetta, explaining his justified disinterest in the idea of the movie Allspark affecting the Death Star

User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 36918
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB
Contact:

Re: Electricity-conducting gasses for electroshock-conducting area-effect weapons?

Postby Sea Skimmer » 2017-02-28 04:51pm

Cykeisme wrote:I know this is SLAM, but the OP does specify that the question is to make a plausible nonlethal weapon for a Star Wars RP.

Doesn't Star Wars have some "stun setting" on blasters that someone renders someone unconscious reliably without killing them, like the stormies used on Leia right at the start of Ep4?
Whatever the hell it is the stun setting shoots, I'm pretty sure it'll be easy to engineer a throwable device that shoots those stun rays out in every direction.


Yeah, but it might end up fairly big and hard to throw. It may require geometry which does not scale down. That was why I didn't consider it earlier, also cause Shroom wanted electric, otherwise that microwave active denial system (which can be notionally scaled down in physics, just not at all with RL tech) mounted on your weapon, plus a laser blinder, would totally be the way to go. It won't work on anyone electrically insulated, but nor would any kind of taser. Also unlike a taser microwaves can penetrate glass into rooms and such.

You guys have this shit down to an art, I have no idea how you do it.


Ha, well really its just connecting the dots, in both cases. The result will be better the more and crazier things you know certainly. The other thing is just always remember, whatever people do, other people will try to come up with countermeasures too.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956


Return to “Science, Logic, And Morality”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest