Biofuels are a waste of time

[Broomstick]

Not necessarily - I only gas up once a week. So... at 7 minutes that around a half an hour a month.

Yeah you're lucky you have a short commute.

That, and amazing gas mileage....

[His Divine Shadow]

I have a 25-27km commute one way, I fill up less than once a week. I think I get 1.5 weeks on a tank. No idea what that translates into in gas mileage.

[Broomstick]

What's your tank capacity?

I get about 40 miles per gallon, which translates to 17 kilometers per liter.

[jwl]

I spend 0 minutes gassing up per month because I don't have a car.

I win.

[His Divine Shadow]

What's your tank capacity?

I get about 40 miles per gallon, which translates to 17 kilometers per liter.

I get around 35l when I fill up so it's probably a bit more than that, maybe its 40L.

[salm]

I spend 0 minutes gassing up per month because I don't have a car.

I win.

I have a car but spend 0 minutes gassing it up because my gf does that. I win.

[salm]

I spend 0 minutes gassing up per month because I don't have a car.

I win.

I have a car but spend 0 minutes gassing it up because my gf does that. I win.

Just speaking from our own experience, since we aim to save money on gasoline we frequently go to Costco on the way home from work or while running errands. The lines typically cause a 15 - 20 minute wait. It's worth it due to the price but it still (for us anyways) adds an additional hour a week give or take, since we fill up about 3 times a week. If we went to a normal gas station with no lines, it would take us down to about 10 minutes per fill-up, which still works out to half an hour per week. We don't usually run out specifically to get gas but when we do, that adds another 20-30 minutes (distance to go to Costco). Being able to plug in overnight and let it charge while I'm sleeping would save a noticeable amount of time in either case.

Hmm... ok, that´s a really long wait.
I was just wondering where the 15 minutes in the example came from. Are they real numbers or are they just guesstimates which are worth nothing.

[LaCroix]

Bigger car, 15.4 km/l. 250km daily commute together with my wife. (1.5 hours each way, 3-3.5 hours total per day).
Filling up for 5 mins along the way barely registers with me.
Filling up 5 times a month, about half an hour per month.

[His Divine Shadow]

shit that's a lot of driving

[LaCroix]

shit that's a lot of driving

That kind of commute is not uncommon in my area. That's why I scoff a bit at people saying a battery driven car is going to be viable. I need an electric that can make at least 200km (reserves are necessary for detours and stuff) at 130km/h top speed. I'm not quite sure a current tesla can do this, right now. And that is going to come with a serious price tag.

Also, I'd need either a serious quickcharge station near my work (doubful to happen, takes half an hour or so per charge, and probably constantly in use, which means I'd need to wait for an hour or more, losing work time, which is inacceptable) or a car that can recharge for the drive back during my 8h workday with the standard 240V outlet in the office garage, reliably.

And since the battery must survive 2 almost complete dis/recharge cycles per day, it means it would be dead or near dead in a year or two, going by the usual 1000 cycles lifespan. Which means a new battery every 2 years, which means about half a car of expenses ( I checked the prices once, I was not pleased.).

The same scenario would apply for the normal use for cars here - making a long trip somewhere at weekends. All in all, it makes a battery driven car completely unreasonable for anyone who isn't never leaving the cities, which means that person would be cheaper off and quicker using the subway.

[salm]

Here it appears to be slowly getting better with electrical charging stations. One opened right in front of my door and apparently you can charge for free at ALDI while shopping. According to ALDI they are quickchargers which charges your battery for about 80km in 30 minutes.
I´ve even seen a car recharging there now and then. Not very often, though.

[Borgholio]

I was just wondering where the 15 minutes in the example came from. Are they real numbers or are they just guesstimates which are worth nothing.

