Europe, too, is sitting on a giant supervolcano...

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Europe, too, is sitting on a giant supervolcano...

Post by PeZook »

Daily Mail wrote:Two thousand years ago Mount Vesuvius destroyed Pompeii. Today, a larger, far more deadly supervolcano lurks on the other side of Naples. If it erupts, Campi Flegrei could wipe out all life in Europe. So why are British scientists battling the Italians for the right to poke at it with drilling rods?
Map of Naples

The Campi Flegrei caldera is a supervolcano. While a new eruption here would be more likely to result in the creation of another Vesuvius-like cone, the worst-case scenario could see it obliterating much of life in Europe

NAPLES, ITALY, THE NEAR FUTURE

It begins with a swarm of 1,000 small earthquakes that ripple under the pavements of Naples. Air-conditioning units fall from the sides of buildings and tiles slip from the walls. Inside the National Institute of Geophysics and Volcanology’s control centre, a bank of screens indicates that the quakes aren’t being generated by the giant Mount Vesuvius, which looms over the city.

These quakes are coming from something far bigger, from one of the largest and most dangerous volcanoes in the world: the Campi Flegrei caldera. Vesuvius, which destroyed the Roman city of Pompeii, incinerating and suffocating thousands, is nothing more than a pimple on the back of the sleeping dragon of Campi Flegrei, an active four-mile-wide sunken volcano. A call is quickly put through to Civil Defence and the Italian Ministry of the Interior: the city must be evacuated immediately.

A short distance away, the ground around the ancient town of Pozzuoli is stretching, swelling, doming. Fumaroles – vents emitting columns of steam rich in CO2 – open up in the broken Tarmac. Four-and-a-half miles below the surface a bolt of magma has escaped the main reservoir and is rising upwards, changing and solidifying. As it reaches groundwater, it’s converted into a sponge-like stone. As the water boils away it feeds critical amounts of gas into the sponge, and the pressure builds until finally it explodes like a malfunctioning boiler.
The view across the Gulf of Pozzuoli

The view across the Gulf of Pozzuoli - much of the Camp Flegrei supervolcano lies beneath the sea here

Hundreds of billions of cubic feet of volcanic rock blasts up into the atmosphere: an explosion 200 times greater than that of the Icelandic Eyjafjallajökull volcano, which brought chaos to Europe, grounded planes in the UK for a week and is said to have cost the world economy in excess of £3 billion.

Back on the streets of Naples, it’s too late to run. Bumper-to-bumper traffic comes to a halt as drivers grind on their horns. They watch helplessly as a boiling black cloud of hot gas and rock rolls over the horizon at hurricane speed, suffocating everything in its path. In this area inhabited by millions, built in one of the most dangerous volcanic regions on earth, all life is over.
Italy map

The Campi Flegrei caldera is a supervolcano. Although there’s no picture-postcard volcanic cone, hidden beneath the seemingly placid landscape lies a volcano of immense power. While a new eruption here would be more likely to result in the creation of another Vesuvius-like cone, the worst-case scenario could see it obliterating much of life in Europe.

In this eventuality the Earth’s surface would swell and crack and a series of small eruptions would cause the four-mile-wide caldera floor to collapse into the larger magma reservoir, which would in turn push more magma to the surface.

The last time the ground gave way like this, 39,000 years ago when the caldera was formed, it created the cliffs that the postcard town of Sorrento stands on now – volcanic deposits over 300ft deep. If the same kind of eruption happened today, this part of Italy could cease to exist, and the ash clouds would blot out the Sun and lower the Earth’s temperature. Life in the UK as we know it would end. We would lose our livestock, crops and three-quarters of our plant species, plunging us into a new dark age of rioting, starvation and perpetual winter.

Now an international team, including scientists from the UK, wants to drill down inside the caldera to try to better understand exactly why part of it has risen 10ft since 1969. The area at the epicentre of the swelling has seen whole streets of houses crumble and collapse. The threat is imminent. The last time the ground rose like this (between 1430 and 1538) there was an eruption that caused the formation of a new volcano.
Geophysicist Renato Somma at an abandoned building destroyed by sulphurous deposits from the caldera

Geophysicist Renato Somma at an abandoned building destroyed by sulphurous deposits from the caldera

Key to the operation is British volcanologist Chris Kilburn, from University College London, who lived in Naples for 20 years. He’s part of a long tradition of UK volcanology, which stretches back to the grand tour of the 18th century, when Sir William Hamilton provided some of the first scientific observations of Vesuvius. The UCL group are now world leaders in rock physics – especially in understanding how the Earth’s crust deforms and breaks – which makes Kilburn a vital member of the drilling team.

