Scientists suspect alien structure around star.

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The Romulan Republic
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Scientists suspect alien structure around star.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morn ... onal_pop_b
“It was kind of unbelievable that it was real data,” said Yale University astronomer Tabetha Boyajian. “We were scratching our heads. For any idea that came up there was always something that would argue against it.”

She was talking to the New Scientist about KIC 8462852, a distant star with a very unusual flickering habit. Something was making the star dim drastically every few years, and she wasn’t sure what.

Boyajian wrote up a paper on possible explanations for the star’s bizarre behavior, and it was published recently in the Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society. But she also sent her data to fellow astronomer Jason Wright, a Penn State University researcher who helped developed a protocol for seeking signs of unearthly civilization, wondering what he would make of it.

To Wright, it looked like the kind of star he and his colleagues had been waiting for. If none of the ordinary reasons for the star’s flux quite seemed to fit, perhaps an extraordinary one was in order.

Aliens.

Or, to be more specific, something built by aliens — a “swarm of megastructures,” as he told the Atlantic, likely outfitted with solar panels to collect energy from the star.

[No, we haven’t discovered alien megastructures around a distant star]

“When [Boyajian] showed me the data, I was fascinated by how crazy it looked,” Wright said. “Aliens should always be the very last hypothesis you consider, but this looked like something you would expect an alien civilization to build.”

To be sure, both Boyajian and Wright believe the possibility of alien megastructures around KIC 8462852 is very, very remote. It’s worthy of hypothesis, Wright told Slate, “but we should also approach it skeptically.”

Yet compared to the vast majority of supposed sightings of signs of extraterrestrial life, this one has some credibility. Here’s why:

KIC 8462852 was discovered through Planet Hunters, a citizen science program launched at Yale University in 2010. Using data from the Kepler Space Telescope, volunteers sift through records of brightness levels from roughly 150,000 stars beyond our solar system.

Ordinarily, planet hunters are looking for the telltale drops in brightness that happen when a planet crosses in front of its sun. That’s how we identify planets now — brief interruptions in the progress of light as it makes its way toward Earth. Not a presence, but an absence. Already the project has uncovered a few confirmed planets and at least several dozen more planet candidates.

But one finding from the program was unlike anything else scientists had ever seen. Volunteers marked it out as unusual in 2011, right after the program started: a star whose light curves seemed to dip tremendously at irregular intervals. At one point, about 800 days into the survey, the star’s brightness dropped by 15 percent. Later, around day 1,500, it dropped by a shocking 22 percent. Whatever was causing the dips, it could not have been a planet — even a Jupiter-sized planet, the biggest in our solar system, would only dim this star by 1 percent as it transited across, Slate reported. (The Kepler telescope was badly damaged in 2013, so the researchers don’t have data from more recent dips, if there were any).


This artist rendition provided by NASA shows the Kepler space telescope. (NASA/AP)
Another natural force must be at work here.

In their paper, Boyajian and her colleagues went to great lengths to review and refute the more obvious explanations for the odd display. It wasn’t a mistake, caused by a problem the telescope or their data processors — they checked their data with the Kepler mission team, and found no problems for nearby stars when they checked their light curves against neighboring sources.


It wasn’t the star’s fault either. Some young stars, still in the process of accumulating mass, will be surrounded by a whirl of orbiting dust and rock and gas that can blur or block their light. But this star wasn’t young, Boyajian found. Nor did it look like other kinds of stars that demonstrate this light variability.

Something must be blocking the star’s light from the outside, the paper concluded — maybe catastrophic crashes in the asteroid belt, maybe a giant collision in the planetary system that spewed debris into the solar system, maybe small proto-planets shrouded in a Pig-Pen-like cloud of dust. But every explanation was lacking in some way, with the exception of one: Perhaps a family of comets orbiting KIC 8462852 had been disturbed by the passage of another nearby star. That would have sent chunks of ice and rock flying inward, explaining both the dips and their irregularity.

It would be “an extraordinary coincidence,” as the Atlantic put it, for that to have happened at exactly the right moment for humans to catch it on a telescope that’s only been aloft since 2009. “That’s a narrow band of time, cosmically speaking.”

