Fish For God?

[cadbrowser]

I am not sure if this is the appropriate forum for this discussion, so if a mod deems it necessary to move, then so be it.

I was driving to work this morning listening to my favorite radio station and they were discussing the new movie Captain Phillips with the real Captian Phillips. It was an interresting interview to say the least.

They broke for commercial and this lady came on introducing various horrific headline news articles (Teenager Beat To Death By Parents, Pregnant Woman Killed By Drunk Driver...ad nauseam). Much to my surprise, she addressed the audience to find out if they ever wondered why bad things can happen to good people. "Why, if there was such an omnipotent, loving God, would he allow these things to continue to happen?" Then she went on a spiel about how this new website had all the answers. "Simple, straitforward answers." The site was called Fish For God.

As a matter of policy here at work, all religious and porno sites are blocked (I mean, come on, why else wouldn't you want to get your daily fill of boobs and Jesus?). So I am not able to check it out and see if it is the same bullshit apologetics that every other Christian out there has spewed forth from their oral orifice regarding these questions (i.e. original sin, free will, etc.).

Anyway, thought I'd post this and see if anybody has ever heard or came across this website. Would be interrested to see some of their answers.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Well, right at the top of the home page is "Saved by Jesus" and what it means, followed by "Why do I need to be Saved?" And the obligatory "The FACTS that Other Christians are too Scared to Tell You" about how "being a good person" isn't enough.

Based on that I am not hopeful that it has any insights to offer.

[Spekio]

"The surprising fact of your salvation is this: simply being a "good person" by worldly standards isn't enough to get you into Heaven. And the unfortunate reality is that the alternative is an eternity in Hell. If you believe that an afterlife in Heaven exists, you must also ask yourself how a person gets to Heaven. Going there isn't automatic as many people believe. If you don't believe in Jesus, that he was sent to die for your sins, why would his Father allow you into His home for eternity? Ignorance will not be an acceptable excuse at the pearly gates, especially in a country like ours where information is so readily available including access to Bibles and churches."

Be (my particular brand of) christian or go to hell. There.

[General Zod]

I think Epicurus handled this one rather neatly.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

[Borgholio]

I think Epicurus handled this one rather neatly.

The common fundie counter to that statement is that God has a reason for everything that happens, including the existence of evil.

[General Zod]

I think Epicurus handled this one rather neatly.

The common fundie counter to that statement is that God has a reason for everything that happens, including the existence of evil.

Then God is malevolent, and not, in fact, all loving.

[Borgholio]

Then God is malevolent, and not, in fact, all loving.

Just very tough love, that's all.

[krakonfour]

What if, like some people say, it's all a test? An examiner doesn't necessarily wish you ill will when he issues challenges, right?

[General Zod]

What if, like some people say, it's all a test? An examiner doesn't necessarily wish you ill will when he issues challenges, right?

What kind of god needs to test his people if he already knows how they're going to react? If he doesn't know how they're going to react then how can he be all powerful?

[Borgholio]

What kind of god needs to test his people if he already knows how they're going to react? If he doesn't know how they're going to react then how can he be all powerful?

To take this one step further, what could you possibly gain by testing a mother by making her watch her child be murdered in front of her eyes, or starve to death slowly and painfully? What would be gained by allowing that child to die a slow and agonizing death?

[General Zod]

What kind of god needs to test his people if he already knows how they're going to react? If he doesn't know how they're going to react then how can he be all powerful?

To take this one step further, what could you possibly gain by testing a mother by making her watch her child be murdered in front of her eyes, or starve to death slowly and painfully? What would be gained by allowing that child to die a slow and agonizing death?

The only rational conclusion is that god is really a sociopath.

[krakonfour]

What kind of god needs to test his people if he already knows how they're going to react? If he doesn't know how they're going to react then how can he be all powerful?

Insert mumbo-jumbo about how humans have free will and are free to decide their own fate, all God knows is the events outside of human control ect. ect.
The argument can be taken from another point of view: If God can predict how we react, then what's the point of considering ourselves conscious and responsible for our actions? What are therefore the criteria for choosing whether we enter Heaven or Hell? The logic breaks down at that point, the only possible solution for the dilemma is that God deliberately veils from himself the knowledge of our actions, or that he knows all possible outcomes and that it is up to us to decide which course we take...

To take this one step further, what could you possibly gain by testing a mother by making her watch her child be murdered in front of her eyes, or starve to death slowly and painfully? What would be gained by allowing that child to die a slow and agonizing death?

