Is it possible to be friends with a minor?

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TithonusSyndrome
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Is it possible to be friends with a minor?

Post by TithonusSyndrome »

A couple of years ago I went to visit a friend of mine on Vancouver Island, where for the first time I had the opportunity to spend time with his kids out and around their acreage. I'm considerably less fond of children than average but I guess they were nice enough, and they sure liked me; it may have made a difference that I was in their company voluntarily instead of being obliged to spend time with them the way my parents might have with younger relatives. When I left though, it struck me as funny that there wasn't really any good single word to describe my relationship with them - were they my "friends"?

Flash forward to the present day and I'm watching the trailer for the movie "Lamb", a recent adaptation of a novel by Bonnie Nadzam, about a preteen girl and a sadsack divorcee who strike up an unlikely friendship. You don't need to see the trailer or the movie in order to gain context for this conversation, but if you do then I insist you make an extra effort to avoid the comments section, because literally nobody there can accept the distant possibility that their relationship isn't sexual or predatory. They almost seem reassured by the conventional notion of the man being a pedophile, as though their friendship were somehow more upsetting than that for some reason.

This topic isn't about my relationships or a movie or a novel in specific, though; it's about the feasibility, once you've accounted for all the ordinary prerequisites for friendship like common interest and mutual respect and comparable intellect, of being friends with a minor. Is it possible, but almost entirely hypothetically so, and if not, what is the youngest person you think you could or should be friends in the full and proper sense of the word with?
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Re: Is it possible to be friends with a minor?

Post by Borgholio »

At my age, being friends with a minor is not likely for two main reasons. First, different worldview. Someone who is 17 is literally less than half my age. They were raised in a different time and look at life in a different way than I do. I was raised differently and I have different priorities being 37 than I did when I was 16 or 17. Second, the "creep" factor. I'm old enough to be the father of a minor. That right there adds a subconscious "daddy" factor to it.

Now that doesn't mean I can't share activities with a minor, such as gaming, love of the outdoors, art, or anything like that. But it would be as more of a mentor / mentee relationship.
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Re: Is it possible to be friends with a minor?

Post by TithonusSyndrome »

Not to be obtuse, but what exactly do you mean by "the creep factor"? I think we all pretty well have some intuitive understanding of what the phrase means and understand your point, but I kind of think the "creep factor" is an obvious issue right from the get-go and was hoping there'd be more deconstruction of it and whether or not it could be circumvented.
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Re: Is it possible to be friends with a minor?

Post by Elheru Aran »

I think it's a matter of parity/equality. Adults, in general, are not going to be on equal ground with minors. In a specific setting they can be-- for example, playing a game of 40K together-- but only in that setting are they on equal ground. In general, it would be odd for an adult to share activities, hang out, and be intimate (in a non-physical, non-romantic sense) with a minor, given the difference in maturity level.

To draw a comparison, it would be strange if I hung out all the time with the neighborhood kids, riding around on bikes with them, talking about their various shenanigans and drama, bitching about my own issues with them. Because we're just not compatible like that. I have things to do, responsibilities, etc. They don't, because they aren't at the age and maturity level to have and deal with such. Our shared experiences will be limited as a result. If I visit their house once and they have me play a round of CoD on the XBox, that's one thing. If I made a repeated habit of it, this would seem strange and immature of me, given the social circle that I am choosing to hang out in.

Mentor/mentee relationships are different in that they acknowledge a lack of parity. The mentor has more life experience and responsibility, and is theoretically capable of helping the mentee grow into their own. Other social contexts are appropriate-- for example, your personal experience in visiting friends and hanging out with their kids. Note the order of that sentence-- your primary reason for being there was visiting your friends. That the children had a good time with you was a bonus, but you weren't there for *them* to start with.
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Re: Is it possible to be friends with a minor?

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

I would say it is possible under certain circumstances. For instance, I am 24 but I'm good friends with some of the 16/17 year olds who are junior members of my astronomical society. I would also say I'm friends with some of the Explorer Scouts (14-18) who also help at the Cub Scout pack I'm a leader at.

I think if you're relatively close in age it's feasible. Once you reach the point that Borgholio mentioned, about being old enough to be their parent, it becomes considerably less feasible. But I wouldn't say it's impossible, just unlikely.
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Re: Is it possible to be friends with a minor?

