Want to reduce animal cruelty? Eat more meat!

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Want to reduce animal cruelty? Eat more meat!

Post by Elfdart »

In Australia, anyway:
16 December 2011, 6.34am AEST
Ordering the vegetarian meal? There’s more animal blood on your hands.

The ethics of eating red meat have been grilled recently by critics who question its consequences for environmental health and animal welfare. But if you want to minimise animal suffering and promote more sustainable agriculture, adopting a vegetarian diet might be the worst possible thing you could do.

Renowned ethicist Peter Singer says if there is a range of ways of feeding ourselves, we should choose the way that causes the least unnecessary harm to animals. Most animal rights advocates say this means we should eat plants rather than animals.

It takes somewhere between two to ten kilos of plants, depending on the type of plants involved, to produce one kilo of animal. Given the limited amount of productive land in the world, it would seem to some to make more sense to focus our culinary attentions on plants, because we would arguably get more energy per hectare for human consumption. Theoretically this should also mean fewer sentient animals would be killed to feed the ravenous appetites of ever more humans.

But before scratching rangelands-produced red meat off the “good to eat” list for ethical or environmental reasons, let’s test these presumptions.

Published figures suggest that, in Australia, producing wheat and other grains results in:
[*]
at least 25 times more sentient animals being killed per kilogram of useable protein
more environmental damage, and

[*]a great deal more animal cruelty than does farming red meat.
How is this possible?

Agriculture to produce wheat, rice and pulses requires clear-felling native vegetation. That act alone results in the deaths of thousands of Australian animals and plants per hectare. Since Europeans arrived on this continent we have lost more than half of Australia’s unique native vegetation, mostly to increase production of monocultures of introduced species for human consumption.

Most of Australia’s arable land is already in use. If more Australians want their nutritional needs to be met by plants, our arable land will need to be even more intensely farmed. This will require a net increase in the use of fertilisers, herbicides, pesticides and other threats to biodiversity and environmental health. Or, if existing laws are changed, more native vegetation could be cleared for agriculture (an area the size of Victoria plus Tasmania would be needed to produce the additional amount of plant-based food required).

Most cattle slaughtered in Australia feed solely on pasture. This is usually rangelands, which constitute about 70% of the continent.

Grazing occurs on primarily native ecosystems. These have and maintain far higher levels of native biodiversity than croplands. The rangelands can’t be used to produce crops, so production of meat here doesn’t limit production of plant foods. Grazing is the only way humans can get substantial nutrients from 70% of the continent.

In some cases rangelands have been substantially altered to increase the percentage of stock-friendly plants. Grazing can also cause significant damage such as soil loss and erosion. But it doesn’t result in the native ecosystem “blitzkrieg” required to grow crops.

This environmental damage is causing some well-known environmentalists to question their own preconceptions. British environmental advocate George Monbiot, for example, publically converted from vegan to omnivore after reading Simon Fairlie’s expose about meat’s sustainability. And environmental activist Lierre Keith documented the awesome damage to global environments involved in producing plant foods for human consumption.

In Australia we can also meet part of our protein needs using sustainably wild-harvested kangaroo meat. Unlike introduced meat animals, they don’t damage native biodiversity. They are soft-footed, low methane-producing and have relatively low water requirements. They also produce an exceptionally healthy low-fat meat.

In Australia 70% of the beef produced for human consumption comes from animals raised on grazing lands with very little or no grain supplements. At any time, only 2% of Australia’s national herd of cattle are eating grains in feed lots; the other 98% are raised on and feeding on grass. Two-thirds of cattle slaughtered in Australia feed solely on pasture.

To produce protein from grazing beef, cattle are killed. One death delivers (on average, across Australia’s grazing lands) a carcass of about 288 kilograms. This is approximately 68% boneless meat which, at 23% protein equals 45kg of protein per animal killed. This means 2.2 animals killed for each 100kg of useable animal protein produced.

Producing protein from wheat means ploughing pasture land and planting it with seed. Anyone who has sat on a ploughing tractor knows the predatory birds that follow you all day are not there because they have nothing better to do. Ploughing and harvesting kill small mammals, snakes, lizards and other animals in vast numbers. In addition, millions of mice are poisoned in grain storage facilities every year.

