Build Foundation/Shangri-la for Earth.

[FaxModem1]

Due to the recent destruction of historical and archaeological treasures by ISIS, I decided to start this thread. A book and movie I rather treasure is Lost Horizon, by James Hilton in 1933, and adapted into a film by Frank Capra in 1937. The book is essentially about the secret city of Shangri-La, which seems to be a rather odd monastery in the Himalayas that people are taken to and find peace there. The true purpose of the place is not found until the latter half of the book, where the purpose of the monastery is revealed:

“We have reason. It is the entire meaning and purpose of Shangri-La. It came to me in a vision long, long ago. I foresaw a time when man exalting in the technique of murder, would rage so hotly over the world, that every book, every treasure would be doomed to destruction. This vision was so vivid and so moving that I determined to gather together all things of beauty and culture that I could and preserve them here against the doom toward which the world is rushing. Look at the world today. Is there anything more pitiful? What madness there is! What blindness! A scurrying mass of bewildered humanity crashing headlong against each other. The time must come, my friend, when brutality and the lust for power must perish by its own sword. For when that day comes, the world must begin to look for a new life. And it is our hope that they may find it here.”

The purpose, essentially, was to create a refuge of all the knowledge, literature, art, history and other beautiful things that mankind had created, so that if mankind destroys it all and themselves, that whenever the world is destroyed, Shangri-La could come out and lead the way and have everything preserved.

Isaac Asimov creates something similar with Hari Seldon and his desire to create Foundation, for the fear of the Galactic Empire's collapse and the galaxy entering a millennium long dark age, which the Foundation could shave down to only three centuries.

Considering the destruction of the Library of Alexandria, the burning of books by Nazi Germany, the recent destruction of museum pieces by ISIS, would you consider a Foundation/Shangri-La necessary? If not, why?

If so, how do you go about it? How would you desire a shelter for all the world's works be created? What do you think should be preserved? What shouldn't, if anything? Where do you build it? What do you make?

[madd0ct0r]

there exists a repository for the seeds of the worlds plant species in artic ice north of norway. For music, writing and art, the challenge of a dense storage medium that is stable long term still exists. Laser punched holes in stainless steel sheet perhaps.

[InsaneTD]

Personally, I'd have more then one, each would be in areas unlikely to be attacked by strategic weapons, possibly even investing in an space station in high orbit. Those the cost is extremely prohibiting in most cases. I'd also store digital copies of everything, rather then the actually items. They should be in a place where they can be admired and petite can learn about/see them.

[Borgholio]

The internet could be considered a sort of Shangri-la in that it contains copies of practically every single work of art, literature, and history of mankind. However, as far as keeping the originals safe, I personally would love to have an international agency with the authority and resources to make sure that cultural treasures from around the world were properly cared for and protected from harm. In the event of ISIS, civil war, or some other catastrophe, I think it would be sufficient to have a repository available in a neutral country such as Switzerland where any items that are in danger could be evacuated.

[FaxModem1]

How redundant is the internet? If the power went out somehow, how long would the servers keep all the data? What would be the best way for something to be preserved for years, decades, or centuries?

[Bedlam]

How redundant is the internet? If the power went out somehow, how long would the servers keep all the data? What would be the best way for something to be preserved for years, decades, or centuries?

Papers not actually that bad over that sort of time frame, no power requirement, even if it gets wet it's actually not that hard to dry it out to be readable again, mold can be a problem but again not that bad. There are plenty of books in the 200 ish years old which are readable despite being stored badly.

Personally, I'd have more then one, each would be in areas unlikely to be attacked by strategic weapons, possibly even investing in an space station in high orbit. Those the cost is extremely prohibiting in most cases. I'd also store digital copies of everything, rather then the actually items. They should be in a place where they can be admired and petite can learn about/see them.

The problem with orbit is how long will it take anyone to get there after the apocalypse? And if they can get there how much of the information will actually be new given they would need presumably 60s level of tech to get to it. Digital likewise needs a certain level of technology to read and decrypting it into something readable is also difficult, a tablet or book with a few passages in a whole bunch of languages would make translation of a written text much easier.

[InsaneTD]

All excellent points and nothing I have answers for. Though for orbit, I was thinking a system that would return to earth after losing contact for X Amount of time.

[Mr Bean]

Salt Mines, always the Salt mines if you want to build a vault underground that's reliable and protected. Either under the vault tech style design of tons of metal and tons of concrete. Think about three different locations. South America mountain ranges, the American Rocky Mountains and probably in.. Australia someplace. Mount Remarkable National Park, or New Zealand. Someplace nice and out of the way.

[Bedlam]

All excellent points and nothing I have answers for. Though for orbit, I was thinking a system that would return to earth after losing contact for X Amount of time.

I suppose you then come to a problem of where it returns to (assuming automated) depending on the apocalypse you might end up under water or in a place that will be irradiated for a thousand years. Even if you end up near people will they actually want or recognise the information, they might be entirely uninterested in banks of computers but tear the pod apart for the metal to make spear tips which would allow their tribe to hunt better.

Duplication would of course help find a suitable location but adds to cost.