Then again, KIC 8462852 itself is extraordinary. Of the 150,000 or so stars within view of the Kepler Telescope, it is the only one to flicker and dim in this unusual way.

Boyajian’s paper only looks at “natural” explanations for the phenomenon, she told the Atlantic. But she’s open to looking at unnatural ones, which is where Wright and his “swarm of megastructures” theory come in.

Scientists — at least, the ones who like to theorize about these things — have long said that an advanced alien civilization would be marked by its ability to harness the energy from its sun (rather than scrabbling over its planet’s resources like us puny earthlings). They envision something like a Dyson Sphere, a hypothetical megastructure first proposed by physicist Freeman Dyson that would orbit or even encompass a star, capturing its power and putting it to use.

Obviously, a Dyson sphere has never been spotted in real life, though they’re all over science fiction. But if one were to exist, it wouldn’t look like a metal ball around the sun — it would probably comprise a chain of smaller satellites or space habitats, something that would block its star’s light as weirdly and irregularly as the light of KIC 8462852 has been blocked. That’s why researchers who are interested in finding alien life are so excited about the finding.

Boyajian, Wright and Andrew Siemion, the director of the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence Research Center at the University of California, Berkeley, are now working on getting access to the massive radio dishes they can point at the star in search of the kinds of radio waves usually emitted by technology.

If they find them — well, that would be very big and very, very unlikely news.


Of course, the star in question is about 1,481 light-years away from Earth — meaning that even if aliens did create a giant solar panel complex out there, they did so in the 6th century, while we were emptying chamber pots out of second story windows and fighting off the first bubonic plague pandemic.

Quite a bit has changed on Earth since then. Who knows what could have happened around KIC 8462852?
Now, normally I'd expect this to go in the crazy kook pile, but this is, I believe, a fairly mainstream paper reporting on the investigations of actual scientists from prestigious/notable universities who themselves acknowledge how unlikely the alien hypothesis is. Anyway, we've got quite a lot of skeptical and scientific-minded people here, so I thought I'd run it by the SDN crowd and see what you make of it.

Me, I regard it as a likely long shot, but I'd be lying if I said I don't want it to be true.
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Re: Scientists suspect alien structure around star.

Post by Zeropoint »

I'd say first, don't get excited about it at this point, and second, collect more data before you start deciding what it is. So far, all we've got is an unexplained phenomenon--you shouldn't jump from "I don't know what that is" to "therefore it's aliens!"

I would like it to be aliens, though. :)
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Re: Scientists suspect alien structure around star.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

As I said, my attitude is basically "Its a long shot, but not completely without credibility, and I hope its true".

Some scientists in the article take a similar attitude.

Anyway, as the article says, they're trying to follow up on the "collect more data" part by using radio dishes "...in search of the kinds of radio waves usually emitted by technology."

Best of luck to them, though I can't quite bring myself to believe that anything will come of it.
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Re: Scientists suspect alien structure around star.

Post by salm »

Zeropoint wrote:I'd say first, don't get excited about it at this point, and second, collect more data before you start deciding what it is. So far, all we've got is an unexplained phenomenon--you shouldn't jump from "I don't know what that is" to "therefore it's aliens!"

I would like it to be aliens, though. :)
I never understood this mindset which appears to be wide spread in the scientific community. Why shouldn´t you get excited? Because the possibility of it being aliens is very low? Would you die of disappointment or shame if you got excited now and later it turned out to be just a bunch of rocks passing in a weird formation? Would you vanish into a rabbit hole because some dumb ass could laugh at you for getting excited about this?

I mean, getting excited is something different than saying "we found dyson sphere". But getting excited about a phenomenon that looks like it could be one, however miniscule the chance, seems like a pretty good reason to get excited.
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Re: Scientists suspect alien structure around star.

Post by Nephtys »

Because science is not about pursuing excitement, but skeptically and rigorously examining outlandish claims. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Alien megastructure due to odd star flickering? Seriously?

Sensationalism dilutes good science.
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Re: Scientists suspect alien structure around star.