I don't know about Christianity, but children and animals are considered irresponsible souls that are completely under the control of God and are granted immediate access to Heaven if they die. The same goes for hunger, health, wealth and so on... If you are desperately hungry, do you starve to death or do you kill and steal from your neighbor? If you have terminal cancer, do you go wild and do everything you can in your remaining days?
Also, there is the concept of pain. Is God evil because he delivers pain and death? Or is he evil because he does not end all suffering and need, creating a Heaven on Earth? What is the point of Earth? According to most interpretations on all major religions, the time spent in Heaven far exceeds the human lifespan on Earth. Maybe then we should put it under the perspective of a practically immortal soul living a perfect life: What would a few year's suffering be worth? A few months? One horrible death? I don't know. It's up to you to decide the course of your actions (or maybe not) and believe in all this (or increasingly don't).

The only rational conclusion is that god is really a sociopath.

[/quote]

Minor quibble: God is a sociopath in which society of peers?

[General Zod]

The argument can be taken from another point of view: If God can predict how we react, then what's the point of considering ourselves conscious and responsible for our actions? What are therefore the criteria for choosing whether we enter Heaven or Hell? The logic breaks down at that point, the only possible solution for the dilemma is that God deliberately veils from himself the knowledge of our actions, or that he knows all possible outcomes and that it is up to us to decide which course we take...

That means God isn't willing to prevent evil. Where's the unconditional love in that?

Minor quibble: God is a sociopath in which society of peers?

Take your pick?

[krakonfour]

That means God isn't willing to prevent evil. Where's the unconditional love in that?

If you had children, you would unconditionally love them just because they are your children. Doesn't stop them from become adults in their own right and doing whatever they want.

Take your pick?

It was rhetorical. God is unique and has no society or equals to stand judge Him.

[cadbrowser]

If you had children, you would unconditionally love them just because they are your children. Doesn't stop them from become adults in their own right and doing whatever they want.

Yes, but said parent doesn't punish or threaten to punish their children's children (for all time) because they acquired adulthood and went their own path. Their "God" does. In fact, their "God" punishes ALL of humanity with the threat of eternal damnation for ONE woman's mistake. And then their "God" gives an ulitimatum...Love me, worship me, or suffer Hell. No normal HUMAN parent I know of has ever commited, much less condoned, this sort of behavior. And yet..."God Is Love"?

God condemns the actions of his creations for merely being human.

God is unique and has no society or equals to stand judge Him.

No, God really isn't that unique. He's just an overblown, warmongering, abusive Caananite mountain god.

[krakonfour]

Yes, but said parent doesn't punish or threaten to punish their children's children (for all time) because they acquired adulthood and went their own path. Their "God" does. In fact, their "God" punishes ALL of humanity with the threat of eternal damnation for ONE woman's mistake. And then their "God" gives an ulitimatum...Love me, worship me, or suffer Hell. No normal HUMAN parent I know of has ever commited, much less condoned, this sort of behavior. And yet..."God Is Love"?

God condemns the actions of his creations for merely being human.

I don't know about that, sorry. Over here, it's a temporary stay at hell at most, and you eventually get into Heaven, whoever you are, just because you're human. Also, He demands respect and acknowledgement as the ruler of creation, not love.

The concept of Original Sin is specific to the Western Church. Also, Adam doesn't put the blame on Eve and thus stigmatize women for all time, but I'm just digressing from the real question:

Why are Humans on Earth if God does not need them to do anything but love and worship Him? If they are on Earth, and it is a punishment for the sins committed by Adam and Eve, then God is evil because he is making the children pay for mistakes they inherited instead of committing themselves. That is injustice. For a good God to exist, one of the previous statements have to be modified.
Living on Earth, with the reward of Heaven, is not punishment.
Living on Earth, is punishment, but for something inherently bad about humanity.

After all, God is forgiving by definition because He didn't immediately cast Adam and Eve into the fires of Hell for their transgression.

No, God really isn't that unique. He's just an overblown, warmongering, abusive Caananite mountain god.

Maybe.

[Formless]

What if, like some people say, it's all a test? An examiner doesn't necessarily wish you ill will when he issues challenges, right?

What kind of god needs to test his people if he already knows how they're going to react? If he doesn't know how they're going to react then how can he be all powerful?