‘Right now we may well be in another period of uplift,’ he says. ‘If it occurs as before, we might expect another 60 years’ worth of unrest, and possible earthquakes and eruptions, with two or three more episodes and uplift to occur in the next ten years. We have to presume we have a few more decades of unrest, and if this is going to be the case, then we have to get more data about the volcano now.’

Kilburn and the other scientists’ work may well be crucial if the people of Naples – and the rest of Europe – are to avoid another Pompeii scenario. Yet despite the urgency, the mayor of Naples has just dramatically halted the project. Drilling was to begin this month on the site of the old Bagnoli steel mill, on the eastern part of the caldera, but was stopped following the very public objections of a sole local scientist, who has warned that the drilling itself could actually trigger an explosion that could destroy the city.

The people of Naples seem to be damned if they do and damned if they don’t, but is it really possible that one simple drill hole could cause an eruption that could end life as we know it in Europe?

Renato Somma, of the National Institute of Geophysics and Volcanology in Naples, pushes the Fiat through the gears as we wind our way through the grounds of a hotel and health club built on the side of the Solfatara crater. Once fashionable, the hotel was used by U.S. Naval officers until a rise in the ground of 6ft led to an earthquake that damaged the base, and saw the U.S. Navy relocate 20 miles away from Naples.

The road runs out, and Somma stops the car beside an abandoned earthquake-damaged building. To our right the hill continues upwards. To our left is a five-a-side football pitch and the valley below. The only curious thing is the colossal plume of steam energetically billowing upwards from behind the pitch. We walk alongside the ground and duck under a loose section of wire fence, watching the steam as it swirls in the wind.

Suddenly the Tarmac ends and yellow and white volcanic stone cracks underfoot like stale bread. A few steps further and we hit a wall of sulphur, which rolls over us in invisible waves, collecting in our throats and turning our stomachs.

Where once there was green hillside there’s now an atrophic scar of sponge-like volcanic rock. At the lowest point of the scar gurgles an inhospitable pool of boiling muddy water, where bubbles of gas rise to the surface and pop like blisters. Somewhere below, magma and water are meeting and making CO2, which filters through the sponge and prevents any kind of plant or animal life from living here.

I tell Somma I’m disappointed there’s no lava: you see a volcano, you want lava – it’s like a Martini without the olive. He laughs.

‘This is even more dangerous than the lava flow,’ he says. ‘Below here we have a risk of hydromagmatic eruption – when the magma and water meet you have a more explosive pressure than with magma alone.’
Rocks from the caldera

Theoretically, if Campi Flegrei explodes, much of the vibrant metropolis of Naples could look like this one day. Somma points out that the site is well monitored, the data fed back to the institute’s control centre in Naples. Infrared cameras surround the larger Solfatara crater behind us, while gauges measure the levels of CO2. If these shoot up, and the seismic monitors are detecting earthquake swarms, it’s probably time to start thinking about putting the kids in the car.

‘OK,’ says Somma, ‘you’ve seen this; now you’ll see what the locals call the monster. You have to see the monster before you go to the control room!’

We trek back to the earthquake-damaged building beside the car. It turns out to be an abandoned indoor swimming pool. Somma is excited: ‘Since the earthquake the monster has grown inside the house!’

He’s right. There is a monster. It’s as if hell has crept up through the foundations, pushing aside heavy stone floor tiles, bleeding through holes in the walls. Urchins of luminous green sulphur, muted moss-coloured sponges and blooms of red, green and cobalt blue are digesting the building. The sulphurous steam pouring from the hot rock below has deposited a mineral coral and left the air inside dead and sauna-like. Sparrows, which came in here to roost, lie dead on the ground from CO2 poisoning.

Control room, National Institute of Geophysics and Volcanology, Naples

Giuseppe De Natale, the softly spoken volcanologist leading the drilling project, walks along the bank of 60 LCD screens and explains that each one displays a feed from sensors around Campi Flegrei and beyond.

Tidal gauges measure the true level of the seabed in the Golfo di Pozzuoli; seismographs measure the heartbeats of the volcanoes, picking up any quakes. The line on one of the monitors trembles up and down; these are relatively shallow quakes. If a serious seismic event were to occur, it would be De Natale’s job to crunch the data and advise the Italian Ministry of the Interior on whether to evacuate the city.