No, that's about normal for a wait time for Costco up in Lancaster, CA. That one has 8 lanes, each lane has 2 pumps in a row. On a typical day there are two people gassing up with three or four people in line behind them already so that's a good 15 minutes at least, sometimes more if the people in front of you are slow or have large tanks. Some days the line can be 6+ cars long and that's easily a 20-minute wait. It's worth it though since Costco can be more than 20 cents per gallon cheaper than most stations in the area, and we get cash back on top of that by using our Costco card.

[SCRawl]

I was just wondering where the 15 minutes in the example came from. Are they real numbers or are they just guesstimates which are worth nothing.

No, that's about normal for a wait time for Costco up in Lancaster, CA. That one has 8 lanes, each lane has 2 pumps in a row. On a typical day there are two people gassing up with three or four people in line behind them already so that's a good 15 minutes at least, sometimes more if the people in front of you are slow or have large tanks. Some days the line can be 6+ cars long and that's easily a 20-minute wait. It's worth it though since Costco can be more than 20 cents per gallon cheaper than most stations in the area, and we get cash back on top of that by using our Costco card.

The arrangement is the same at all of the Costco locations with gas stations I've visited, and I've been to about six of them (while driving across Canada a couple of times). Depending on my energy level, I can be so cheap that instead of idling my car, I kill the engine, put it in neutral, and push it ahead when the line moves.

[His Divine Shadow]

shit that's a lot of driving

That kind of commute is not uncommon in my area. That's why I scoff a bit at people saying a battery driven car is going to be viable. I need an electric that can make at least 200km (reserves are necessary for detours and stuff) at 130km/h top speed. I'm not quite sure a current tesla can do this, right now. And that is going to come with a serious price tag.

Also, I'd need either a serious quickcharge station near my work (doubful to happen, takes half an hour or so per charge, and probably constantly in use, which means I'd need to wait for an hour or more, losing work time, which is inacceptable) or a car that can recharge for the drive back during my 8h workday with the standard 240V outlet in the office garage, reliably.

And since the battery must survive 2 almost complete dis/recharge cycles per day, it means it would be dead or near dead in a year or two, going by the usual 1000 cycles lifespan. Which means a new battery every 2 years, which means about half a car of expenses ( I checked the prices once, I was not pleased.).

The same scenario would apply for the normal use for cars here - making a long trip somewhere at weekends. All in all, it makes a battery driven car completely unreasonable for anyone who isn't never leaving the cities, which means that person would be cheaper off and quicker using the subway.

Still you're down in more densely populated continental europe and I'm up here in Finlands countryside (and moving from the city cut my commute in half, ironically).

If I had a commute like that I'd long for self driving cars.

[Borgholio]

If I had a commute like that I'd long for self driving cars.

My commute is an hour each way and I'm really antsy to get my Model 3 so I can get the autopilot. That will make my compute SO much easier and less stressful.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

That kind of commute is not uncommon in my area. That's why I scoff a bit at people saying a battery driven car is going to be viable. I need an electric that can make at least 200km (reserves are necessary for detours and stuff) at 130km/h top speed. I'm not quite sure a current tesla can do this, right now. And that is going to come with a serious price tag.

A Tesla S90 can do 288 miles on the EPA cycle. This would cover your 400km round trip with range to spare, and that's using EPA numbers which are very conservative and which most drivers can easily beat with a light foot on the throttle.

Also, I'd need either a serious quickcharge station near my work (doubful to happen, takes half an hour or so per charge, and probably constantly in use, which means I'd need to wait for an hour or more, losing work time, which is inacceptable) or a car that can recharge for the drive back during my 8h workday with the standard 240V outlet in the office garage, reliably.

Once 200 miles is the norm starting next year, this will no longer be necessary for yours or anyone else's commute. Only traveling salespeople with a large territory will need more range. Super chargers will be nice to have, but it's a myth that they are necessary for electric cars to be viable and another myth that drivers will regularly be twiddling their thumbs for 30 minutes waiting for the car to charge. The only time they will be used are for long road trips, which are rare for most people. It's been years since the last time I made a trip like that by car, and that was to Los Angeles, which would only require 1 charge during which I could eat lunch or dinner.