More importantly, a good examiner doesn't put you through life threatening challenges if he can avoid it. That's just basic safety ethics, man. If it were the Devil doing such a test, Christians would take it as a challenge to their faith, and condemn Satan for it. They have a double standard built directly into their belief system, and expect that hastily slapped on labels of Good Vs Evil (as defined by their own Bible) should be enough for anyone.

[Borgholio]

Saw some billboards the other day that were perfect examples . Put up by athiest groups.

Yeah I know the Psalm is taken a bit out of context. The full context is basically "You tore down our city (Jersualem) and murdered our people. So God will bless those who murder your children as payback"

All loving God, indeed.

[krakonfour]

More importantly, a good examiner doesn't put you through life threatening challenges if he can avoid it. That's just basic safety ethics, man. If it were the Devil doing such a test, Christians would take it as a challenge to their faith, and condemn Satan for it. They have a double standard built directly into their belief system, and expect that hastily slapped on labels of Good Vs Evil (as defined by their own Bible) should be enough for anyone.

Stop thinking from the human point of view! We think that basic safety ethics do not involve the death of the participant. Why is death inherently bad? Maybe God just sees it this way:
-You die due to the hardships he imposes for you. A single test was enough to judge you.
-You live in suffering for a long time. Your endurance to hardships was the test.
-You live a happy, fulfilling life. That's a test too. Do you use your health and wealth to help others? Do you thank God for what he gave you or do you expect more and think yourself invincible, or even without a need for a God?

Also, we have to separate the different types of pain and tests we can expect to encounter, and thus the consequences.
We have physical pain; pain that affects out body and might kill us. Things such as genetic diseases, epidemics, natural disasters, even the famines are entirely God's doing. Whether we survive them or not is therefore of no consequence. What matters is how we react to them, whether we start hating God or thinking that our pain is greater than those of others and so on...
The other is a mental challenge. Evil thoughts and the actions based on them are entirely of our doing: we are therefore fully responsible and judged accordingly. Some say Satan goes around corrupting us, others say that we are inherently bad and therefore have such thoughts. In Christianity, bad thoughts are sins, and we must repent for having them. In other religions, it may be different. Overcoming ill will and banishing evil thoughts becomes a good thing, for example.

[cadbrowser]

I don't know about that, sorry. Over here, it's a temporary stay at hell at most, and you eventually get into Heaven, whoever you are, just because you're human. Also, He demands respect and acknowledgement as the ruler of creation, not love.

Bullshit. Read the fucking Bible.

I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no on comes to the Father but by me.

Standard, get into heaven spiel. All of the Christians over here, would call what you are teaching "over there" contrary to the Word of God and thus you are false prophets, antichrist, and going to hell.

Adam doesn't put the blame on Eve...

Wrong...read the Bible. When God ask Adam what he did, instead of manning up to admit disobedeance he first BLAMES EVE. In turn Eve blames the Serpent.

Why are Humans on Earth if God does not need them to do anything but love and worship Him?

The Bible is pretty specific as to why. I forget the passage, but God is SO despirate for praise that if we "humans" won't do it, he will cause the rest of creation (only on Earth apparently) to worship him (paraphrasing here). The rocks will cry out, bla bla bla.

After all, God is forgiving by definition because He didn't immediately cast Adam and Eve into the fires of Hell for their transgression.

You're pretty fucking delusional on this. God CURSES Adam, Eve, AND the serpent. And extends this curse for ALL of fucking humanity and their offspring. It wasn't until Abraham that God decided humanity had enough and attempted to establish a covenant...course, ONLY if Abraham was willing to sacrifice his first born. Oh yeah...that's fucking forgiveness.

Do you even know what forgiveness means?

Maybe.

What research have you conducted to rebut my claim?

Stop thinking from the human point of view! Snip "bla bla bla"

That's the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard of. I AM HUMAN, moron.

Strawman...nobody here has said that death is inherently bad. THE SUFFERING OF OUR FELLOW HUMANS AND THE APPARENT LACK OF WILL FROM AN OMNIPOTENT BEING TO PREVENT IT! That is EVIL.

Are you an apologist or something, or merely playing "devil's advocate"?

In Christianity, bad thoughts are sins, and we must repent for having them. In other religions, it may be different. Overcoming ill will and banishing evil thoughts becomes a good thing, for example.

Define "bad thoughts" according to Christianity. Then cross fucking reference those with human fucking nature. You will see a trend here.

Wrong, thoughts hurt no-one. I can sit here and think the worst thoughts imaginable agaisnt my cunt ex-wife and how she refuses to allow me to see my kids. I am not hurting her. She doesn't even fucking know.