Should the people here be worried?

‘There is always a possibility of further eruptions in our lifetime,’ says De Natale.

‘The problem is that Neapolitan people are conscious of Vesuvius, but few of those who live in this area know about the caldera, or that all of this land is volcanic. Vesuvius is small compared to the caldera, and in my opinion the caldera presents a greater risk. Vesuvius is surrounded by a lot of people, but has nowhere near the population density of Naples.’
The monitoring activity at the National Institute of Geophysics and Volcanology

The monitoring activity at the National Institute of Geophysics and Volcanology

De Natale’s plan is to drill to a depth of two-and-a-half miles using a team from the International Continental Scientific Drilling Programme (ICDP) and their InnovaRig, a state-of-the-art semi-automatic modular rig that can switch drill heads mid-flow to read temperatures and take core samples and gas readings, before switching back to a plain old rotary drill head to continue the job of boring down through rock. Drilling no deeper than two-and-a-half miles will put the drill head around two miles above the magma reservoir.

This far down, the rock is no longer heated by water (which doesn’t exist as a liquid at this depth), but solely by the magma. Measuring the rock’s residual temperature will therefore give the scientists a better idea of the depth and size of the vast magma reservoir below.

De Natale explains that there are four major benefits to drilling, all of which will help the people of Naples avoid a similar fate to that of the unfortunate people of Pompeii.
Monitoring activity at the National Institute of Geophysics and Volcanology

Monitoring activity

First, it will greatly improve scientists’ knowledge of what has happened here in the past, and of the eruptive history of the caldera. Second, they hope it will help them to solve the riddle of what has caused the doming and uplift around Pozzuoli – is it pressure from magma and water, or is it expanding rock?

Third, by drilling down they will be able to measure the temperature of this expanding rock and place sensors to obtain a three-dimensional view of the Earth’s crust.

Finally, it will enable them to remove samples of the rock for testing at a state-of-the-art UK facility. If the doming begins again in earnest they will need to know more about the properties of this rock and how it might behave under different kinds of stress: cracking or subsidence can lead to eruptions.

Soil and rock samples will be flown to University College London, where Chris Kilburn will go to work providing data for new computer models that will recreate the conditions in which the caldera was formed, and should help to predict eruptions.

‘Calderas have the potential for large-volume eruptions, so it’s convenient that we understand the relationship between the caldera, the magma and the crust in between,’ he says.

‘Campi Flegrei is also flat. And most of the eruptions occur somewhere within a four-mile area. You don’t know if it’s going to be the left side, the right side, the north or the south.

‘Short-term precursors, like swarms of seismicity or deformations in the crust, may only happen a few days before the eruption, and even then we can’t tell whereabouts the eruption is going to occur. This is why dealing with a caldera is one level of complication greater than dealing with a volcano, where the cone is above ground, simply because we have much less of an idea where the magma is likely to come out.’

The only thing standing between the 25-strong team of scientists from the ICDP and the pilot hole they need to drill are the complaints of a solitary scientist, geochemist Benedetto De Vivo. Though his arguments aren’t well supported by the wider scientific community, De Vivo maintains that even a 1,700ft-deep pilot hole could wipe out Naples, and his fears of catastrophe have been widely publicised in the Italian press. Fearing a public backlash, the mayor of Naples has delayed the start of drilling on the site in Bagnoli pending further technical reports.

I ask De Vivo if he really thinks the drilling would cause an eruption. ‘The drilling could cause an explosion – not an eruption – caused by the supercritical fluids, and could trigger small-magnitude earthquakes. This has already happened in other similar projects in other parts of the world.’

‘Drilling triggered an eruption of a mud volcano, Lusi, in Indonesia,’ says Dr Dougal Jerram of Durham University. ‘It was very similar to what happened in the Gulf of Mexico – over-pressurised material was drilled through, which caused an eruption of that material at the surface. It was hot mud and water, which is a different kind of thing. The difference is that if you drill into molten rock, it doesn’t necessarily come to the surface.

‘If you look at Eyjafjallajökull in Iceland, they have GPS instruments recording all around the volcano. Prior to the eruption those instruments moved specifically to suggest swelling in the shallow parts of the crust – which was this magma getting close to the surface, building up – and it erupted some time later. Obviously in examples like Campi Flegrei, prior to an eruption of a moderate size, you would see signals on the ground to indicate a kind of swelling.