However, the largest and best-researched loss of sentient life is the poisoning of mice during plagues.

Each area of grain production in Australia has a mouse plague on average every four years, with 500-1000 mice per hectare. Poisoning kills at least 80% of the mice.

At least 100 mice are killed per hectare per year (500/4 × 0.8) to grow grain. Average yields are about 1.4 tonnes of wheat/hectare; 13% of the wheat is useable protein. Therefore, at least 55 sentient animals die to produce 100kg of useable plant protein: 25 times more than for the same amount of rangelands beef.

Some of this grain is used to “finish” beef cattle in feed lots (some is food for dairy cattle, pigs and poultry), but it is still the case that many more sentient lives are sacrificed to produce useable protein from grains than from rangelands cattle.

There is a further issue to consider here: the question of sentience – the capacity to feel, perceive or be conscious.

You might not think the billions of insects and spiders killed by grain production are sentient, though they perceive and respond to the world around them. You may dismiss snakes and lizards as cold-blooded creatures incapable of sentience, though they form pair bonds and care for their young. But what about mice?

Mice are far more sentient than we thought. They sing complex, personalised love songs to each other that get more complex over time. Singing of any kind is a rare behaviour among mammals, previously known only to occur in whales, bats and humans.

Girl mice, like swooning human teenagers, try to get close to a skilled crooner. Now researchers are trying to determine whether song innovations are genetically programmed or or whether mice learn to vary their songs as they mature.

Baby mice left in the nest sing to their mothers — a kind of crying song to call them back. For every female killed by the poisons we administer, on average five to six totally dependent baby mice will, despite singing their hearts out to call their mothers back home, inevitably die of starvation, dehydration or predation.

When cattle, kangaroos and other meat animals are harvested they are killed instantly. Mice die a slow and very painful death from poisons. From a welfare point of view, these methods are among the least acceptable modes of killing. Although joeys are sometimes killed or left to fend for themselves, only 30% of kangaroos shot are females, only some of which will have young (the industry’s code of practice says shooters should avoid shooting females with dependent young). However, many times this number of dependent baby mice are left to die when we deliberately poison their mothers by the millions.

Replacing red meat with grain products leads to many more sentient animal deaths, far greater animal suffering and significantly more environmental degradation. Protein obtained from grazing livestock costs far fewer lives per kilogram: it is a more humane, ethical and environmentally-friendly dietary option.

So, what does a hungry human do? Our teeth and digestive system are adapted for omnivory. But we are now challenged to think about philosophical issues. We worry about the ethics involved in killing grazing animals and wonder if there are other more humane ways of obtaining adequate nutrients.

Relying on grains and pulses brings destruction of native ecosystems, significant threats to native species and at least 25 times more deaths of sentient animals per kilogram of food. Most of these animals sing love songs to each other, until we inhumanely mass-slaughter them.

Former Justice of the High Court, the Hon. Michael Kirby, wrote that:

“In our shared sentience, human beings are intimately connected with other animals. Endowed with reason and speech, we are uniquely empowered to make ethical decisions and to unite for social change on behalf of others that have no voice. Exploited animals cannot protest about their treatment or demand a better life. They are entirely at our mercy. So every decision of animal welfare, whether in Parliament or the supermarket, presents us with a profound test of moral character”.

We now know the mice have a voice, but we haven’t been listening.

The challenge for the ethical eater is to choose the diet that causes the least deaths and environmental damage. There would appear to be far more ethical support for an omnivorous diet that includes rangeland-grown red meat and even more support for one that includes sustainably wild-harvested kangaroo.

