microwave thrusters (EM drive)

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microwave thrusters (EM drive)

Post by dragon »

So its been duplicated so there's good evidence that it works somehow despite the fact that it appears to violate the law of conservation.
But if this works and is scalable depending on power source it has a lot of potential uses. The article mentions that the Chinese were able to get enough for a satellite, this would mean that you could eliminate the need for fuel giving the satellite greater maneuverability.

since there was 3 team testing 2 différent design, with only in common the notion of microwave and assymetry, and with a difference in performance linked to Q factor, there is good chance that it is not an artifact.
Nasa is a major player in space science, so when a team from the agency this week presents evidence that "impossible" microwave thrusters seem to work, something strange is definitely going on. Either the results are completely wrong, or Nasa has confirmed a major breakthrough in space propulsion.

British scientist Roger Shawyer has been trying to interest people in his EmDrive for some years through his company SPR Ltd. Shawyer claims the EmDrive converts electric power into thrust, without the need for any propellant by bouncing microwaves around in a closed container. He has built a number of demonstration systems, but critics reject his relativity-based theory and insist that, according to the law of conservation of momentum, it cannot work.

According to good scientific practice, an independent third party needed to replicate Shawyer's results. As Wired.co.uk reported, this happened last year when a Chinese team built its own EmDrive and confirmed that it produced 720 mN (about 72 grams) of thrust, enough for a practical satellite thruster. Such a thruster could be powered by solar electricity, eliminating the need for the supply of propellant that occupies up to half the launch mass of many satellites. The Chinese work attracted little attention; it seems that nobody in the West believed in it.

However, a US scientist, Guido Fetta, has built his own propellant-less microwave thruster, and managed to persuade Nasa to test it out. The test results were presented on July 30 at the 50th Joint Propulsion Conference in Cleveland, Ohio. Astonishingly enough, they are positive.

The Nasa team based at the Johnson Space Centre gave its paper the title "Anomalous Thrust Production from an RF [radio frequency] Test Device Measured on a Low-Thrust Torsion Pendulum". The five researchers spent six days setting up test equipment followed by two days of experiments with various configurations. These tests included using a "null drive" similar to the live version but modified so it would not work, and using a device which would produce the same load on the apparatus to establish whether the effect might be produced by some effect unrelated to the actual drive. They also turned the drive around the other way to check whether that had any effect.
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EmDrive: China's radical new space drive
EmDrive: China's radical new space drive

Back in the 90s, Nasa tested what was claimed to be an antigravity device based on spinning superconducting discs. That was reported to give good test results, until researchers realised that interference from the device was affecting their measuring instruments. They have probably learned a lot since then.

The torsion balance they used to test the thrust was sensitive enough to detect a thrust of less than ten micronewtons, but the drive actually produced 30 to 50 micronewtons -- less than a thousandth of the Chinese results, but emphatically a positive result, in spite of the law of conservation of momentum:

"Test results indicate that the RF resonant cavity thruster design, which is unique as an electric propulsion device, is producing a force that is not attributable to any classical electromagnetic phenomenon and therefore is potentially demonstrating an interaction with the quantum vacuum virtual plasma."

This last line implies that the drive may work by pushing against the ghostly cloud of particles and anti-particles that are constantly popping into being and disappearing again in empty space. But the Nasa team has avoided trying to explain its results in favour of simply reporting what it found: "This paper will not address the physics of the quantum vacuum plasma thruster, but instead will describe the test integration, test operations, and the results obtained from the test campaign."

The drive's inventor, Guido Fetta calls it the "Cannae Drive", which he explains as a reference to the Battle of Cannae in which Hannibal decisively defeated a much stronger Roman army: you're at your best when you are in a tight corner. However, it's hard not to suspect that Star Trek's Engineer Scott -- "I cannae change the laws of physics" -- might also be an influence. (It was formerly known as the Q-Drive.)

Fetta also presented a paper at AIAA on his drive, "Numerical and Experimental Results for a Novel Propulsion Technology Requiring no On-Board Propellant". His underlying theory is very different to that of the EmDrive, but like Shawyer he has spent years trying to persuade sceptics simply to look at it. He seems to have succeeded at last.

Shawyer himself, who sent test examples of the EmDrive to the US in 2009, sees the similarity between the two.