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Nothing except entertainment "is about pursuing excitement".

If you prefer boredom you can of course artificially keep your excitement level down.
But there´s really nothing keeping you from pursuing things with excitement and rigor at the same time.

Equating sensationalism to excitement seems pretty silly.
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Re: Scientists suspect alien structure around star.

Post by Nephtys »

You could say the same sort of nonsense about a lot of stuff.
Long object found on top of mountain. Oh, it MUST be Noah's Ark!
Weird peice of stained cloth. Jesus's Face was on it!

Or more relevant to those crazy sensationalist Facebook articles... remember these?
EU Scientists break speed of light (it was an instrument maintenance error)
NASA plans to build warp drive ship (insert very, VERY hypothetical speculation plus a snazzy 3d render)

The more sensationalism that seeps into the public view that ends up of course being utter nonsense, the more they're unable to discern real advancements with utter tripe that reduces actual trust in real science.

If you want to respect the chance of this thing being extraordinary, let it show itself on it's own merit with further inspection. Not be yet another 'FTL barrier broken'.
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Re: Scientists suspect alien structure around star.

Post by Channel72 »

The alternative explanation about the swarm of comets seems just as plausible, even if it's an unlikely coincidence. Or it could also be some as yet unknown rare natural phenomenon - recall the earlier discovery of Pulsars, which were originally a potential candidate for "alien civilization" due to the regularity of the emitted pulses. But then it turned out to be natural phenomena.

That said, with the recent discovery of so many exoplanets in the last decade, and the likely possibility that water is ubiquitous throughout the Universe, I wouldn't be that surprised to find evidence of distant alien civilizations. Still, I would be pretty fucking surprised to find evidence of such a civilization only like, 2,000 light years away. That would be... really shocking and even a bit disturbing. I'd expect Kardashev-2 civilizations to be widely spread out - maybe like less than 1 or 2 per galaxy, if they were to exist at all. If this is actually a Kardashev-2 civilization, and it's only 2,000 light years away, it would drastically change the sort of expectations we have about ... pretty much everything.
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Re: Scientists suspect alien structure around star.

Post by LaCroix »

@Channel72
You are right, K2 would be quite spread out...

If it is indeed an alien civilization, then they might very well be the only K2 in our galaxy. We just happen to be the (unlucky?) K0.7 (We don't rate a full K1, yet.) civilization that happens to spring up in their backyard, so to speak. Given the distance, they wouldn't even know that we are here, yet, and won't for another ~1900 years, unless they happen to come by for a visit, going "Whoa! Look what we stumbled upon!".
A minute's thought suggests that the very idea of this is stupid. A more detailed examination raises the possibility that it might be an answer to the question "how could the Germans win the war after the US gets involved?" - Captain Seafort, in a thread proposing a 1942 'D-Day' in Quiberon Bay

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Re: Scientists suspect alien structure around star.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

First of all, the star in question is not 2,000 light years away, but just under 1,500. But that's just a technicality.

Anyway, why would it be unlucky for us? Unless someone gets around the light speed limit somehow, these completely hypothetical aliens will never be a realistic threat to us, and vice versa. We wouldn't even be able to engage in any real communication with them.

The worst that I see happening, realistically, from finding evidence of an alien civilization here is some fringe Earth religious group doing something crazy. And that happens all the time anyway.
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Re: Scientists suspect alien structure around star.

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Nephtys wrote:You could say the same sort of nonsense about a lot of stuff.
Long object found on top of mountain. Oh, it MUST be Noah's Ark!
Weird peice of stained cloth. Jesus's Face was on it!

Or more relevant to those crazy sensationalist Facebook articles... remember these?
EU Scientists break speed of light (it was an instrument maintenance error)
NASA plans to build warp drive ship (insert very, VERY hypothetical speculation plus a snazzy 3d render)

The more sensationalism that seeps into the public view that ends up of course being utter nonsense, the more they're unable to discern real advancements with utter tripe that reduces actual trust in real science.