Thanks to many colleagues including Rosie Cooney, Peter Ampt, Grahame Webb, Bob Beale, Gordon Grigg, John Kelly, Suzanne Hand, Greg Miles, Alex Baumber, George Wilson, Peter Banks, Michael Cermak, Barry Cohen, Dan Lunney, Ernie Lundelius Jr and anonymous referees of the Australian Zoologist paper who provided helpful critiques.
I pointed out a couple of years ago that any kind of farming will lead to animals being killed in large numbers. There's a small pecan grove (a few acres) near where I live and they kill hundreds of squirrels (sometimes over a thousand) every summer. I've also seen huge numbers of rabbits trapped, and deer and birds shot on one blackberry farm. When you add poison into the mix, suddenly even factory farms don't seem quite so bad.

I realize Australian livestock is fed more on grass than American livestock, which is often fed on feed lots, but does anyone have figures for comparison?
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Re: Want to reduce animal cruelty? Eat more meat!

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Published figures suggest that, in Australia, producing wheat and other grains results in:
[*]
at least 25 times more sentient animals being killed per kilogram of useable protein
more environmental damage, and

[*]a great deal more animal cruelty than does farming red meat.
How is this possible?
There are solutions to this. Not producing wheat protein, but instead, getting protein from insects. Or even *gasp* multi-cropping in agriculture. Heaven forbid!
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Re: Want to reduce animal cruelty? Eat more meat!

Post by Junghalli »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:There are solutions to this. Not producing wheat protein, but instead, getting protein from insects.
You mean feeding insects to people?

I think this may run into consumer resistance.
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Re: Want to reduce animal cruelty? Eat more meat!

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Junghalli wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:There are solutions to this. Not producing wheat protein, but instead, getting protein from insects.
You mean feeding insects to people?

I think this may run into consumer resistance.
Only in the wast. And really, we already eat insects. Every time we eat flour we are eating insect parts. Also: It is not as if crustaceans all that different from cockroaches. They really are rather similar.

Insects are also tasty. Cricket stir fry or sauteed caterpillars YUM!
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Re: Want to reduce animal cruelty? Eat more meat!

Post by madd0ct0r »

Market them as Indonesian land shrimp. :)


Last time I checked the stats 80% of american beef was feedlot.

It's a huge cultural difference.

Also, did not know that about mice and singing. Interesting.
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Re: Want to reduce animal cruelty? Eat more meat!

Post by Plekhanov »

Elfdart wrote:I pointed out a couple of years ago that any kind of farming will lead to animals being killed in large numbers. There's a small pecan grove (a few acres) near where I live and they kill hundreds of squirrels (sometimes over a thousand) every summer. I've also seen huge numbers of rabbits trapped, and deer and birds shot on one blackberry farm. When you add poison into the mix, suddenly even factory farms don't seem quite so bad.
Only if you ignore where the feed fed to animals in factory farms comes from.
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Re: Want to reduce animal cruelty? Eat more meat!

Post by Broomstick »

This points out what has long been a pet peeve of mine in regards to "make everyone vegetarian!" arguments - the cost to animals of plant agriculture, and that not all land area is suited to farming.
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Re: Want to reduce animal cruelty? Eat more meat!

Post by Elfdart »

Plekhanov wrote:Only if you ignore where the feed fed to animals in factory farms comes from.
I guess factory farms are a double-whammy: animals killed to produce grain that is in turn fed to more animals in factory farms.
madd0ct0r wrote:Last time I checked the stats 80% of american beef was feedlot.

It's a huge cultural difference.

Also, did not know that about mice and singing. Interesting.
I know most American veal is strictly factory farmed, as is almost all poultry, but I thought most beef cattle grazed until they were fattened up on feed lots a few weeks before slaughter -at least most of the ones in Texas and Oklahoma are.
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Re: Want to reduce animal cruelty? Eat more meat!

Post by Plekhanov »

Elfdart wrote:
Plekhanov wrote:Only if you ignore where the feed fed to animals in factory farms comes from.
I guess factory farms are a double-whammy: animals killed to produce grain that is in turn fed to more animals in factory farms.
Maybe even a triple-whammy as you have to put a whole lot of fodder into an animal to get a relatively small amount of meat. iirc chickens are about as good as it gets with a fodder to meat ratio of about 2.5/1 cows a much worse at something like 7/1.