"From what I understand of the Nasa and Cannae work -- their RF thruster actually operates along similar lines to EmDrive, except that the asymmetric force derives from a reduced reflection coefficient at one end plate," he says. He believes the design accounts for the Cannae Drive's comparatively low thrust: "Of course this degrades the Q and hence the specific thrust that can be obtained."

Fetta is working on a number of projects which he is not able to discuss at present, and Nasa's PR team was not able to get any comments from the research team. However, it's fair to assume that the results will be picked over very closely indeed, like CERN's anomalous faster-than-light neutrinos. The neutrino issue was cleared up fairly quickly, but given that this appears to be at least the third independent propellant-less thruster to work in tests, the anomalous thrust may prove much harder to explain away.

A working microwave thruster would radically cut the cost of satellites and space stations and extend their working life, drive deep-space missions, and take astronauts to Mars in weeks rather than months. In hindsight, it may turn out to be another great British invention that someone else turned into a success.
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Re: microwave thrusters (EM drive)

Post by Kuroneko »

When, if ever, are they going to test the EmDrive in a vacuum? The Chinese didn't do it, now a NASA lab doesn't do it.

By the way, calling the EmDrive "relativity-based" is completely ludicrous. The author bases his idea on the notion that special relativity requires that "separate frames of reference have to be applied at velocities approaching the speed of light," but in fact special relativity is based on the complete opposite of this: any inertial frame is just as good as another, for any physical phenomenon.
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Re: microwave thrusters (EM drive)

Post by mr friendly guy »

When they manage to launch a satellite and have it navigate with that thrust then I will go "science, fuck yeah." Until then its a case of "watch this space."
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Re: microwave thrusters (EM drive)

Post by Simon_Jester »

Electromagnetic waves in general and EM resonance cavities are quite well understood. I would not expect them to be the key to creating a reactionless drive... which is what this purports to be. Because if there were a totally unknown and alien effect created by microwaves that is totally outside of Maxwell's Laws, then microwaves shouldn't appear to follow Maxwell's Laws so precisely.
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Re: microwave thrusters (EM drive)

Post by Pelranius »

Wouldn't sudden spikes in space radiation be a problem by interfering with the movement of microwaves inside said container?
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Re: microwave thrusters (EM drive)

Post by Simon_Jester »

Not if they're locked inside a metal box it wouldn't. Which is the reason people are saying this drive is probably a hoax.

What it comes down to is that bouncing around microwaves in a 'resonance cavity' is broadly similar to bouncing light around in a box lined with mirrors on the inside. Obviously, if you bounce light around inside a mirrored box, it's not going to go anywhere: there's no propulsion created as a result. Likewise if you bounce microwaves around- same thing. To get propulsion you have to actually be emitting or ejecting something.

This is what normal actual physicists are talking about when they say the drive concept "violates the law of conservation of momentum." The point is that just having a bunch of stuff (be it BB pellets, gas molecules, or photons) rattling around the inside of a sealed box has no effect on its surroundings and cannot propel anything anywhere.
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Re: microwave thrusters (EM drive)

Post by Steel »

I had a look at this article a couple of days ago. Didn't really buy anything then.

Has anyone got the full text of the studies? I'd be interested to see how the thrust of this compares to the momentum of photons U/c you could get by just firing a laser of the same power. That and checking they weren't very slowly ablating the casing on one side causing a little bit of thrust.
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Re: microwave thrusters (EM drive)

Post by Sky Captain »

It shouldn't be too hard to fit a cubesat with this thing and launch as a secondary payload on ISS resuply mission or some other commercial rocket launch. If satellite can get delta v from em drive then it just works even if we don't know why.
If Chinese claims are true then it would be very hard to explain how they could have made measurement error that big. 72 grams is quite a lot of thrust. I could easily make a scale to measure that much force at home. In lab environment you would have to be highly incompetent to make error that big.
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Re: microwave thrusters (EM drive)

Post by Jaepheth »

I remember reading about these things a few years ago.

My response at the time was "Prove it."

Now my response is a much more interested, "Prove it harder."

Nasa paper: http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=20140006052
Doesn't seem to have more than the abstract though. Looks like a full version is available here but they require a login/subscription which I don't have.
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Re: microwave thrusters (EM drive)

Post by Simon_Jester »

They really, REALLY need to test this in vacuum, preferably microgravity strapped to a CubeSat or other lightweight test stand. That's the real acid test.