[Eulogy]

I suppose a time machine would more or less be the best Foundation one could ever hope for, but that, obviously, comes with its own bugbears.

The best one could hope for regarding ISIS is to smuggle as much artifacts out of Iraq as is possible (because let's face it, the country sure as fuck can't stop anyone from doing so), maybe leave behind some booby-trapped fakes to take out some of the shitheads, and let both ISIS and the Taliban exterminate each other while ISIS' laundry list of enemies hasten their demise.

Ideally, ISIS would've already been dealt with, but ideally, they would never have managed to eatablish themselves at all.

[Borgholio]

I suppose a time machine would more or less be the best Foundation one could ever hope for, but that, obviously, comes with its own bugbears.

The best one could hope for regarding ISIS is to smuggle as much artifacts out of Iraq as is possible (because let's face it, the country sure as fuck can't stop anyone from doing so), maybe leave behind some booby-trapped fakes to take out some of the shitheads, and let both ISIS and the Taliban exterminate each other while ISIS' laundry list of enemies hasten their demise.

Ideally, ISIS would've already been dealt with, but ideally, they would never have managed to eatablish themselves at all.

Why not go one step further? Go back before Bush launched his invasion and release "secret" audio tapes where he is recorded admitting that he knows there's no WMD and he's only doing it to take the oil. No invasion, no ISIS.

[FaxModem1]

Yeah, let's assume that for intents and purposes, you only have access to real technology, or something that would probably be developed in the few months, not something from science fiction.

[Borgholio]

Ok let's think about modern data storage. Let's say we wanted to make a backup copy of as much as we can and keep it safe. Part of having backups is redundancy. You can never have too many backups. So let's say we build several dozen (or hundred) satellites and use them as data storage repositories. Each one is stuffed to the brim with solid state drives, holding as much human knowledge as possible. The satellites will be lead-shielded and armored to protect against radiation and micro-meteor impacts. They will be stationed in the many Lagrange points in the solar system to conserve station-keeping thruster fuel. They will remain in radio contact with each other as a form of data redundancy. If one satellite notices corrupted data, it can be restored from the good copies on the other satellites. They would also maintain contact with Earth so if civilization collapsed, we would hopefully hear the signals once we re-developed radio and be able to either physically visit the nearest satellite and download it's data, or download via radio (though it would be slow as hell).

[FaxModem1]

Wouldn't that require that mankind, once the fall comes, by whatever methods, must have radio devices to even start to get the benefits of Shangri-la? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose, as the civilization would already have achieved an industrial level of technology before they are even able to get the benefits?

Or would that be on purpose, that they can only have this information, art, history, etc. once they're already back on the path?

Also, what about storage for art, statues, etc? Unless you plan on putting them in the satellites.

[Zeropoint]

I'd use the satellites as one layer of a multi-layered plan. In addition to them, also have lots of sites on earth with the same data stores AND more easily accessible information on how to develop a level of civilization and technology capable of interfacing with the digital storage.

The satellite network in radio contact isn't there as the primary means of restoring civilization, it's there as kind of a last resort, storing precious culture and tech where it's unlikely to get destroyed by accident or out of spite, or looted by people who think that memory chips make keen jewelry.

[Borgholio]

Wouldn't that require that mankind, once the fall comes, by whatever methods, must have radio devices to even start to get the benefits of Shangri-la? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose, as the civilization would already have achieved an industrial level of technology before they are even able to get the benefits?

Is the point of Shangri-la to help re-educate mankind and bring them back from the dark ages, or is it to preserve knowledge and history for the time when we are ready to appreciate it again?

Or would that be on purpose, that they can only have this information, art, history, etc. once they're already back on the path?

Pretty much. The last thing we want is civilization regressing to the level of Attila the Hun, finding one of these storage facilities on the surface, looting it, and melting it down to make spearpoints. Once radio has been re-discovered, it can be *reasonably* assured that civilization has stabilized and is back to seeking knowledge, rather than still acting like barbarians.

Also, what about storage for art, statues, etc? Unless you plan on putting them in the satellites.

Well with data of course, you can pack a lot of information into a solid state drive...which is why I proposed only storing data and copies in space. But yes, physical artifacts and items should not be ignored. I can't see any practical method to store even a portion of the vast number of historical items we have in space...so it would have to be buried and hidden in a place so deep and secure that you would need advanced technology such as heavy machines and plasma cutters to gain access. Say...Norad. No way anybody with anything less than late industrial-age tech could get in there. And we know that archeology was alive and well during that period, so we can be reasonably sure that they can take proper care of what they find. Especially if we also leave behind instruction manuals on how to use modern preservation techniques that they may not have re-discovered yet.

I'd use the satellites as one layer of a multi-layered plan. In addition to them, also have lots of sites on earth with the same data stores AND more easily accessible information on how to develop a level of civilization and technology capable of interfacing with the digital storage.

Yeah that does sound like a good idea. As I said, redundancy. The more stores and the more copies the better. We should reserve the most secret and secure locations for the original pieces of art and history, but making duplicates that are more easily found would be better than nothing. A copy of The Iliad is just as educational as the original, of course.