I think this is an ethical issue not because of the killing of animals per-say but because of habitat destruction & the effects that has on biodiversity. The threat to biodiversity means that every effort should be made to make our food production systems as efficient as possible. Amongst other things this means:
  • Intensive not organic farming - the low yields form organic farming mean much more land is needed
    GM crops - they have higher yields and lower use of harmful fertilizers, insecticides & weedkillers
    Minimal use of arable land to grow fodder
Clearly an optimal use of the world's resources to feed people will involve some grazing of animals on land unsuitable to grow crops. However at the moment a very substantial proportion of arable land is used to grow fodder to feed animals which will then be slaughtered for meat, that is profoundly suboptimal.
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Re: Want to reduce animal cruelty? Eat more meat!

Post by Eulogy »

Decentralizing food production would also help a lot. Gardens can take many forms and be placed just about anywhere with light, even skyscrapers can have small plots of land on balconies and rooftops. Animals that are small, grow fast and are relatively easy and safe to rear are the least hard way for those in suburbs who want to grow their own meat - chickens are indeed efficient.

Someone living in a suburb who wants their own source of milk, however, may find that having a cow or goat may be somewhat harder...
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Re: Want to reduce animal cruelty? Eat more meat!

Post by Simon_Jester »

In parts of the developed world, keeping livestock is illegal or strongly discouraged in suburbs: in the US, homeowner's associations oppose it strongly because it reduces the value of real estate in the neighborhood when white-collar workers looking for a house come by and see that the neighbor is raising chickens in the backyard.

Hopefully, attitudes on this will change. At least, I think that would be good.

When it comes to protein consumption... Rabbits, chickens, and farmed fish can eat things that humans can't- although it's harder to breed them intensively without using things like grain for chicken feed.
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Re: Want to reduce animal cruelty? Eat more meat!

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Eulogy wrote:Decentralizing food production would also help a lot. Gardens can take many forms and be placed just about anywhere with light, even skyscrapers can have small plots of land on balconies and rooftops. Animals that are small, grow fast and are relatively easy and safe to rear are the least hard way for those in suburbs who want to grow their own meat - chickens are indeed efficient.

Someone living in a suburb who wants their own source of milk, however, may find that having a cow or goat may be somewhat harder...
Goats at least take up less room and food than cows. I've got a number of neighbors who keep goats and they aren't a problem provided you have responsible owners (big if, I know). There is the cultural obstacle that some societies favor cow milk over goat. There is also the problem of possible contamination. Many of the illness that used to be borne by milk have been essentially eliminated by pasteurization. By distributing milk production to many small units, almost at the level of the individual consumer, maintaining that level of consistent sanitation and pasteurization is going to be a nightmare.

If we did grow chickens, rabbits, guinea pigs, etc. for food on distributed small scale I wonder how many folks would actually butcher and eat them. Hmm.... maybe there's a niche for a neighborhood butcher who either comes to your place, or that you take your live meat animals to....

On the upside, animal manure can be combined with kitchen vegetable/fruit waste and lawn/landscape trimmings into compost heaps, which can produce significant amounts of natural fertilizer for the distributed gardens.
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Re: Want to reduce animal cruelty? Eat more meat!

Post by LaCroix »

Broomstick wrote:Hmm.... maybe there's a niche for a neighborhood butcher who either comes to your place, or that you take your live meat animals to....
Just yesterday, I met one of those 'travelling butchers' in Hungary... They do have their place where you can bring livestock to, but also do home visits if you can't.
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Re: Want to reduce animal cruelty? Eat more meat!

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I've seen them too. It looks like a horse trailer but it's a mobile slaughterhouse. Mostly it's for hunters but they also do house calls for hog killings and the like.
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Re: Want to reduce animal cruelty? Eat more meat!