Once in a while, a fraud manages to convince multiple technically literate organizations that something real is going on with their particular brand of snake oil. But there's no way to fake the equivalent of the Rattler-Alecto trials.
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Re: microwave thrusters (EM drive)

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ExtremeTech wrote:A study conducted last year by NASA scientists has become the latest, and by far the highest profile, piece of evidence in favor of a seemingly impossible space thruster design that’s been evoking worldwide skepticism for some time now. Apparently annoyed by the persistent boosters of several similar but distinct designs, the space agency finally agreed to test an American-made variant called the Cannae Drive. “Alright!” they said. “We’ll test your stupid drive that won’t work.” Except it did work. Seemingly in contravention of the law of conservation of momentum, the team confirmed that the device produces thrust by using electricity, and nothing else. Supporters call them microwave thrusters or quantum vacuum plasma thrusters (QVPT), while most others use the phrase “anomalous thrust device.”

First, the results of NASA’s experiment, since that’s all the team itself wants you to be talking about. Seemingly wanting to avoid unproductive controversy about the nature of existence, they’ve totally ignored the question of how the drive works in favour of simply reporting the data. With controls in place to avoid any confounding forces or variables, the NASA team recorded a reliable thrust between 30 and 50 micro-Newtons, less than a thousandth of the output of some relatively low-powered ion thrusters in use today. Still, the ion thrusters require fuel to operate, and the original QVPT inventor claims the version NASA tested is flawed, leading them to collect far lower thrust readings than his original can provide.

If confirmed, the practical upshot of this technology would be amazing. Solar panels could provide the electricity needed to keep the thruster working, meaning that propulsion would be low-thrust and long-term with virtually no associated cost. That would not only drastically reduce the cost of keeping satellites running and in orbit, but it could make interstellar travel much easier; Harold White, of warp drive fame, predicted that a beefed up version of the QVPT could reach Proxima Centauri in about 30 years (assuming the concept actually works at all).

While NASA might not want to talk about it, though, for us it’s worth discussing just how this drive’s creators hypothesize the thruster works. By now, most people are aware that the laws of classical physics tend to break down at the quantum scale, and exploiting that fact can give you interesting little physical impossibilities like infinitely accelerating negative-mass photons. However, the effects of these quantum-scale impossibilities have always stayed at the quantum scale; sure one atom could theoretically phase-shift through another, but we still can’t run through walls.

The central insight here (assuming this isn’t all a big mistake) is that something called quantum vacuum fluctuations will occasionally spontaneously create particles all throughout the vacuum of space, and that these short-lived particles can be put to useful work. Thus, this thruster actually does use fuel — it just finds and uses that fuel as it goes. The thruster essentially turns these virtual particles into a plasma and expels them out the back of the ship, much like a conventional fuel source. The quantum fuel, though, spontaneously appears inside the thruster’s reaction area without even the need for collection or injection hardware. All things considered, that’s more than a little exciting.

The original design, called the emDrive by creator Roger Shawyer, should get significantly more attention in the coming months, which ought to feel good given the long struggles he’s had with professional apathy and skepticism. As mentioned, the version tested by NASA is distinct from the emDrive, but still (they think) makes use of the quantum vacuum particles as the propellant. There are very preliminary plans to test a version of the drive in space, but such orbital work is expensive; now it might finally have the juice to warrant such a plan.
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Re: microwave thrusters (EM drive)

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wired.co.uk wrote:Wired.co.uk's piece last week about Nasa's test of a new type of space drive triggered a tsunami of responses online. Many were understandably sceptical, others were unsure how it would advance space travel. In fact, the paper produced on the day gave much more detail than the advance abstract we linked to then. The actual paper reveals details of tests in early 2014 as well as those in summer 2013 -- and the results are even more astounding.

Here we answer many of your questions, quibbles and criticisms.

1. Isn't such a tiny force likely to be experimental error?

The equipment can measure forces of less than ten micronewtons, and the thrust was several times that high.

The test rig is carefully designed to remove any possible sources of error. Even the lapping of waves in the Gulf of Mexico 25 miles away every three to four seconds would have showed up on the sensors, so the apparatus was floated pneumatically to avoid any influence. The apparatus is completely sealed, with power and signals going through liquid metal contacts to prevent any force being transmitted through cables.