If you want to respect the chance of this thing being extraordinary, let it show itself on it's own merit with further inspection. Not be yet another 'FTL barrier broken'.
Why are you saying "MUST BE"? Posting that as a reply to my posts makes no sense.
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Re: Scientists suspect alien structure around star.

Post by LaCroix »

The Romulan Republic wrote:First of all, the star in question is not 2,000 light years away, but just under 1,500. But that's just a technicality.

Anyway, why would it be unlucky for us? Unless someone gets around the light speed limit somehow, these completely hypothetical aliens will never be a realistic threat to us, and vice versa. We wouldn't even be able to engage in any real communication with them.

The worst that I see happening, realistically, from finding evidence of an alien civilization here is some fringe Earth religious group doing something crazy. And that happens all the time anyway.
Since there have been some news in the space propulsion area regarding reactionless drives and alcubierre, lately, I'm not so sure about the light barrier holding up forever, anymore.
A minute's thought suggests that the very idea of this is stupid. A more detailed examination raises the possibility that it might be an answer to the question "how could the Germans win the war after the US gets involved?" - Captain Seafort, in a thread proposing a 1942 'D-Day' in Quiberon Bay

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Re: Scientists suspect alien structure around star.

Post by Channel72 »

LaCroix wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:First of all, the star in question is not 2,000 light years away, but just under 1,500. But that's just a technicality.

Anyway, why would it be unlucky for us? Unless someone gets around the light speed limit somehow, these completely hypothetical aliens will never be a realistic threat to us, and vice versa. We wouldn't even be able to engage in any real communication with them.

The worst that I see happening, realistically, from finding evidence of an alien civilization here is some fringe Earth religious group doing something crazy. And that happens all the time anyway.
Since there have been some news in the space propulsion area regarding reactionless drives and alcubierre, lately, I'm not so sure about the light barrier holding up forever, anymore.
Even if FTL remains forever impossible, it doesn't matter. A ~2,000 year travel time (or even, say 10,000 year travel time, assuming some fraction of c traveling speed) is nothing for the likely digital intelligences available to a K2 civilization.
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Re: Scientists suspect alien structure around star.

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Channel72 wrote:Even if FTL remains forever impossible, it doesn't matter. A ~2,000 year travel time (or even, say 10,000 year travel time, assuming some fraction of c traveling speed) is nothing for the likely digital intelligences available to a K2 civilization.
Are we really sure about that? 2,000-10,000 years is a long time for technology to survive. Sure, maybe some AI could *exist* that long, but it'd need to have it's hardware replaced and be powered by various reactors which would need maintenance and replacement over its lifetime.
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Re: Scientists suspect alien structure around star.

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

I think this thread title is absurdly misleading, since pretty much every scientist I've heard quoted about this says at worst it's some odd natural phenomenon we don't understand yet. We are workign with quite limited data after all.
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Re: Scientists suspect alien structure around star.

Post by Dominus Atheos »

Better article:
Something—we’re not sure what—is radically dimming a star’s light
No satisfying explanations, but guesses range from comets to colliding planets.


NASA’s Kepler spacecraft, designed to discover planets orbiting distant stars, has turned up something that’s decidedly not a planet. And at this point, that’s pretty much all we can say about it—except that it’s a mystery.

A star that Kepler has been observing, KIC 8462852, underwent several periods of dimming. This is exactly what Kepler was built to look for, because a slight dimming in a star’s light can indicate the presence of a planet passing in front of it. But this is no slight dip in the star’s light output—it dims by a full 20 percent. That's way too much change for any transiting planet to produce. So, as two researchers titled their paper, “Where’s the Flux?”

The paper exhaustively examines various possible identities for the phenomena. They settle on a most likely scenario, but clearly this is one of the many cases in science where future work is needed.

Planet Hunters

While Kepler focuses on a relatively small patch of sky—about 100 square degrees, while the whole sky is about 41,253—there are a lot of stars within that patch, and it followed more than 150,000 of them. That’s way too much data for the researchers to search individually. Instead, they use algorithms that look for repeating patterns, like periodic dips in a star’s flux (light output).