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Eulogy wrote:Decentralizing food production would also help a lot. Gardens can take many forms and be placed just about anywhere with light, even skyscrapers can have small plots of land on balconies and rooftops. Animals that are small, grow fast and are relatively easy and safe to rear are the least hard way for those in suburbs who want to grow their own meat - chickens are indeed efficient.
It's a question of the number of hungry stomachs. If it's just you, a roof-top garden and a pair of virile bunnies might give you a sufficient, though culinarily unsatisfying, supply of food. Provided you had access to the technologies of advanced synthetic fertilizers, GM stock, and environmental controls (which include shelters, water treatment, prepared soils, cheap feed, artificial lighting where necessary, etc.) you would do even better with your little plot of land, squeezing our more food per acre, though you have to have at least some money to begin with to get started at that level and you start angering hippies who want everyone to farm organically (despite the organic farming craze being, you know, fucking criminally ignorant). Except then you have to grow food for the guy in the lab, because he's too busy researching better seed stock to tend his garden. And for the guy who polices the area to make sure nobody steals your crop. You can see where this is going.

When it's your whole damn city of four million people, and some of these people don't have the time to invest in agricultural pursuits because they're too busy with their actual jobs, well, Uncle Benny's balcony tomato pot isn't going to cut it. The amount of Bad Things you have to do to fuzzy forest creatures and Mother Nature goes up with each additional mouth sharing space with you in an urban area.
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Re: Want to reduce animal cruelty? Eat more meat!

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I used to want to be a vegetarian. I went 7 years without eating red meat and I had plans on cutting down the rest of it but I have done a complete 180. Lets be realistic here. The entire universe is based on life being parasitical in one form or another. Some things eat/absorb/forage certain living things while they run away from what wants to kill/eat them. Yes the addition of consciousness and self-awareness brings in a concern of ethical bahaviour, but this is all irrelevant except for humanities unanimous consensus in the end. We are going to pick humans above all other living creatures as a rule...pets notwithstanding which will ALWAYS be given special dispensation and they are lucky critters indeed to be so desired..

Ultimately the great majority of people pushing vegetarianism are doing it out of empathy for animals and while I do share that empathy, I dismiss it as being unrealistic and pointless. We don't live in Disneyland. It's the real world, the real universe. Predator/prey is the norm. It's not even just acceptable, it's very worrisome to conceive what would happen if it was completely upset! It's a cycle. When all the wolves are shot, the deer breed out of control, and then the forest gets overeaten, and so on and so forth.. nature is a balance.

I definitely agree with the promotion of better habits of eating. The majority of western diets should be severely reduced in meat. We'd be much healthier overall. No argument there.
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Re: Want to reduce animal cruelty? Eat more meat!

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Justforfun000 wrote:I used to want to be a vegetarian. I went 7 years without eating red meat and I had plans on cutting down the rest of it but I have done a complete 180. Lets be realistic here. The entire universe is based on life being parasitical in one form or another. Some things eat/absorb/forage certain living things while they run away from what wants to kill/eat them. Yes the addition of consciousness and self-awareness brings in a concern of ethical bahaviour, but this is all irrelevant except for humanities unanimous consensus in the end. We are going to pick humans above all other living creatures as a rule...pets notwithstanding which will ALWAYS be given special dispensation and they are lucky critters indeed to be so desired..

Ultimately the great majority of people pushing vegetarianism are doing it out of empathy for animals and while I do share that empathy, I dismiss it as being unrealistic and pointless. We don't live in Disneyland. It's the real world, the real universe. Predator/prey is the norm. It's not even just acceptable, it's very worrisome to conceive what would happen if it was completely upset! It's a cycle. When all the wolves are shot, the deer breed out of control, and then the forest gets overeaten, and so on and so forth.. nature is a balance.

I definitely agree with the promotion of better habits of eating. The majority of western diets should be severely reduced in meat. We'd be much healthier overall. No argument there.
And how does this arbitrary logic not also apply, condone, and even applaud other forms of human-on-human oppression? The American south justified its enslavement of Africans on the basis of slavery being a norm and any alternative being a farcical fairy tale. The crusaders, in part, justified their slaughter of Arab populaces based on a similar view push-back against other populaces, to say nothing of the European anti-semitism that lead up to the holocaust.

This system of yours leads to an ugly place, and it's well past time that we rejected it. Especially when we are in a technological age where we can feed ourselves, more efficiently and at a healthier standard, by eschewing the consumption of animal flesh.