Post by Borgholio »

I guess the best way to explain it would be feeling like a father towards someone who is not my son / daughter. I personally might find it difficult to be "buddies" with a boy or a girl who is unrelated, since (at least for me) there would be a paternal instinct involved with someone that young, and as you put it, the implied accusation of pedophilia if I was close friends with a young girl (or boy, as the case may be).

Edit - the others did a better job of explaining it than I did. :)
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Re: Is it possible to be friends with a minor?

Post by K. A. Pital »

It's OK to have friends in the younger generation just as it's ok to have them among the older generation. I think there's some difficulty compared to same-age friendships. That's it.
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Re: Is it possible to be friends with a minor?

Post by TheFeniX »

Elheru Aran wrote:I think it's a matter of parity/equality. Adults, in general, are not going to be on equal ground with minors. In a specific setting they can be-- for example, playing a game of 40K together-- but only in that setting are they on equal ground. In general, it would be odd for an adult to share activities, hang out, and be intimate (in a non-physical, non-romantic sense) with a minor, given the difference in maturity level.
You stole my post. Gaming across multiple genres over the years I've been the dumb kid who was "Friends" with people in their 30 and even 60s. I am now the 30-year-old who sometimes has "friends" in the 16 all the way to the 60 range. But aside from a given hobby, the idea that we're going to mesh all that well in public is a hard sell.

Minors are an even worse-case because you can be held legally liable for "corruption." They are at that age where peer-pressure is at it's greatest and there just can't be a lot of parity there. I am "friends" with my Nephew. He's 14 and doesn't know a whole lot (so... he's 14). He is constantly trying to impress me and my friends. And since he's at an age where self-esteem is pretty damn important, we measure our responses because, even at our age, there's not much we can't stomp him at. Kids need role-models more than they need older friends. My friends and I don't hang out to be role-models. We hang out to have fun and talk shit.

I will say the idea that these relationship are predatory as a matter of course is bullshit. I'd bet good money that idea applies pretty much only when the older person is a man.
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Re: Is it possible to be friends with a minor?

Post by TithonusSyndrome »

it's about the feasibility, once you've accounted for all the ordinary prerequisites for friendship like common interest and mutual respect and comparable intellect
I wouldn't want to be friends with an immature and stupid adult, either. Maybe my sense of this question has been shaped by the movie trailer, where the girl is one of those fictional "wise beyond her years" tropes, but I'm just assuming that all your ordinary standards for friendship have already been met in asking this.
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Re: Is it possible to be friends with a minor?

Post by Broomstick »

Yes, it's possible for an adult to be friends with a minor but it's a different relationship that being friends with someone close to your age or someone in your parent's generation. The dynamics do change with enough of a gap in years.

I think in some ways it's easier for grandparent-aged adults to be friends/mentors with minors than younger adults because by the time you hit your 60's you've gotten more experience with different people and different relationships.

And yes, there are people who will always assume there is something "pervy" or bad going on, just as there are people who assume men and women can never be friends due to sexual tension or some such. I think it says something negative about them that they have that mindset.
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Re: Is it possible to be friends with a minor?

Post by Lord Revan »

Broomstick wrote:Yes, it's possible for an adult to be friends with a minor but it's a different relationship that being friends with someone close to your age or someone in your parent's generation. The dynamics do change with enough of a gap in years.

I think in some ways it's easier for grandparent-aged adults to be friends/mentors with minors than younger adults because by the time you hit your 60's you've gotten more experience with different people and different relationships.
probably but then it's not impossible for younger adults be that was well just more difficult. I think the key in such relationships is to remember that the older person is the more mature one (or at least should be) and thus is responsible for not encouraging bad behaviour. So you have remember sometimes you have to say "that's not ok" and doing so doesn't mean you're not the younger person's friend but rather you're stopping them from doing something that you know they'll regret later as friends should.
And yes, there are people who will always assume there is something "pervy" or bad going on, just as there are people who assume men and women can never be friends due to sexual tension or some such. I think it says something negative about them that they have that mindset.
I suspect they belive that way because they cannot think of a "friendship" that isn't for obvious personal gain so in their mind the joy of imparting your lifer leason to some in an effort to make sure they don't repeat it must be an excuse for something darker as "joy of helping" isn't an obvious personal gain.
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Re: Is it possible to be friends with a minor?