But that approach lacks a certain human touch—it won't spot anything that's unexpected, since that won't be incorporated into the algorithm. So to complement it, researchers relied on a citizen science project called Planet Hunters. Astronomy enthusiasts among the public were given the chance to pore over the data by eye. It was the Planet Hunters project that discovered KIC 8462852, marking it as an interesting object.

In just the first quarter of Kepler’s mission, volunteers had identified it as “bizarre,” “interesting,” and a “giant transit.” As new data on the star was released, discussions continued on the “talk” page of the Planet Hunters site, where it became increasingly apparent something was afoot.

Rises and Dips

Kepler checked the star using a series of 30-minute observations throughout the duration of its mission. For most of that time, the flux remained constant, but there were a number of significant departures from that.

After two small dips in 2009, which had attracted the notice of the Planet Hunters, there was another major dip of about 15 percent in 2011, and it lasted nearly a week. Finally, there was a whole series of dips in 2013, one of them managing to dim the star’s light by 22 percent.

To figure out if any of these changes are periodic, or at least have a periodic component, the researchers used a mathematical tool called a Fourier transform, which breaks signals down into the frequencies that make them up. It turns out there is indeed a regular period embedded in there, a rather short 0.88 days (or 1.14 cycles per day).

This number is pretty much what researchers would expect for a star like KIC 8462852, as it could represent the rotation of the star itself. They were able to calculate the star’s size as a result—they found that it was consistent with a normal F type star. Could the rotation of disturbances on the surface of the star itself explain the strange reduction?

Not entirely. The Fourier transform graph reveals that something more complex is going on, as there are a few other periodic signals that also contribute to the signal. In other words, it still looks a lot like a type F star, but its rotation leaves a number of signals unaccounted for.

Looking closer

The duo then turned to the ground-based Nordic Optical Telescope in the Roque de los Muchachos (Castle of the Kids) observatory of La Palma, Spain. They used it to obtain some spectroscopic data on the star during the period in question, to complement Kepler’s observations. Most of these results are fairly typical for an F-type star, though they do provide extra details about the star itself.

But the spectra also revealed the presence of some interstellar gas in our line of sight to the star.

The researchers also predicted the presence of a companion star not too far away, which they then detected using the Keck II telescope in Hawaii. They can’t confirm that the companion is physically bound to KIC 8462852, rather than simply a background or foreground star, but they estimate that there’s only a one percent chance that it’s not part of the physical system.

But given its distance, the companion can’t really affect the star directly. Still, it might perturb the orbits of any other objects in the system over the long-term.

Explanations

The researchers then wondered if KIC 8462852 was the only star in the Kepler data behaving in this strange way. To find out, they constructed an algorithm to search for similar extreme dips in the star’s brightness. They found over a thousand of them, but the rest turned out to be either binary systems undergoing eclipses, sunspot activity, or errors in the Kepler instrument itself. When they’d reviewed all the candidates, not a single other star had the same behavior.

That means it’s likely not a common phenomenon. So what is it? The main problem is that, while there is periodicity within the dimming pattern, the full, overall pattern is not periodic. Multiple events that aren’t periodic are hard to create a model for. But the researchers evaluated as many possibilities as they could think of. These are:
  • Instrument or data errors: The first possibility the researchers discuss is that the dimmings are caused by the instrument itself, just like a smudge on your camera lens can produce an image that looks like a UFO. To rule out these glitches, they applied data analysis algorithms, checked to make sure no cosmic ray events were recorded at the same times as the dips (as those can sometimes cause errors in electronic devices), looked at the light from neighboring sources recorded by Kepler to see if those displayed the same patterns (they didn’t), and more. At the end of this analysis, the researchers concluded that the pattern Kepler’s seeing is not a technical problem—it’s a real astrophysical event.
  • Variable stars: Some stars see their brightness vary naturally. But KIC 8462852 doesn’t match the characteristics of most known variables. There is, however, one type that could almost fit the bill and could even explain some of the weirdness in KIC 8462852’s graph. These are Be stars, and they’re spinning so fast they’re essentially breaking up, ejecting material every so often. This is often seen as a bright emission, but sometimes it can cause dimming. But Be stars produce excess infra-red light, which isn’t the case here; the star's temperature is also wrong, among other issues. Close, but no pez.
  • Dust getting in the way: Another possibility is clumps of dust loosely orbiting the star, periodically obscuring it. While there’s no way to rule this one out, the researchers “disfavor” it, because KIC 8462852 doesn’t seem to be a young star, and older stars don’t tend to maintain these sorts of dusty disks (they tend to condense into planets).
  • Debris getting in the way: It’s possible that the system has an equivalent (but far more dense) version of our asteroid field. If so, maybe some of that material is getting in the way. Alternatively, objects like broken up comets or debris from planetary collisions could cause dimmings. This one is actually something of a promising possibility, so the researchers discuss it in more detail.
>
Constraints