[General Zod]

That means God isn't willing to prevent evil. Where's the unconditional love in that?

If you had children, you would unconditionally love them just because they are your children. Doesn't stop them from become adults in their own right and doing whatever they want.

Utterly irrelevant to my point. If a parent had the ability to prevent something horrible from happening to their child and they refused, they'd be thrown in jail for gross negligance at a minimum.

[krakonfour]

Whoah, calm down. And read.
I'll highlight the part of my post you didn't read and started going ballistic over. No need to call me delusional either, otherwise you wouldn't be bother to type a reply.

I don't know about that, sorry. Over here, it's a temporary stay at hell at most, and you eventually get into Heaven, whoever you are, just because you're human. Also, He demands respect and acknowledgement as the ruler of creation, not love.

Have you ever considered that 'not knowing about the basic principles of Christianty' might mean that 'I believe in a whole fucking different set of beliefs, maybe even another religion?'

Bullshit. Read the fucking Bible.

See above. I might have learnt things differently than what is printed in the Bible.

I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no on comes to the Father but by me.

Standard, get into heaven spiel. All of the Christians over here, would call what you are teaching "over there" contrary to the Word of God and thus you are false prophets, antichrist, and going to hell.[/Quote]

Doubly false. First, I undeerstand that that quote has an equivalent over here, essentially saying that there is no other 'good belief' other than that defined by this particular God, and that is a consequence of believing in a single God. Also, we put a lot of emphasis on respecting other beliefs, and there is no need for antichrists, false prophets and all that drivel to realize an alternate path exists if you believe in it.
After all, it is a recognized possibility for all members of the three major religions to attain heaven.

Wrong...read the Bible. When God ask Adam what he did, instead of manning up to admit disobedeance he first BLAMES EVE. In turn Eve blames the Serpent.

See above.

The Bible is pretty specific as to why. I forget the passage, but God is SO despirate for praise that if we "humans" won't do it, he will cause the rest of creation (only on Earth apparently) to worship him (paraphrasing here). The rocks will cry out, bla bla bla.

Okay.
Also, why would God be desperate for anything? He is all-powerful, and has no needs. What he does is demand respect.

Imagine a large corporation. Over the years, you built it up to what it is now, and you own and manage it. One day, an employee clips your parking lot and gives you the finger on his way to work. A human would get angry and fire him. Now if you were God and the corporation was Earth, firing the guy would mean killing him.

What happens when you disrespect God?

Also, the thing about all of creation praising god if humanity refuses to do is a way of showing how much mastery over reality and power over creation God wields. If even the rocks recognize that God is God, why wouldn't Humans do so?

You're pretty fucking delusional on this. God CURSES Adam, Eve, AND the serpent. And extends this curse for ALL of fucking humanity and their offspring. It wasn't until Abraham that God decided humanity had enough and attempted to establish a covenant...course, ONLY if Abraham was willing to sacrifice his first born. Oh yeah...that's fucking forgiveness.

I think... harsh words and a hard life on Earth before they end up in Heaven is still better than roasting in Hell forever. Also, Abraham is a special case. Humanity, without guidance, fell into decay after Adam and Eve died and generations rolled past. Decay, not only in a spiritual sense of not following God's orders or doing things fit to put the lot of them in a mental hospital today, but also in a real physical sense of putting humanity as a species on the line.
The first-born sacrifice was a test of how far Abraham would follow the voice in his head. We have to put thins in perspective. All Abraham had to go on was what God told him to, a few visions of angels and a set of laws he wrote down with his own hand on a stone. Everyone else is doing whatever the hell they want. Now, this voice wants him to risk his life trying to convert the masses to his own laws.
Considering the fact that human sacrifices and murder in broad daylight were considered pretty tame at the time, it was a scary thing to do. So God issued a test of faith.

And in the end, come on, did he kill his son?

What research have you conducted to rebut my claim?

What research have you conducted to prove that 'maybe'='rebut your claim'?

Stop thinking from the human point of view! Snip "bla bla bla"
That's the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard of. I AM HUMAN, moron.