Post by Simon_Jester »

Yeah. The concept of friendship has... shallowed... a bit in the past several decades. This is not to say there aren't deep, meaningful friendships, or that we don't see them portrayed in art today. But there's an increased emphasis on friends who are at the same stage of life and have very similar experiences, which means there's less to be gained by interchange with the friend.

It may be because schooling has gone from a rare thing to a universal experience in developed societies, so we all spend our formative years surrounded by people who are more or less exactly our same age, and socialize almost entirely with people our same age, with only a minimal adult presence and virtually no presence of younger children. Conversely, all the children are 'swept aside' from our day to day existence to some extent because they're at school, and also because of them being kept at home when not at school because of "stranger danger!"

So our social world has become far more age-segregated than it used to be. And that is now the formative experience of nearly everyone alive. And it may be influencing our concept of what kind of friendships do and don't form socially.
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Re: Is it possible to be friends with a minor?

Post by K. A. Pital »

Everyone alive or just First World?
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Re: Is it possible to be friends with a minor?

Post by TheFeniX »

Simon_Jester wrote:Yeah. The concept of friendship has... shallowed... a bit in the past several decades. This is not to say there aren't deep, meaningful friendships, or that we don't see them portrayed in art today. But there's an increased emphasis on friends who are at the same stage of life and have very similar experiences, which means there's less to be gained by interchange with the friend.
Has the school system changed all that much, at least in it's general function? My parents went to the same "type" of primary education I did. Except it was a lot more white as segregation was a thing and much more affluent as those were the days when you could wall off from people without money and ISDs in urban areas could pull from a much smaller land area. Busing was not a thing.

It's a lot easier to end up staying friends with people in your ethnic and socioeconomic group. So, I'd bet money I had a lot more "shallow" friendships than my parents. But I'd also bet money I had a lot more friends.

And parents don't help as they will constantly apply their own biases to your friends. Going to school where I went: you had Hispanic friends. You just did. But a lot of those friends didn't get invited to birthday parties, etc and that wasn't because of the kids. My parents didn't care, but out of our "groups" that were pretty damn mixed race: many of the birthday parties were monochromatic.
It may be because schooling has gone from a rare thing to a universal experience in developed societies, so we all spend our formative years surrounded by people who are more or less exactly our same age, and socialize almost entirely with people our same age, with only a minimal adult presence and virtually no presence of younger children. Conversely, all the children are 'swept aside' from our day to day existence to some extent because they're at school, and also because of them being kept at home when not at school because of "stranger danger!"
I don't see how that's all that different than in the past. Kids with money will end up around other kids with money in schools. Poor kids ended up working with the family and other poor kids. At the least, everyone gets a chance to intermingle at a young age. This is probably why kids are fairly liberal growing up and it isn't until they hit the work-force that more conservative opinions start to take over.
So our social world has become far more age-segregated than it used to be. And that is now the formative experience of nearly everyone alive. And it may be influencing our concept of what kind of friendships do and don't form socially.
I would say The Internet has more to do with this than the school system. I doubt many social sites will link based on ethnicity or money. And you don't even have to add those in. But age verification is a thing everywhere and makes for an easy way to connect with other people.
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Re: Is it possible to be friends with a minor?

Post by Simon_Jester »

K. A. Pital wrote:Everyone alive or just First World?
My argument explicitly referenced "developed societies," and I'm sorry I didn't reference it more times.
TheFeniX wrote:Has the school system changed all that much, at least in it's general function? My parents went to the same "type" of primary education I did. Except it was a lot more white as segregation was a thing and much more affluent as those were the days when you could wall off from people without money and ISDs in urban areas could pull from a much smaller land area. Busing was not a thing.
That's my point. Not only has schooling been age-segregating us (we being people mostly between the ages of 20 and 40), it also age-segregated our parents and grandparents. In the developed world this has been going on almost as long as anyone can remember, and as a result our society has largely forgotten what it's like to have an integrated social network that includes people of all ages, including social ties between the elderly, the children, and the working-age adults in the middle.

