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 Post subject: Here I thought the stupidity can't get worse - homeopathy PostPosted: 2012-10-09 08:24am
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Homeopathy is the bullshit art where you dilute a poisonous substance into ridiculously low quantities (such that not even one molecule remains in the solution you sell) and then you sell it as a cure. You see the water magically remembers the substance even if none is left. But lets not question this too closely because one might be forced to ask, how come rainwater doesn't remember the substances it gets in contact with. In my state of Western Australia there was also a well publicised case of a woman who refused colorectal surgery in favour of homeopathic rubbish and as a result the cancer eventually spread.

Now its even claimed that it can treat domestic violence.
domestic violence

Quote:
Claims that homeopathy treats domestic violence must be stopped, experts say

SOME Australian homeopaths claim they can treat anything from autism to deadly infections to violence, including domestic violence.
Sydney clinic Homeopathy Plus, for example, promotes the use of homeopathy for potentially fatal anaphylactic shock and post-childbirth infections and director Fran Sheffield said homeopathy can treat “excesses of human behaviour” including domestic violence.

Homeopathy involves diluting various substances such as plants in water to such an extent that sometimes only a minute amount of the original substance is left.

The Australian Medical Association says it is “untested, unproven”. The National Medical Health and Research Council says it doesn’t work, and Australian Skeptics president Richard Saunders says it is “closer to witchcraft than to medicine”.

The Homeopathy Plus website links to an article that claims homeopathy is “a safe and effective way to treat the victims as well as the culprits of domestic violence” and contains a list of remedies for both victims and perpetrators.

Asked whether she really believed homeopathy could treat domestic violence, Ms Sheffield told news.com.au that “uncontrollable rage and anger” were symptoms of an imbalance that homeopathy could fix.

“Few people realise that homeopathy can rebalance that mental/emotional area dealing with jealousy, frustration, anger, an inability to balance their emotions,” she said.


“We can treat anxiety homeopathically. The same can be true for many emotions.”

Ms Sheffield said she had only treated one man for violence but believed she was successful.

AMA President Dr Steve Hambleton said homeopathy was not even “biologically plausible” and that it was dangerous to pretend it could work, and called for sanctions against “outrageous claims”.

“There is a potentially very severe problem that victims or perpetrators are being diverted into a pathway for which there’s no plausible evidence,” he said.

“This may stop someone in a potentially dangerous situation from making a decision that will keep them safe, and keeping them safe should be the first priority.

“There need to be sanctions for people who make outrageous claims without evidence.”

Mr Saunders said homeopathy was a “huge money spinner” that should be “cracked down on” and called the claim it could treat domestic violence “sick”.

“If it wasn’t so sick it would be laughable,” he said.

“It’s a huge money spinner, you sell sugar and water (which substances are diluted in) for thousands of times their cost price. It should be absolutely cracked down on.

“They’ve got away with it for so long because it’s got nothing in it, so it can’t actually hurt you; it’s non-existent. But the real harm comes from people thinking it’s going to help.”

The NHMRC, Australia’s leading health expertise body, has formed a Homeopathy Working Committee to develop a position statement on homeopathy. A draft statement found it was unethical to use homeopathy because it doesn’t work, and that it could be risky if using it caused someone to delay real, effective treatment.



Its more stupid than the homeopath who claimed you can't overdose on it (actually in the quantities he is suggesting you drink, you can die from water toxicity).

When will people learn?

Edit - you know what. I have a better idea. Let homeopaths take the same risks real doctors take. Allow their patients to sue them for negligence, requiring them to get medical insurance.



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 Post subject: Re: Here I thought the stupidity can't get worse - homeopath PostPosted: 2012-10-09 08:46am
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People are allowed to adovocate homeopathy to treat anaphylactic shock? The fuck? They might as well say you shouldn't take atropine when exposed to nerve agents!

But I guess this is the result of government not holding "alternative medicine" to any sort of standard whatsoever. Just look at how the quacks panic about codex alimentarius: OH NO WE WON'T BE ABLE TO CLAIM OUR TREATMENTS WORK WITHOUT RUNNING CLINICAL TRIALS FIRST! TYRANNY!

They do that because they fucking know they're quacks, liars and cheats.



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 Post subject: Re: Here I thought the stupidity can't get worse - homeopath PostPosted: 2012-10-09 09:15am
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One annoying thing here is that some products which are not actually homeopathic are labled as such. There is no widespread knowlege of what homeopathy actually is. People generally think that it´s "just some sort of stuff with plants and extracts ona natural basis" or something similar.
Lots of people don´t know about the dillution thing. Hell, a friend of mine is a medical doctor and he said that homeopathy isn´t all that bad and he didn´t believe me when I told him about the dillution. He looked it up later and now he agrees with me but the wide spreade ignorance even among specialists is frustrating and a bit frightening.
At least its like that around here.

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 Post subject: Re: Here I thought the stupidity can't get worse - homeopath PostPosted: 2012-10-09 09:20am
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That may be because homeopaths tends to go full retard and accept all sorts of OTHER alternative medicine woo-woo from ear candling to cancer-curing herbal remedies.