Heh.
So you're telling me, as an intelligent conscious entity, that there is no way for you to imagine yourself unbound of a few restrictions.
Okay, here's something to ponder:
You don't need to eat.
You don't need to buy food, store it, prepare it... you don't need to allocate space to grow it, chemicals to fertilize it, labor to farm it... and so on.
Now imagine you don't need water. Air. A fixed shape. A fixed volume. A fixed weight. Moving on, let's give you abilities. Imagine you can fly. Swim like a fish. Teleportation. Time Travel. Mind reading. Telekenesis.... Very quickly, the imaginary figure is far from human, the concern and issues the figure has to face will be wildly different, and the actions can be deduced logically based on the new limitations.
We can continue this until you have an all-powerful entity free from anything. Yeah, that's God. How would He react to this or that?

If you are a dog, then you cannot think except like a dog. If you are human, you can frikken simulate a completely different mind within your own.

Strawman...nobody here has said that death is inherently bad. THE SUFFERING OF OUR FELLOW HUMANS AND THE APPARENT LACK OF WILL FROM AN OMNIPOTENT BEING TO PREVENT IT! That is EVIL.

What are the sources of suffering?
The ones out of human control are governed by the laws of Nature. An epidemic or a drought don't appear out of nowhere, they come from a virus we can combat or a water shortage we can relieve. The rest are caused by humans and their actions, deliberate or not. In that case... why blame God for the murder deciding to kill? Why blame God for a massacre a General decided must be done? A stillbirth is caused by an imbalance of hormones. A delinquent is caused by bad parents.

Are you an apologist or something, or merely playing "devil's advocate"?

Maybe.

Define "bad thoughts" according to Christianity. Then cross fucking reference those with human fucking nature. You will see a trend here.

I try and avoid saying anything about Christianity is wrong.

Wrong, thoughts hurt no-one. I can sit here and think the worst thoughts imaginable agaisnt my cunt ex-wife and how she refuses to allow me to see my kids. I am not hurting her. She doesn't even fucking know.

Christianity blames you for being evil because you think evil things. I think you did a good thing for not acting upon those thoughts.

While I was writing:

Utterly irrelevant to my point. If a parent had the ability to prevent something horrible from happening to their child and they refused, they'd be thrown in jail for gross negligance at a minimum.

Still relevant. If an adult harms a toddler under your care, it is your responsibility to stop it. If that toddler is 30 years old and has something happen to him or her, then its not your responsibility to shield him or her from harm. You can guide, counsel or help, but you cannot pay for their adult mistakes.

Humanity had a toddler stage, in Eden. Then it grew up, left the house and lived for itself.

[Formless]

Stop thinking from the human point of view! We think that basic safety ethics do not involve the death of the participant. Why is death inherently bad? Maybe God just sees it this way:

Read the Temptation of Christ. While fasting in a desert, for no real reason except it satisfies God or something, Jesus is confronted by Satan and reminded that, hey, you are god, right? Or the son of god, whatever. You can make bread out of stones, have angels break your fall if you slip on a cliff, etc.. And even though the devil is by all means completely correct and even quotes scripture to support these facts, Jesus still condemns him. For what? Telling him the truth? Fucks sake, after Satan leaves angels come and feed him Mana and shit, one of the very things Satan tempted Jesus to do! I guess its only wrong if Satan is telling you to do it.

In the end, the only thing Satan does wrong is tell the truth, and ask Jesus to worship him. And the latter is essentially no better or worse than Yahweh asking anyone else to worship him, especially when you consider that Satan commits... precisely no wanton acts of destruction or anything like that that is recorded in the bible. Yahweh, on the other hand, freely doles out divine punishment to the Egyptians by killing their children, and once his beloved Jews are free he then instructs them to go east to kill everyone they meet in what is now Jerusalem because "this is your promised land now, fuck 'em". The only difference between Satan asking you to worship him and Yahweh asking you to worship him is.... shut up, Satan. No actual argument to satisfy the mortal logic we've been gifted with, just a STFU to anyone who questions Yahweh the Warmonger.

Double standard, by definition. Saying its a matter of mortal perspective is special pleading and irrelevant.

-You die due to the hardships he imposes for you. A single test was enough to judge you.

Death is suffering. Fuck him.

-You live in suffering for a long time. Your endurance to hardships was the test.

Suffering is evil. Fuck him.

-You live a happy, fulfilling life. That's a test too. Do you use your health and wealth to help others? Do you thank God for what he gave you or do you expect more and think yourself invincible, or even without a need for a God?