[Baffalo]

IIRC The Library of Congress contains a vast collection of cherished and culturally significant artifacts from throughout history, and maintains copies and even replicas in various storage locations throughout the country. I know I went to college where their library was one of these vaults, keeping both government documents and important artifacts. Some libraries in New York City probably contain a vast collection of important artifacts, such as an original Gutenberg bible. Sure, New York City is probably going to be a nice juicy target for atomic annihilation, but that leads to the ultimate paradox:

Do you take such pains to preserve cultural artifacts and history that they are no longer available to the very people whose culture you're trying to preserve?

[Darth Tanner]

How long can you expect a satellite full of solid state media to survive though? Satellites will constantly degrade in orbit so there is a hard limit there from fuel reserve and solid state media only can be expected to last 20 years from some sources I've read - that's pretty useless for the rebuild of civilization time scope. Also for civilization to fall there most likely would be an exchange of nuclear weapons - I'd imagine orbital satellites would be vulnerable to all the EM radiation being thrown about everywhere even if they are not direct targets.

[Borgholio]

How long can you expect a satellite full of solid state media to survive though?

Depends on how redundant you build it. We're not talking an ultra-sensitive space telescope here, this is supposed to be an armored bank vault in space.

Satellites will constantly degrade in orbit so there is a hard limit there from fuel reserve

There won't be any in orbit. They will be placed in Lagrange points around the solar system, where they can remain stable almost indefinitely due to gravity alone. That will also protect them from being damaged by a potential nuclear exchange. The closest ones are in the Moon's orbit, so they could be reachable with 1960's era space tech.

solid state media only can be expected to last 20 years from some sources I've read - that's pretty useless for the rebuild of civilization time scope

Longer than a conventional platter hard drive. While you could probably store the data on M-discs or DVDs or something like that which would last for a thousand years if you just use these things as storage chambers, my idea involves being able to link up via radio and download data if physically recovering the satellite is not possible. So whatever method is used must be able to be accessed and transmittable to Earth.

[jwl]

Etch the info onto titanium and dump it into the sea?

[Borgholio]

And how will that be recoverable later?

[Darth Tanner]

There won't be any in orbit. They will be placed in Lagrange points around the solar system

Ok that makes sense but after a few hundred years will they not simply be dead lumps of metal? If its half way to the moon we are not going to have a hope of finding it again are we as any active transmitters it going to have will be long broke?

[Borgholio]

There won't be any in orbit. They will be placed in Lagrange points around the solar system

Ok that makes sense but after a few hundred years will they not simply be dead lumps of metal? If its half way to the moon we are not going to have a hope of finding it again are we as any active transmitters it going to have will be long broke?

Maybe they will, maybe they won't. It's hard to say. If the transmitters break and the power runs out and everything shuts down, then the data is still going to be there if it's ever found again. And having them be in the Lagrange points is a piece of information that could be left in one of the Earthside repositories.

[Baffalo]

Maybe they will, maybe they won't. It's hard to say. If the transmitters break and the power runs out and everything shuts down, then the data is still going to be there if it's ever found again. And having them be in the Lagrange points is a piece of information that could be left in one of the Earthside repositories.

The problem I have with this is that a Lagrange point sounds nice, but if anything sweeps through with a high enough gravitational attraction (say, an asteroid), then it could potentially disrupt it. If anything, I'd say the most stable location is that of Antartica, given that while it may just be an archipelago down there, it's essentially stuck due to plate movement. I think a geologist I talked to said that Antarctica is trapped there until another continent sweeps down and gathers it up.

There are numerous advantages to this:
1) It's on Earth, meaning it's much easier to access than, say, a ruined civilization trying to recover.
2) The worst you can expect is to have it covered or uncovered. If uncovered, it's still bloody cold, while if covered, it can still be obtained.
3) We maintain science stations in Antarctica, meaning that even if most records of its existence are lost, some record somewhere might still exist, or it could simply be stumbled upon by accident.

[Borgholio]

The problem I have with this is that a Lagrange point sounds nice, but if anything sweeps through with a high enough gravitational attraction (say, an asteroid), then it could potentially disrupt it.

Well yeah, nothing's perfect. It's more stable than planetary orbit to be sure, but no amount of foresight will protect against a large gamma ray burst or the passage of a black hole or something equally nasty. As far as protecting against the fall of civilization, putting data caches in stable orbits or on other worlds is pretty much as human-proof as you can get.

If anything, I'd say the most stable location is that of Antartica, given that while it may just be an archipelago down there, it's essentially stuck due to plate movement. I think a geologist I talked to said that Antarctica is trapped there until another continent sweeps down and gathers it up.

I'm not so sure. Antarctica is no different than any other continent really. It has geological features, it has lakes, inland seas, fault lines, earthquakes, volcanoes, etc... So it's no more stable than any other continent.

Best places would be as far from fault lines and magma hotspots as possible. While no place on a continent is free from geologic events, you can find places where they are fairly rare. Put repositories on every continent (even Antarcitica, despite it not being anything special) and that would be a great first step. Then the satellites would be a good backup just in case things got really horrible down here.