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JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
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Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.

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 Post subject: Re: Here I thought the stupidity can't get worse - homeopath PostPosted: 2012-10-09 09:34am
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PeZook wrote:
That may be because homeopaths tends to go full retard and accept all sorts of OTHER alternative medicine woo-woo from ear candling to cancer-curing herbal remedies.

Well, things i acutally have no problems with are thought to be homeopathic. If you´ve got a sore throat I see nothing wrong with eathing a methol pill. But a menthol actaullay contains stuff, so it´s not homeopathic. But people think it is.

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 Post subject: Re: Here I thought the stupidity can't get worse - homeopath PostPosted: 2012-10-09 09:48am
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salm wrote:
Well, things i acutally have no problems with are thought to be homeopathic. If you´ve got a sore throat I see nothing wrong with eathing a methol pill. But a menthol actaullay contains stuff, so it´s not homeopathic. But people think it is.


Yeah, but homeopathy isn't something you study in med school in any depth, so a lot of things get poisoned by association ; A guy who's heavily into homeopathy might also be into herbal remedies and supplements, some of which actually work. For a person who doesn't know anything beyond what he heard in passing they might sound like the same thing by extension.



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JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.

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 Post subject: Re: Here I thought the stupidity can't get worse - homeopath PostPosted: 2012-10-09 01:48pm
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PeZook wrote:
People are allowed to adovocate homeopathy to treat anaphylactic shock? The fuck? They might as well say you shouldn't take atropine when exposed to nerve agents!

But I guess this is the result of government not holding "alternative medicine" to any sort of standard whatsoever. Just look at how the quacks panic about codex alimentarius: OH NO WE WON'T BE ABLE TO CLAIM OUR TREATMENTS WORK WITHOUT RUNNING CLINICAL TRIALS FIRST! TYRANNY!

They do that because they fucking know they're quacks, liars and cheats.

Epinephrine is just adrenaline, so it's actually "all natural" in that your body produces it. Shouldn't that count as homeopathy, or is it disqualified because it's made in a proper lab with appropriate safety standards and not by an alchemist witch doctor somewhere?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin



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 Post subject: Re: Here I thought the stupidity can't get worse - homeopath PostPosted: 2012-10-09 02:00pm
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Yeah, I actually thought "homeopathy" was just a catch-call term for alternative, "natural", wholistic bullshit medicine. I didn't realize that it was so specific, referring to the dilution nonsense.



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 Post subject: Re: Here I thought the stupidity can't get worse - homeopath PostPosted: 2012-10-09 02:14pm
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fgalkin wrote:
Epinephrine is just adrenaline, so it's actually "all natural" in that your body produces it. Shouldn't that count as homeopathy, or is it disqualified because it's made in a proper lab with appropriate safety standards and not by an alchemist witch doctor somewhere?


Ahhh, I see you underestimate the crazy of homeopathy.

For a start, the basis of homeopathy is "like cures like". that means that to cure a thing you need to use something that produces the thing (or similar symptoms). So to cure anaphylactic shock you would use something that causes it. Bee venom, or peanuts maybe,

Then you dilute one part of your active agent in ten parts of water and shake it. (the shaking is important and special).

Then you dilute one part of your solution in ten parts of water and shake it.

Then you dilute one part of your solution in ten parts of water and shake it.

Then you dilute one part of your solution in ten parts of water and shake it.

Then you dilute one part of your solution in ten parts of water and shake it.

Then you dilute one part of your solution in ten parts of water and shake it.

Then you dilute one part of your solution in ten parts of water and shake it.

Then you dilute one part of your solution in ten parts of water and shake it.

Then you dilute one part of your solution in ten parts of water and shake it.

Then you dilute one part of your solution in ten parts of water and shake it.

Then you dilute one part of your solution in ten parts of water and shake it.

Then you dilute one part of your solution in ten parts of water and shake it.

Then you dilute one part of your solution in ten parts of water and shake it.

Then you dilute one part of your solution in ten parts of water and shake it.

Then you dilute one part of your solution in ten parts of water and shake it.

Then you dilute one part of your solution in ten parts of water and shake it.

Then you dilute one part of your solution in ten parts of water and shake it.

Then you dilute one part of your solution in ten parts of water and shake it.

Then you dilute one part of your solution in ten parts of water and shake it.

Then you dilute one part of your solution in ten parts of water and shake it.

Then you dilute one part of your solution in ten parts of water and shake it.

Then you dilute one part of your solution in ten parts of water and shake it.

Then you dilute one part of your solution in ten parts of water and shake it.

Then you dilute one part of your solution in ten parts of water and shake it.

(Is the crazy sinking in yet? Well you do that anywhere between 30 and 300 times. The more times you do it, the stronger the medicine gets.)

Homeopathy isn't particularly "all natural". "Natural" remedies are frequently just the things we found and refined into actual medicines absent the rest of the plant that didn't do anything. Homeopathy is a special kind of crazy.