If something is getting in the way of the star, the first step would be to figure out how big it is and how close it is to the star. In that way, the researchers put constraints on it. For example, to block this much light, it could either be big and close to the star or smaller and far from the star. But if it’s small and far away, it couldn’t be moving fast enough to produce the right duration for the dips in brightness. All of these put constraints on the object(s).

Similarly, you can constrain the minimum possible size of the clumps by looking at the depths of the dips. It turns out that at least some of the clumps have to be a significant fraction of the size of the star. The authors found a number of similar constraints based on other characteristics of the observations.

Putting all this information together, they found that whatever the clumps are, they have to be at a distance roughly equivalent to Jupiter and the other gas giants’ distance from the Sun. And it would have to be large, larger even than the star itself.

It’s possible that a small planetary body known as a planetesimal could have a large collection of dust orbiting it. That way, the planetesimal itself might have escaped our detection because it’s so small, but its gravitationally bound dust might be enough to block all that light.

Cometary Conclusions

But that scenario, too, has issues, as do two others they raise: dust blasted into space after a planetesimal/asteroid collision, and debris resulting from a collision with a planet. After considering all these options, they found that the most likely scenario involves a family of broken comet debris.

Since many stellar systems have been found to have hot Jupiters—huge gas giants on extremely close orbits to their stars—it’s plausible that this system has one, too. Its gravity could have broken up a passing comet. It’s even possible that the comet could have come too close to the star and been broken up due to its tidal forces.

This idea, too, has its issues, and it’s not yet clear whether it can fully explain the data. For one thing, the absence of an excess of IR light is puzzling. It doesn’t rule out the comet explanation, but it might require another star to pass through the system, dragging objects from the system’s Oort cloud (a ring at the outer edge of most stellar systems that contains millions of icy objects). That’s kind of far-fetched, especially as the aforementioned companion star is too far to have managed this.

But for now, the researchers conclude that it’s the best explanation. “Of the various considered, we find that the break-up of [an] exocomet provides the most compelling explanation,” the authors write in their paper.

Future work is needed, first and foremost, to continue monitoring the star’s behavior and to learn more about the frequency of the dips. The team will engage in that continuing observation in collaboration with the MEarth project, a robotic survey.

Additionally, if it is indeed a family of comets, it should be releasing gas as well as dust, which can be tracked with future observations.

Whatever the case, KIC 8462852 will certainly be an interesting star to watch. “Our analysis characterizes the object as both remarkable (e.g., the “dipping” events in the Kepler light curve) and unremarkable (ground-based data reveal no deviation from a normal F-type star) at the same time,” the authors write.

But wait, aliens?!

It seems we left out an important possibility:
  • Aliens: A technologically advanced alien civilization might be building something around their star.
Other sources have been reporting that KIC 8462852’s behavior could be evidence of an alien Dyson sphere or an alien megastructure. The researchers didn’t actually discuss this possibility in their paper, where they concluded the comets are currently the best explanation. But as the cometary explanation is not fully satisfying, lead author Tabetha Boyajian of Yale consulted with Jason Wright, an astrophysicist with Penn State University, who had studied ways to detect potential extraterrestrial constructions.

Wright posited that the dips in flux from the star might be due to an alien Dyson sphere. Dyson spheres, of Star Trek fame, are massive, hypothetical constructs built around a star to collect its energy through millions of solar panels.