As to the original article, it's a false dilemma if there ever was one.

Humanity creates a massive enslaved populace, and then has an ethical tummy-ache about what it's done. Not to worry, though, freeing the slaves might cause other animals harm! So it's best that we keep on trucking on, and not try to think about why we're here in the first place. :lol:
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Re: Want to reduce animal cruelty? Eat more meat!

Post by Winston Blake »

Justforfun000 wrote:Ultimately the great majority of people pushing vegetarianism are doing it out of empathy for animals and while I do share that empathy, I dismiss it as being unrealistic and pointless. We don't live in Disneyland. It's the real world, the real universe. Predator/prey is the norm. It's not even just acceptable, it's very worrisome to conceive what would happen if it was completely upset! It's a cycle. When all the wolves are shot, the deer breed out of control, and then the forest gets overeaten, and so on and so forth.. nature is a balance.
I am not in favour of vegetarianism, but I have to note here that this is a pretty bad justification for eating meat. It's one big 'is/ought' fallacy, and reminds me of the Food Chain from the Simpsons, at 1:20 here.



If your view is that 'animals dying just doesn't really matter to me, as long as it's humane', then you can just say so.

Also I'll note that the article doesn't seem to support the thread title - it supports the idea of 'optimising meat vs grain consumption', not 'consuming more meat'. I.e. for all we know the optimum is somewhere below present levels. Frankly I am in favour of reduced consumption of meat in the Western world just because I consider it a luxury, and that people ought to learn to live with less of it. Generally speaking, grains are a cheap way of keeping a population fed, and if you're used to eating little meat you won't feel deprived if/when hard times roll around.
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Re: Want to reduce animal cruelty? Eat more meat!

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And how does this arbitrary logic not also apply, condone, and even applaud other forms of human-on-human oppression?
I still feel all humans deserve equal freedom from each others supper plate by mutual golden rule. I feel extreme distate and revulsion to the idea of eating a fellow human being and I would encourage speciesism in practice, (not necessarily out of superiority though, just self-interest), and the shared acceptance of that being an absolute given limit. It's just how I feel about it at the heart of the matter. I wasn't putting it forth as a perfect argument.
If your view is that 'animals dying just doesn't really matter to me, as long as it's humane', then you can just say so.
This is also an excellent summation of my POV.

(Edited for spelling and clarity)
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Re: Want to reduce animal cruelty? Eat more meat!

Post by Akhlut »

Straha wrote:And how does this arbitrary logic not also apply, condone, and even applaud other forms of human-on-human oppression? The American south justified its enslavement of Africans on the basis of slavery being a norm and any alternative being a farcical fairy tale. The crusaders, in part, justified their slaughter of Arab populaces based on a similar view push-back against other populaces, to say nothing of the European anti-semitism that lead up to the holocaust.
One can exclude non-human animals while including humans. It can even be logically consistent, if one uses definitions that include humans and exclude other animals. If one assigns moral values to humans solely because of their humanity, then it can still be logically consistent, by virtue of starting with different terms for the argument.
Especially when we are in a technological age where we can feed ourselves, more efficiently and at a healthier standard, by eschewing the consumption of animal flesh.
It's not necessarily true that a diet including meat is unhealthier than one excluding meat; Eskimos and Inuit peoples ate almost exclusively meat diets and tended to be fairly healthy (until industrial pollution contaminated their meat supplies with such toxins as PCBs, VOCs, and other nasty shit that condenses out of the atmosphere in the colder arctic conditions they live in). While one can point to a number of reasons why meat-eating should be reduced/eliminated, health shouldn't be one of them. One can just as easily become a fatass with cardiovascular disease on a vegan diet (potato chips deep-fried in hydrogenated soy oil) as on a meat-based one.

Humanity creates a massive enslaved populace, and then has an ethical tummy-ache about what it's done. Not to worry, though, freeing the slaves might cause other animals harm! So it's best that we keep on trucking on, and not try to think about why we're here in the first place. :lol:
Well, what's the end goal? Minimizing suffering, preventing environmental problems, or what? The solutions are not going to be the same for each.