And as for overdosing, as Dara O'Briain noted, you could fuckin' drown.

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 Post subject: Re: Here I thought the stupidity can't get worse - homeopath PostPosted: 2012-10-09 02:40pm
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fgalkin wrote:
Epinephrine is just adrenaline, so it's actually "all natural" in that your body produces it. Shouldn't that count as homeopathy, or is it disqualified because it's made in a proper lab with appropriate safety standards and not by an alchemist witch doctor somewhere?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin


No, no. You see, if you go into anaphylactic shock, you should take sugar pills soaked in special water infused with the resonant energy of the thing which caused said shock.

As far as I'm concerned, advocating that people should use homeopathy to treat acute, life-threatening conditions is fucking criminal.

You know what's doubly funny? The OP quoted an article which said you can't overdose on homeopathy because it's nice and safe, unlike those terrible traditional medicines which are "just chemicals" which are "incompatible" with the human body,which is why they are toxic in large doses.

By this logic, adrenaline is also incompatible with the human body, because a large dose (which really isn't all THAT large) can easily kill you.

...I couldn't write that sentence with a straight face.



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JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.

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 Post subject: Re: Here I thought the stupidity can't get worse - homeopath PostPosted: 2012-10-09 03:48pm
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fgalkin wrote:
Epinephrine is just adrenaline, so it's actually "all natural" in that your body produces it. Shouldn't that count as homeopathy, or is it disqualified because it's made in a proper lab with appropriate safety standards and not by an alchemist witch doctor somewhere?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin


This statement is a perfect example of what I´m talking about.

People think that "natural" is the same as homeopathy. If you tell them that homeopathy is nonsense they will respond in a defensive manner because the think you are attacking all "natural" medicines. Some "natural" medicines do work, so it would be stupid to attack them on a general basis.

The word "homeopathy" is so diluted (heh) nowadays that it´s pain in the ass to differentiate between the original and the new meaning.

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 Post subject: Re: Here I thought the stupidity can't get worse - homeopath PostPosted: 2012-10-09 05:05pm
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You know, maybe homeopathy can in some cases "cure" domestic violence and other emotional/attitude problems, just by placebo effect. It is a psychological effect acting on a psychological problem.

Homeopathy is, as stated, the idea that "Like cures Like", so to cure arsenic poisoning, you would use arsenic. Now, not even a homeopath would think that dosing someone up with straight arsenic was a good idea (and anyway, some of the substances to induce symptoms could apparently be quite expensive), and so you dilute it down. A lot. Then you have a problem that you're charging someone a lot of money for something that's diluted, so you then make the miraculous discover it gets MORE POWERFUL!!! the more it's diluted. Which then gives you an excuse to dilute it even more, and charge more for it. Win, win. It gets diluted so much, there's no longer any significant probability of even one molecule of active ingredient left in the liquid.

Homeopathy relies on the fact that, left to their own devices, people tend to get better themselves. Ironically, it was a more successful treatment than the conventional, back when the conventional was to bleed them, but we haven't been bleeding people for some time.
So, to any visitors reading this and considering homeopathy, you are paying a bunch of money for water. You'll be just as likely to get better if you take some time off and rest up. And you'll have some money spare to see a real doctor.



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 Post subject: Re: Here I thought the stupidity can't get worse - homeopath PostPosted: 2012-10-09 06:40pm
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Some educational and amusing videos on the subject.




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 Post subject: Re: Here I thought the stupidity can't get worse - homeopath PostPosted: 2012-10-10 12:58am
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Vendetta wrote:
Homeopathy isn't particularly "all natural". "Natural" remedies are frequently just the things we found and refined into actual medicines absent the rest of the plant that didn't do anything. Homeopathy is a special kind of crazy.


For example, we get nerve gas antidote (atropine) from nightshade, so it's essentially a "herbal remedy" :D



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JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.

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 Post subject: Re: Here I thought the stupidity can't get worse - homeopath PostPosted: 2012-10-10 08:02am
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Vendetta wrote:
Some educational and amusing videos on the subject.

snip videos


This one is also quite neat.

It talks about the history of when homeopathy made a come back with the French scientist Benveniste who did research on immunology, particularly in allergies. The idea that water remembers came about because of the dilution of histamine in water still provoked a reaction in various immune cells (the basophils), even at low quantities. Before I go on, it seems plain water produced a reaction in basophil cells anyway, so wouldn't a better test for homeopathy be one where they used a substance which doesn't react with water? Anyway, he submitted it into a peer review journal and they were wary about submitting it, even though Benveniste had a great reputation in his field. So the editors got some help from..... James Randi.

Randi made the researchers blind themselves when performing the experiment, and voila... the homeopathy bullshit disappeared.



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 Post subject: Re: Here I thought the stupidity can't get worse - homeopath PostPosted: 2012-10-11 11:57am
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mr friendly guy wrote:
Its more stupid than the homeopath who claimed you can't overdose on it
Well you can drown...



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