And since the battery must survive 2 almost complete dis/recharge cycles per day, it means it would be dead or near dead in a year or two, going by the usual 1000 cycles lifespan. Which means a new battery every 2 years, which means about half a car of expenses ( I checked the prices once, I was not pleased.).

EV batteries are typically warrantied for 8 years with unlimited mileage, and heavy users have not reported the kind of drop-off that you speculate here. And even if your battery needs to be replaced in 8 years, you'll be paying the replacement cost 8 years from now.

The same scenario would apply for the normal use for cars here - making a long trip somewhere at weekends. All in all, it makes a battery driven car completely unreasonable for anyone who isn't never leaving the cities, which means that person would be cheaper off and quicker using the subway.

There are legitimate reasons not to own an EV, but aside from your last point about a person/family that regularly makes weekend trips of more than 200 miles and only owns one car, you have yet to list any.

[His Divine Shadow]

An issue I've heard raised is how well they do in cold climates, such as how being in -30C weather might affect the batteries lifespan and capacity, and how well the motor etc handles the cold

[Borgholio]

The main issue is the battery. Most batteries lose power when they get cold, this has been a problem with typical car batteries for decades. A change in chemistry might work but for now the only thing that can be done is to park either in a heated garage, or remote-start the heater before you unplug so the battery has time to warm up a bit.

[Broomstick]

An issue I've heard raised is how well they do in cold climates, such as how being in -30C weather might affect the batteries lifespan and capacity, and how well the motor etc handles the cold

My sister, who lives in Buffalo and drives an electric car to and from work, has told me that she does note the charge lasting a shorter time in the winter than in the summer for the same drive. As her car has the ability to burn gas when the charge gets to a certain point that isn't a crushing concern, she's never been stranded. Even so, she seldom if ever purchases gasoline in the spring, summer and fall but does burn some during the winter.

So far, she has not noticed a problem with the battery's lifespan, just that it doesn't hold a charge as well in cold weather. Actual vehicle performance seems identical once the car is started.

The car spends the night in a sort of heated garage (above freezing temperatures) but is parked outside all day while she is at work.

So far, it has worked out very well for her, does what she needs it to do, and she's happy with it.

There are some nice things about the electric cars, but let's be honest, gas-burners are more mature as an industry at the moment.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

There are some nice things about the electric cars, but let's be honest, gas-burners are more mature as an industry at the moment.

No argument there. I'm the biggest booster of EVs that I know, but I still drive a gas-burning Honda Fit for the present. While EVs are already practical for most consumers (especially families in warm climates who own a second car for long trips), it will be at least 5 years before they can break-even financially for the average driver without subsidies, and probably closer to 10.

[jwl]

If the battery stops working when it gets cold, isn't a simple solution to just drop it in a dewar with a small heater?

[Broomstick]

The battery doesn't stop working, it just doesn't work as well.

And no, you won't just "drop" it into anything - the batteries in an electric car aren't something you can just pop in and out like in a flashlight/torch.

[jwl]

The battery doesn't stop working, it just doesn't work as well.

And no, you won't just "drop" it into anything - the batteries in an electric car aren't something you can just pop in and out like in a flashlight/torch.

What I meant is that the batteries are kept inside a dewar as a permanent feature inside the car.

[Broomstick]

Well, OK, that will work when it's on a charger... but when the car is sitting outside for 8 or 10 hours at a time where would the power for that heater come from? The battery? But then you'll run the battery down keeping the battery warm!

[jwl]

Well, OK, that will work when it's on a charger... but when the car is sitting outside for 8 or 10 hours at a time where would the power for that heater come from? The battery? But then you'll run the battery down keeping the battery warm!

I'm thinking perhaps a very small heater that doesn't really run the battery down very much, or perhaps none at all. Dewars can keep liquid nitrogen cold for ages, so I wouldn't think something of that style would have much difficulty holding a 30 degree temperature difference for a few hours.