I can live a far more healthy and fulfilling life if Yahweh would fuck off to Hell and stop torturing people until they worship him blindly. Otherwise, he is an evil influence who people like myself with actual fucking morals should actively work to destroy and discredit. Animals have a different perspective from me too, but if I am attacked by a rabid dog I shoot the dog. Thanks for playing, try thinking ahead sometime and realize I've heard it all before. I used to be Catholic, I know the dogma and the lies.

Also, we have to separate the different types of pain and tests we can expect to encounter, and thus the consequences.
We have physical pain; pain that affects out body and might kill us. Things such as genetic diseases, epidemics, natural disasters, even the famines are entirely God's doing.

Good point. I have epilepsy. I actually know what it is like to have one of these conditions. You don't. Why is that? Why did god decide, before I was ever born, that I have to be tested like that and you don't? Why is there no standard test, jackass, or did you not anticipate that you would be talking to someone who might actually have to deal with this shit? Would you believe that the thing which made me realize that there is no such thing as the soul was having my brain scrambled just enough to lose all memory of walking home (effectively unconscious!) one day while on a walk? Why would God issue to me a test where the correct answer seems to be in direct contradiction with his book of prejudice and dogma?

Whether we survive them or not is therefore of no consequence.

"Thou shalt not kill" only applies to us humans, huh? Again, double standards. Morality cannot abide by them.

What matters is how we react to them, whether we start hating God or thinking that our pain is greater than those of others and so on...

Its not about hate. Its about a desire to stop suffering. What you are saying is, God is a torturer. Torture often leads people to say whatever the torturer wants to hear, even if its a lie 9and self deception is quite possible!); to anyone who knows this, as God must know, the purpose of Torture therefore isn't to get the Truth. Its torture for its own sake.

I don't hate God. I hate the mindless assholes who buy into his lies, and downplay the significance of my health problems as "a test". If god exists, would I hate him? Or would I be utterly disgusted by him? Would I simply decide that for the good of my conscience that I must act against him, without any emotion at all? You work from stereotypes, you end up with utter crap dribbling from your mouth. Or in this case, keyboard.

The other is a mental challenge. Evil thoughts and the actions based on them are entirely of our doing: we are therefore fully responsible and judged accordingly.

Nice try, but everyone has evil thoughts. How else would we know our own vices? How else would we know what behaviors we should not act upon? If God has made Thoughtcrime a sin it is only so we do not know when we have committed real crimes. Conclusion: God is Big Brother, and therefor evil.

By the way, I also suffer from ADHD. Why would God create mental problems like that in the first place if he is perfect and wished to test his creations mentally? Sabotaging us in this way doesn't serve any purpose, unless he wanted to create us merely for his own sadistic pleasure. Hell, why did he create anything at all? What is God, and why would he feel the need to make this uncaring cosmos? At least a sadistic god has a reason-- to create playthings he can torment. The logic of testing us mentally can be turned around, and it is God who is found wanting for answers.

Its funny shattering people's worldviews using their own logic.

Some say Satan goes around corrupting us, others say that we are inherently bad and therefore have such thoughts.

If we are inherently bad, and we are God's creation made in his image, then God is inherently bad AND has no higher power keeping him in check. Good job not thinking that one through.

In Christianity, bad thoughts are sins, and we must repent for having them. In other religions, it may be different. Overcoming ill will and banishing evil thoughts becomes a good thing, for example.

Its good to overcome evil thought, but still having those thoughts after overcoming them is human. Repressing them is dangerous. Acknowledging them is healthy, and necessary towards changing yourself and understanding those who are less virtuous than you. The concept of repentance however ranges from the utterly bizarre to things that are counterproductive. Rituals that don't mean anything, giving money to institutions that actually act against your conscience, and confession, which only serves as a painted on excuse for not acting to fix your misdeeds in real life because, hey, you've already apologized to the Almighty, what is more important than saving your own soul?

In short, you seem ignorant of how anyone outside your religious circle thinks about morals and logic, and seem to operate from the assumption that we have never read a bible even though few people are raised as atheists.

[bilateralrope]

Insert mumbo-jumbo about how humans have free will and are free to decide their own fate, all God knows is the events outside of human control ect. ect.

I've never understood how there is any conflict between subjects with free will and someone who knows the subjects well enough that he can predict what choices the subjects will make.

[Formless]

I think Epicurus handled this one rather neatly.

The common fundie counter to that statement is that God has a reason for everything that happens, including the existence of evil.

Which is a meaningless response. For what reason was evil created? is the correct counter. There is no way for them to answer that question without making god out to be either vile, or redefining his characteristics until he is no longer a sentient force in the world.