“Aliens should always be the very last hypothesis you consider,” Wright told The Atlantic. “But this looked like something you would expect an alien civilization to build.”

Well, it does fit the bill. If aliens had built a partial Dyson sphere, it could explain the strange behavior. But that doesn’t mean that’s the correct explanation. As Wright says, it should be the very last hypothesis we consider. And we still have other plausible explanations, such as the comets.

Nonetheless, Wright is writing up a proposal to use the NRAO’s Green Bank Telescope, the world’s largest fully steerable radio telescope, to look for radio transmissions from the system. If accepted, the observation would take place in January. If it turns up something worth further study, it would then be turned over to the Very Large Array in New Mexico, which should be able to confirm if the radio waves come from a technological source.

It’s an interesting idea. While it’s sexier by far than comets, “We should also approach it skeptically,” Wright told Slate. It’s all well and good to investigate the possibility, as Wright is doing, but (despite the impending return of “The X-Files”) it’s not quite time to go "full Mulder" just yet.

If actual evidence exists, we might find out in January. The truth is out there, after all.
http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/10/ ... -light/#p3
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Re: Scientists suspect alien structure around star.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Eternal_Freedom wrote:I think this thread title is absurdly misleading, since pretty much every scientist I've heard quoted about this says at worst it's some odd natural phenomenon we don't understand yet. We are workign with quite limited data after all.
Well, the article I posted features a number of scientists who are at least considering the alien possibility, so nothing I said in the title is factually inaccurate. And because their is limited space for a title, I could not reasonable be expected to include every disclaimer/qualifier such as "other scientists disagree".

It was certainly not my intention to imply that most or all scientists are considering this as a possible case of alien life.
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Re: Scientists suspect alien structure around star.

Post by Adam Reynolds »

Eternal_Freedom wrote:I think this thread title is absurdly misleading, since pretty much every scientist I've heard quoted about this says at worst it's some odd natural phenomenon we don't understand yet. We are workign with quite limited data after all.
This is, yet again, an example of news headlines being written for the lowest common denominator. Especially when it comes to scientific topics.
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Re: Scientists suspect alien structure around star.

Post by Channel72 »

So basically this guy Jason Wright from Penn State, who actually studies possibilities for detecting extraterrestrial civilizations, is likely one of the only people from the scientific community who is willing to suggest that this might be a Dyson sphere.

Which ... isn't really surprising. I mean, look at it this way: suppose there actually is a Dyson sphere out there. How would it look to us? Well... pretty much like this. But few scientists would be willing to really outright suggest that as a remotely likely possibility, because it's so far out of the realm of anything we've experienced. Only a "specialist" like Wright would likely even dare suggest something like that. Which means that if we ever do actually observe a Dyson sphere for the first time, few astrophysicists will likely be on board with that possibility until it is exhaustively confirmed.

That said, it's probably the comet thing.
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Re: Scientists suspect alien structure around star.

Post by Me2005 »

Adamskywalker007 wrote:
Eternal_Freedom wrote:I think this thread title is absurdly misleading, since pretty much every scientist I've heard quoted about this says at worst it's some odd natural phenomenon we don't understand yet. We are workign with quite limited data after all.
This is, yet again, an example of news headlines being written for the lowest common denominator. Especially when it comes to scientific topics.
Oh yeah, especially when you actually stop to think about how the Kepler mission works - they've got a really high definition video camera that is comparing changes in pixels over time to predict planets.
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Re: Scientists suspect alien structure around star.

Post by GrandMasterTerwynn »

Yeah, it's almost certainly something natural. There are enough stars in the galaxy that the odds of us just happening to look in the right place, at the right time, to witness the aftermath of some horrific planetary collision or infall of a massive comet or asteroid swarm aren't exactly zero. There are contraindications to this star being the base of an alien civilization. The first thing is that it's on the brighter end of the type-F stars; which means that any planets that formed in its sizable habitable zone would receive much more UV radiation than planets orbiting the dimmest type-F and type-G and below dwarf stars.