The only ties which have survived atomization are family ties and even those are looser than they used to be.
I don't see how that's all that different than in the past. Kids with money will end up around other kids with money in schools. Poor kids ended up working with the family and other poor kids. At the least, everyone gets a chance to intermingle at a young age. This is probably why kids are fairly liberal growing up and it isn't until they hit the work-force that more conservative opinions start to take over.
It's not different than the recent past (i.e. the last fifty years). It's quite different than things were 100 or more years ago. Sharply age-segregated communities are an old thing in terms of our personal experience, but new in terms of the human experience. It was the latter I was trying to get at.

It's not just a wall between those over 18 and those under 18. It's that if you were born in 1985, almost all your friends were also born in the 1980s. And likewise with 1975 and the '70s, and 1965 and the '60s... there are exceptions to that pattern, but that still represents the norm.

Prior to the 20th century this was not so much the norm, I think.
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Re: Is it possible to be friends with a minor?

Post by Kingmaker »

Prior to the 20th century this was not so much the norm, I think.
Do you have any basis for this beyond your intuition? Universal schooling may be new, but age-segregation of labor isn't necessarily, and that will have much the same effect.
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Re: Is it possible to be friends with a minor?

Post by Simon_Jester »

Firstly, living in small towns and villages was much more common before 1900, and small town social networks tend to be more crosslinked, providing greater opportunities to get to know people who are significantly older or younger than yourself. It's easy to have no friends more than a year older or younger than yourself when you're one of a thousand fourteen year olds in town; harder when you're one of, oh, eight fourteen year olds.

Secondly, instead of having massed schooling where children are grouped into age-segregated 'grades,' education tended to follow more of an 'older teaches younger' model, with older children minding younger ones, master craftsmen teaching apprentices, and so on. This, too, creates relationships and connections that cut across age lines. It still exists to an extent among working-age adults, but to a lesser extent because in modern society, people's work lives and social lives tend to be more segregated than in pre-industrial times.
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Re: Is it possible to be friends with a minor?

Post by Purple »

Another thing to consider is that back in those days families were much larger than they are now. Having 3+, even as many as 5-6 children was not uncommon. And thus the average human had to grow up with a lot of siblings of different ages and by virtue of that be exposed to all their entire social circle.
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Re: Is it possible to be friends with a minor?

Post by Lord Revan »

Purple wrote:Another thing to consider is that back in those days families were much larger than they are now. Having 3+, even as many as 5-6 children was not uncommon. And thus the average human had to grow up with a lot of siblings of different ages and by virtue of that be exposed to all their entire social circle.
there's also the thing that even when my parents were children (the 1950s and 1960s) it wasn't unheard of that grandparents lived in the same house or at least very close to the children (though obviously this was a lot more common in previous centuries) so you'd have a lot more contact with your grandparents.
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Re: Is it possible to be friends with a minor?

Post by Elheru Aran »

Lord Revan wrote:
Purple wrote:Another thing to consider is that back in those days families were much larger than they are now. Having 3+, even as many as 5-6 children was not uncommon. And thus the average human had to grow up with a lot of siblings of different ages and by virtue of that be exposed to all their entire social circle.
there's also the thing that even when my parents were children (the 1950s and 1960s) it wasn't unheard of that grandparents lived in the same house or at least very close to the children (though obviously this was a lot more common in previous centuries) so you'd have a lot more contact with your grandparents.
That's an inter-family relationship, though. A very different dynamic than friendship, which is voluntary.
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Re: Is it possible to be friends with a minor?

Post by Purple »

Elheru Aran wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:
Purple wrote:Another thing to consider is that back in those days families were much larger than they are now. Having 3+, even as many as 5-6 children was not uncommon. And thus the average human had to grow up with a lot of siblings of different ages and by virtue of that be exposed to all their entire social circle.
there's also the thing that even when my parents were children (the 1950s and 1960s) it wasn't unheard of that grandparents lived in the same house or at least very close to the children (though obviously this was a lot more common in previous centuries) so you'd have a lot more contact with your grandparents.
That's an inter-family relationship, though. A very different dynamic than friendship, which is voluntary.
It does however open you up to an even wider social circle of all your grandparents friends and their offspring.
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