There's also the matter that in order to enforce some of these propositions, there will inevitably be the destruction of cultural values extending back in time for hundreds, if not thousands of years. The Saami, Inuit, Eskimo, Chukchi, Mongolian, and numerous other people will have to be forcibly relocated in most instances (can't grow wheat above the arctic circle or around the Altai mountains without severe problems; reindeer herds would have to be released/culled; etc.) and have their traditional cultures completely obliterated.

There's also the fact that one could simply raise ungulates in a more sane fashion to eliminate most of the ecological problems. After all, the US currently has about 90 million head of cattle, but it used to host some 60 million bison and another ~100 million pronghorn. They made a ton of methane too, but it didn't seem to be a problem. So, from an ecological standpoint, we'd probably be much, much better off rewilding a large portion of the world's savannas with natural grasslands and ungulates and harvesting them in a manner similar to the way the semi-wild herds of bison are farmed in the US these days, while letting the wolves, bears, and big cats of those regions shepherd them around to help keep a more natural ecosystem in place.

This also helps with several other problems: one, habitat-destruction is obviously severely reduced; two, areas that are unsuitable for long-term, intensive farming don't artificially boost human populations and then can no longer sustain them; three, studies show that eating grass-fed meat is healthy (decreases LDL in blood serum, has a lot of omega-3 acids, etc.), and most wild/semi-wild ungulates would eat almost exclusively grass and browse in this scenario.

But, hell, even if we did it with just regular livestock instead of wild ungulates, it'd still be a hell of a sight better on the environment.
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Re: Want to reduce animal cruelty? Eat more meat!

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One can exclude non-human animals while including humans. It can even be logically consistent, if one uses definitions that include humans and exclude other animals. If one assigns moral values to humans solely because of their humanity, then it can still be logically consistent, by virtue of starting with different terms for the argument.
It is also a tautology.
They made a ton of methane too, but it didn't seem to be a problem. So, from an ecological standpoint, we'd probably be much, much better off rewilding a large portion of the world's savannas with natural grasslands and ungulates and harvesting them in a manner similar to the way the semi-wild herds of bison are farmed in the US these days, while letting the wolves, bears, and big cats of those regions shepherd them around to help keep a more natural ecosystem in place.
Yes. Rewilding actually is a good solution to that particular problem. As are things like dual cropping water-loving grains like rice with crayfish and other economically important species. Sequence:

Plant your rice and flood the field. Crayfish come up out of the burrows and eat many of the pest species that eat and compete with rice. They dont impact the rice crop much though. You can even feed them, and their waste (ammonia) will fertilize the rice. You can set up crayfish traps to harvest said crayfish during this process. Done. You can also use the land around your field as a large natural wetland buffer (basically, your rice field is an impoundment inside a natural seasonal floodplain, and you provide/preserve habitat for native species. If you use GM rice, congrats. You have rice with high nutrient content, and have high input levels of efficiency without many of the negative ecological consequences.
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Re: Want to reduce animal cruelty? Eat more meat!

Post by Akhlut »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
One can exclude non-human animals while including humans. It can even be logically consistent, if one uses definitions that include humans and exclude other animals. If one assigns moral values to humans solely because of their humanity, then it can still be logically consistent, by virtue of starting with different terms for the argument.
It is also a tautology.
Yeah, but it's not logically inconsistent, necessarily.
They made a ton of methane too, but it didn't seem to be a problem. So, from an ecological standpoint, we'd probably be much, much better off rewilding a large portion of the world's savannas with natural grasslands and ungulates and harvesting them in a manner similar to the way the semi-wild herds of bison are farmed in the US these days, while letting the wolves, bears, and big cats of those regions shepherd them around to help keep a more natural ecosystem in place.
Yes. Rewilding actually is a good solution to that particular problem. As are things like dual cropping water-loving grains like rice with crayfish and other economically important species. Sequence:

Plant your rice and flood the field. Crayfish come up out of the burrows and eat many of the pest species that eat and compete with rice. They dont impact the rice crop much though. You can even feed them, and their waste (ammonia) will fertilize the rice. You can set up crayfish traps to harvest said crayfish during this process. Done. You can also use the land around your field as a large natural wetland buffer (basically, your rice field is an impoundment inside a natural seasonal floodplain, and you provide/preserve habitat for native species. If you use GM rice, congrats. You have rice with high nutrient content, and have high input levels of efficiency without many of the negative ecological consequences.
Additionally, for use in relatively wet areas that are suburbanized/urbanized, there is aquaponics, a system of using water from growing freshwater animals to water plants.
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Re: Want to reduce animal cruelty? Eat more meat!

