Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:You could claim it, but I don't believe the evidence is there. I admit to not knowing of specific studies on this point, but the cultures that are the most open to talking and even joking about all things sexual tend to have the lowest rates of sexual violence.
Assume for the sake of argument that this trend exists. Is talking and joking about the idea of sex-as-dominance and sex-as-punishment actually contributing to that trend?
There are many ways to joke about the same thing. Is it that unlikely that some of them are 'productive' and lead to healthy social attitudes about the thing, while others are 'unproductive' and make people's attitudes worse?
Especially since one of the side-effects of males being "open about their sexuality" by making lots of sex-as-dominance/punishment jokes is that women can be intimidated into NOT being "open about their sexuality." An environment where all the men are wolf-whistling and catcalling and making jokes about how much they want to chase down women in the streets and ravish them MIGHT be very open about male sexuality... but that doesn't mean it's encouraging or even allowing women to be similarly open.
Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:False. Have you seen many stand-up specials lately? Within the last few years, white comedians have started to use the N-word more and more. I believe Louis C.K. was the first high-profile comedian to do it in his 2007 special "Chewed Up", but others have followed, and they have gotten laughs from mixed audiences. I know most of us still recoil when we hear that word, but really we should all yearn for the day when people use it casually, because that would mean that it has lost all of its power and is no longer any more relevant than calling an Irish person "mick".
I would be cautious of letting my desire for the word to lose its power to let me engage in wishful thinking, and assuming
that's already happened.
When blacks are still being discriminated against on a huge scale, that is not the time to say "OK, we no longer have to start worrying about whether our attitudes and art are encouraging discrimination against blacks." You'd think it would be the other way around.
Likewise, when women are still being raped and intimidated on a huge scale, that is not the time to say "OK, men joking about raping and intimidating women is tolerable." You can't act as though things get better until they actually DO get better.
Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:It's not about protecting egos, it's about nudging those on the fence. Some people carry misogynistic views because of cultural baggage or upbringing, but will give them up when presented with compelling arguments or placed in an environment where such views are frowned upon. Such people would very much feel under attack if presented with the definitions of rape culture advanced in this thread, and would be less likely to change. If the goal is to preach to the choir and thereby make oneself feel better, that's OK, but it doesn't make the world a more tolerant place.
I actually don't agree. If "rape culture" is explained intelligently, then to a guy who's "on the fence" the logical response is "well shit, you mean that all those jokes I make about prison rape and objectifying women are making
other men feel more confident and justified in committing a rape, and making it indirectly less likely that rapes will be reported, and maybe causing misery for women who were raped in the past? Maybe I'd better cut back on the jokes."
Any guy who can't look at that rationally and think "maybe I'd better cut back on the rape jokes" when someone explains the problem with rape jokes... he wasn't on the fence to begin with. He has enough of an attitude problem that you are
not going to reach him. Because he's too busy casting about for justifications to keep on doing as he is doing.
Sorry, by responding to both themes of this thread (the private conversation of a few jackasses and the merits of the idea of rape culture in general) I must have made it seem as though I was defending the humorous value of their "jokes". My references to rape jokes were separate from that topic, having mostly to do with jokes such as this:
Louis C.K. on raping hitler, Shameless, 2006. A rape victim or family of such would find this material deeply offensive, yet I doubt that anyone in that audience left with a greater likelihood to commit rape. I would argue that the presence of such jokes by a high-profile comedian correlates with (but does not cause
![Wink ;)](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
) the decline of sexual assault in American society.
And others who have thought about this issue at length disagree with you, and feel that given the way our society now works, just about
any trivialization of rape can promote the idea, by constantly waving it in front of women as a potential threat, and by constantly waving it in front of men as a thing that is sometimes 'okay' or 'normal' or 'accepted' practice.
It's like... I don't think that joking about punching someone in the face is going to automatically make people punch each other. But I've noticed that the people who laugh most and joke most about punching people in the face are often the bullies, the ones most likely to punch, and
by far the ones most likely to threaten people with punches to get their way.
Because they're the ones who are most amused by the whole idea.