Similar consideration was given to any other possible factors that could influence the result, for example shielding everything from electromagnetic effects. There may be a gap somewhere, but the Nasa experimenters appear to have been scrupulous.

2. Thrust was also measured from the 'Null Drive', doesn't that mean the experiment failed?

Lots of commenters jumped on this, assuming incorrectly that this was a control test and that thrust was measured when there was no drive.

In fact, the 'Null Drive' was a modified version of the Cannae Drive, a flying-saucer-shaped device with slots engraved in one face only. The underlying theory is that the slots create a force imbalance in resonating microwaves; the 'Null Drive' was unslotted, but still produced thrust when filled with microwaves. This may challenge the theory -- it is probably no coincidence that Cannae inventor Guido Fetta is patenting a new version which works differently -- but not the results.

The true 'null test' was when a load was used with no resonant cavity, and as expected this produced no thrust:

"Finally, a 50 ohm RF resistive load was used in place of the test article to verify no significant systemic effects that would cause apparent or real torsion pendulum displacements. The RF load was energised twice at an amplifier output power of approximately 28 watts and no significant pendulum arm displacements were observed."

Equally significantly, reversing the orientation of the drive reversed the thrust.

3. They didn't do it in a vacuum, so how do we know the result is valid in space?

While the original abstract says that tests were run "within a stainless steel vacuum chamber with the door closed but at ambient atmospheric pressure", the full report describes tests in which turbo vacuum pumps were used to evacuate the test chamber to a pressure of five millionths of a Torr, or about a hundred-millionth of normal atmospheric pressure.

4. Why didn't they test Shawyer's EmDrive design as well as the Cannae drive?

It turns out that in January this year they did test the EmDrive design.

The test results for this were also positive, and in fact their tapered-cavity drive, derived from the Chinese drive which is in turn based on Shawyer's EmDrive, produced 91 micronewtons of thrust for 17 watts of power, compared to the 40 micronewtons of thrust from 28 watts for the Cannae drive.

5. Even if it works, how can such a small thrust push a spacecraft?

The thrust was low because this is a very low-powered apparatus. The Chinese have demonstrated a system using kilowatts rather than watts of power that produces a push of 720 millinewtons. This is enough to lift a couple of ounces, making it competitive with modern space drives. The difference is that this drive doesn't require any propellant, which usually takes up a lot of launch weight and places a limit on how long other drives can operate for.

The Nasa paper says "the expected thrust to power for initial flight applications is expected to be in the 0.4 newton per kilowatt electric (N/kWe) range, which is about seven times higher than the current state of the art Hall thruster in use on orbit today."

6. How does this get us to Mars?

The small but steady push of the EmDrive is a winner for space missions, gradually accelerating spacecraft to high speed.

The Nasa paper projects a 'conservative' manned mission to Mars from Earth orbit, with a 90-ton spacecraft driven by the new technology. Using a 2-megawatt nuclear power source, it can develop 800 newtons (180 pounds) of thrust. The entire mission would take eight months, including a 70-day stay on Mars.

This compares with Nasa's plans using conventional technology which takes six months just to get there, and requires several hundred tons to be put into Earth's orbit to start with. You also have to stay there for at least 18 months while you wait for the planets to align again for the journey back. The new drive provides enough thrust to overcome the gravitational attraction of the Sun at these distances, which makes manoeuvring much easier.

A less conservative projection has an advanced drive developing ten times as much thrust for the same power -- this cuts the transit time to Mars to 28 days, and can generally fly around the solar system at will, a true Nasa dream machine.

7. What's this about hoverboards and flying cars?

A superconducting version of the EmDrive, would, in principle, generate thousands of times more thrust. And because it does not require energy just to hold things up (just as a chair does not require power to keep you off the ground), in theory you could have a hoverboard which does not require energy to float in the air.

You'll have to provide the lateral thrust yourself though, or expend energy pushing the thing along by other means --- and in any case, superconducting electronics are rather bulky and expensive, so the super-EmDrive is likely to be a few years away.

8. Surely a single result by one lab is likely to be an error?

The Nasa work builds on previous results by Roger Shawyer in Britain and Prof Yang Juan at Northwestern Polytechnical University in Xi'an as well as Guido Fetta's work at Cannae. This is more of a confirmation.