The second thing is that it's much too close. If we were to assume that what we're seeing is a Dyson swarm, then the civilization who built it has the power budget necessary to build lots of antimatter rockets. If it were a star 25,000 light years away, I'd be more apt to consider the "it's totally aliens" explanation ... barring magic, the time it would take someone to get here from a star 25,000 light years away would exceed the lifespan of Homo Sapiens. (For this exercise, we assume they're expanding at no more than a few percent of the speed of light, because we're taking things like interstellar radiation flux and the time to settle a new system and construct the megastructures necessary to launch the next wave of starships into account.) At 1500 light years away, the star in question is close enough that a civilization expanding outward from it could've arrived at any point in the existence of Homo Sapiens.

Yet, it's been dead quiet. Also, if it were megastructure building aliens, there ought to be more stars with similarly peculiar light curves within a few tens or hundreds of light-years of the star in question (either from colonizing efforts launched from that star, or from the prior wave of some other civilization who colonized that star system.) Since this is one of the stars the Kepler observatory was staring at, we should've seen them already.
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Re: Scientists suspect alien structure around star.

Post by RogueIce »

Can the more space inclined tell me why we can't point Hubble at it? Would that even matter if we did?

EDIT: To be clear, I'm not imply it's easy or trivial to point Hubble at anything. I'm just asking if it's a possibility that we could, if so desired, and whether or not it might reveal more information.
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Re: Scientists suspect alien structure around star.

Post by Simon_Jester »

Oh, it's quite doable. The Hubble gets re-aimed to point at new targets all the time; it wouldn't be worth anything if it wasn't. Heck, if we weren't constantly adjusting the aim it'd be useless because it'd be slowly swept around in circles as it orbits the Earth at all times.

Trouble is...

If we point the Hubble telescope at this star, we will see... a star. That's it, really. The Hubble's resolution is 0.05 arcseconds, so it can distinguish two bright points of light as little as 0.05 arcseconds apart. This is enough to see objects one mile apart at a distance of four million miles, roughly speaking.

But the star we're talking about is fifteen hundred light years away. At such a distance, the largest feature we could realistically expect to resolve with the Hubble, even if it were brightly lit, would be an object more than three light-hours across- in other words, about the size of the orbit of Saturn. Even a Dyson sphere probably wouldn't show up at that resolution.

Through some sort of fantastic subtle image processing we might get a few remote clues about whether we're looking at a million-kilometer target (the star) or a hundred-million-kilometer target (a Dyson sphere), but I doubt we'd get much, and I doubt we'd get anything unambiguous.

Plus, there are two other complications. One, observation time on the Hubble is a subject of fierce competition and is parceled out far in advance; looking at this star would mean time not spent looking at some other interesting celestial body. Two, a Dyson sphere would not be brightly lit, at least not from our side- it might well be hard if not impossible to see with visible light, and the Hubble operates mainly in the visible spectrum. It would be easier to spot in the infrared; the James Webb telescope would have a much better chance of being able to give us some kind of reading on a hypothetical alien Dyson sphere, because it could detect heat radiation from the sphere's outer surface.

Indeed, one of the main reasons in general that we have space observatory satellites like Kepler and the upcoming James Webb Space Telescope is that there are things out there the Hubble just plain isn't well equipped to observe.
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Re: Scientists suspect alien structure around star.

Post by Zeropoint »

I'm reminded of the quote by Asimov where he said something like, "The utterance which marks real scientific discovery is not 'eureka!' but 'huh, that's funny'."

What this boils down to is that we've seen something we can't explain, and that's exciting because it means we have the opportunity to learn something new and amazing about the universe we live in.
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Re: Scientists suspect alien structure around star.

Post by Purple »

I newer quite understood the excitement about discovering aliens. Like, say we get 100% confirmation that 1500 ly from us there is in fact an advanced alien civilization. Like, a probe reaches us or something. So what? That's still 1500 years away at the highest speed there is. None of us alive today are ever going to meet one of them, talk to them, shake their hand or anything. It simply does not change our lives in any meaningful way. The world we live in is changed more every time a new model of mobile phone hits the market. So what's the excitement about?
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