Post by Straha »

Justforfun000 wrote:I still feel all humans deserve equal freedom from each others supper plate by mutual golden rule. I feel extreme distate and revulsion to the idea of eating a fellow human being and I would encourage speciesism in practice, (not necessarily out of superiority though, just self-interest), and the shared acceptance of that being an absolute given limit. It's just how I feel about it at the heart of the matter. I wasn't putting it forth as a perfect argument.
I'm not simply talking about eating practices. I'm saying your ethical framing of why certain populaces matter, and which populaces are legitimate targets for oppression by dominant groups, is morally bankrupt and justifies all sorts of other heinous versions of oppression.

Akhlut wrote: One can exclude non-human animals while including humans. It can even be logically consistent, if one uses definitions that include humans and exclude other animals. If one assigns moral values to humans solely because of their humanity, then it can still be logically consistent, by virtue of starting with different terms for the argument.
Yes, but any exclusion in this way begins at an arbitrary starting point. Unless you can justify special reasons why humans should be included over other groups (and you can't), then you can just as easily apply this same exclusion to any random human populace.

There's a thread about consequentialism from a couple months back where I fleshed this out in depth. I'd recommend looking there before we continue this conversation so you have a better conceptualization of where I'm coming from and what kind of morality I'm arguing in favor of.
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Re: Want to reduce animal cruelty? Eat more meat!

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Straha wrote:There's a thread about consequentialism from a couple months back where I fleshed this out in depth. I'd recommend looking there before we continue this conversation so you have a better conceptualization of where I'm coming from and what kind of morality I'm arguing in favor of.
Having read through that a bit, while I appreciate your arguments, I'm not sure they necessarily hold water; after all, the Hindu states of India operated on an ethic of respecting all life, but were willing to make up all sorts of exclusionary principles allowing for the oppression and subjugation of the Dalit while simultaneously revering cattle and preventing any harm to come to them. Contrariwise, if we look at the Sikhs, though they exclude animals enough from their ethical perspective to slaughter and eat them, they also are much more egalitarian and much more committed to social justice.

Additionally, of the many atrocities committed through history, aside from the ones done in modern Communist nations, how many were done in a utilitarian/consequentialist ethical framework? The genocide against Native Americans was done as a result of mainly Medieval Christian theology, while the Holocaust was a quasi-religious crusade. One can't fault utilitarian ethics for the failures of other philosophies.

Also: I'll just note here that I wasn't personally subscribing to the idea that I mentioned in my other post, just saying that it isn't logically inconsistent to separate people from animals, though it does require adhering to generally religious principles about the superiority of humans (I didn't mention that second part, but, hey, it is an argument that one can make and that a lot of people do make).
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Re: Want to reduce animal cruelty? Eat more meat!

Post by Justforfun000 »

I'm not simply talking about eating practices. I'm saying your ethical framing of why certain populaces matter, and which populaces are legitimate targets for oppression by dominant groups, is morally bankrupt and justifies all sorts of other heinous versions of oppression.
Bullshit! I don't need morals to deal with animals. Do they have an "ethical framework" regarding me? Are they going to equally be concerned for my welfare? Consciously choose to live side by side and share resources in a way that is equal to all concerned? Of course not! Only humans can and DO make those types of policy decisions and we do so only in regard to other humans UNLESS said animals are adopted into our personal family or we are being generous and allowing it.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with me picking my species and our needs above all other animals first and foremost. Are you seriously suggesting we should do otherwise?
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