9. Why isn't there a simple explanation of how it's supposed to work without violating the laws of physics?

Different research groups all seem to have their own theories -- Shawyer's is based on relativity, the Chinese one is based on Maxwell's Law and Nasa is now talking about pushing against "quantum vacuum virtual particles" and saying that this is "similar to the way a naval submarine interacts with the water which surrounds it." The Nasa report deliberately avoids any theoretical discussion on this point, with good reason.

None of these explanations has gone unchallenged by theoreticians, and it might be fair to say that there is no accepted explanation as to how a close system of resonating microwaves can produce a thrust. There is no accepted theoretical explanation of how high-temperature superconductors work either, but because the effect has been replicated so many times, nobody doubts that it happens.

If the new drive results continue to be replicated, then theory may have to catch up.

10. What happens next?

The next stage will be more tests and more validation. An improved version of the tapered drive based on the EmDrive has been designed, and this will be built and sent out to other facilities so they can confirm the initials results.

The current plan is for IV&V (Independent Verification and Validation) tests at the Glenn Research Center using their low thrust torsion pendulum, similar to the one used, followed by another one at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) using their low thrust torsion pendulum. The Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory may also test the device using a different type of apparatus known as a Cavendish Balance.

After that, the sky's the limit. Or perhaps it isn't.
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Re: microwave thrusters (EM drive)

Post by Simon_Jester »

The main reason why people are skeptical is that this is happening in an area where we had reason to think we understood everything. Resonant microwave cavities are not a new technology, they've been used in radars, particle accelerators, and communications since the 1940s. Some of them at extremely high power, well up into the kilowatts and megawatts. And they've been studied by scientists throughout this time.

For someone to stumble suddenly on the fact that just by bouncing microwaves around inside a box, you can create a net force pointing in some direction... it's a very surprising thing. Something no one would have thought likely even a short time ago. We thought we knew how microwaves worked, and how they interact with quantum mechanical phenomena, and many other things about them.

So a priori, the odds of there being a truly significant unknown thing associated with this relatively well understood and well explored phenomenon seem rather low, compared to the odds of there being some way for the apparatus to somehow gimmick and create misreadings in sensitive equipment.

In reply to the point (9) in the article Tev quoted, I'd like to point out that this is not similar to the situation with high temperature superconductors. The properties of exotic ceramics that exhibit high temperature superconductivity were not examined carefully until the '80s. And then they were found to be superconductors almost immediately. So sure, the exact mechanism that allows it* is not fully understood. But there's no question of "why wasn't this discovered sooner" or "if this works as a general principle, shouldn't it interfere with the workings of other microwave-based devices?"

It's sort of like having someone tell you they found a pile of gold bricks in the trunk of their car the other day. It's such a wonderful find... but it beggars the imagination that they could have gone for years somehow not knowing the gold bricks were there.
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*(which involves details of how electrons 'swim' through a very complicated medium, so to speak)
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Re: microwave thrusters (EM drive)

Post by Kuroneko »

#3 is simply wrong. The 'full report' does not describe "tests in which turbo pumps were used to evacuate the test chamber to a pressure of five millionth of a Torr". Rather, it describes the calibration procedure, which was done in a vacuum. The tests were not done in a vacuum, and the report explicitly concludes:
VI. Summary and Forward Work wrote:Vacuum compatible RF amplifiers with power ranges of up to 125 watts will allow testing at vacuum conditions which was not possible using our current RF amplifiers due to the presence of electrolytic capacitors.
The original abstract is actually quite correct, and the shortened abstract excised that portion.

As an additional reply to #9, I'll repeat what I said above:
Kuroneko wrote:By the way, calling the EmDrive "relativity-based" is completely ludicrous. The author bases his idea on the notion that special relativity requires that "separate frames of reference have to be applied at velocities approaching the speed of light," but in fact special relativity is based on the complete opposite of this: any inertial frame is just as good as another, for any physical phenomenon.
With a few additions:
-- "Maxwell's Law" does not refer to anything. Maxwell's equations, however, are relativistic and incompatible with any violation of four-momentum conservation.
-- "Quantum vacuum virtual plasma" is a meaningless term that does not exist outside a single paper by the same lab. It has no well-defined physics, not even hypothetical physics.
-- Virtual particles exchange of energy and momentum, which is conserved at every interaction, between real particles. So this doesn't explain anything at all: at best, as virtual particles will allow one to shove momentum to somewhere else, but not hold it in lieu of real particles.
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