‘In the recent past Campi Flegrei has had periods of subsidence and bulging – would you go and drill very close to it or drill into it? Probably not. But if the system is very stable, like at the Solfatara, it’s quite clear that it’s actively de-gassing. You’ve got fumaroles at the surface and you have pressure being released. If you release the pressure in a carbonated drinks bottle, when you shake it up and try and get it to explode again, it doesn’t do so quite as violently.’
Which supervolcano will be next to blow?

Uli Harms, head of scientific drilling at the ICDP in Potsdam, helped design the state-of-the-art drill that would be used for the second stage of drilling in Bagnoli. Harms once drilled into an unexpected pocket of magma during a project in Iceland in 2009. Far from creating a new volcano, the magma simply came into contact with the drill mud and turned into glass. He says that magma will no more run up a drill hole than water will run up a straw when you place it in a glass of water.

‘The hole has a tiny diameter, and is pressurised with a kind of mud that lubricates the drill head. It is not an open hole, nor can it be widened to make a volcanic conduit or something like that.

‘But people have to be clear that the risk in Naples is not the drilling; the real risks are the two volcanoes themselves, Vesuvius and the caldera. They really do pose much more danger.’

De Natale is adamant that now we have the technology to help us understand volcano activity, we should use it: the drilling should go ahead.

‘I live in Naples myself,’ he says, ‘and like most people here could not imagine having to abandon this land. But we have to be aware of the danger lurking beneath our feet.’

The people of Pompeii never had that luxury.
So, North America and Europe are apparently sitting on stupendously gigantic time bombs.

Can anyone say again why we shouldn't bother with manned spaceflight? :P
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Re: Europe, too, is sitting on a giant supervolcano...

Post by KhorneFlakes »

Nuke it into oblivion. It can't erupt if it no longer exists.

And yes, while I admit that it's a stupid idea, it seems to be the only way that if it gets close to erupting that we might save millions more, although all the radiation is going to be a problem. (understatement)
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Re: Europe, too, is sitting on a giant supervolcano...

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

KhorneFlakes wrote:Nuke it into oblivion. It can't erupt if it no longer exists.

And yes, while I admit that it's a stupid idea, it seems to be the only way that if it gets close to erupting that we might save millions more, although all the radiation is going to be a problem. (understatement)
:wtf:

I'm pretty sure nuclear weapons would not do anything to prevent a super volcano.
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Re: Europe, too, is sitting on a giant supervolcano...

Post by KhorneFlakes »

I was talking out of my ass. Use all the nuclear stockpiles in the world to blow it up until it's molten crater. We probably have at least a few gigatons total of nuclear firepower. I doubt it do anything but trigger mass earthquakes. That's why I said it's a stupid idea.
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Re: Europe, too, is sitting on a giant supervolcano...

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
KhorneFlakes wrote:Nuke it into oblivion. It can't erupt if it no longer exists.

And yes, while I admit that it's a stupid idea, it seems to be the only way that if it gets close to erupting that we might save millions more, although all the radiation is going to be a problem. (understatement)
:wtf:

I'm pretty sure nuclear weapons would not do anything to prevent a super volcano.
You are in fact correct.

Just so you know. The last yellowstone eruption had an explosive yield of a approximately 1 teraton. This one last exploded with about a gigaton.

You cant stop that. Bit with nukes.
I was talking out of my ass. Use all the nuclear stockpiles in the world to blow it up until it's molten crater. We probably have at least a few gigatons total of nuclear firepower. I doubt it do anything but trigger mass earthquakes. That's why I said it's a stupid idea.
It is already a molten crater you idiot. All you will do is make it worse. It would take 13 gigatons released simultaneously with 100% efficiency right into solid bed rock to even get down to the god damn magma chamber. All you will do is trigger the eruption. Oh, and this time with Nukes right before. So you have a mega eruption, made worse with 13 gigatons of nuke, and the collapse of the caldera leading to a megatsunami that wipes out north africa and a good chunk of spain and france. Not to mention Sicily, Malta... yeah. No.
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Re: Europe, too, is sitting on a giant supervolcano...

Post by DudeGuyMan »

Guys I have this giant cyst on my ass that I don't wanna have break open, so I'm gonna sit on a firecracker and blow it up. Good idea yes/no?
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Re: Europe, too, is sitting on a giant supervolcano...

Post by Terralthra »

If anything, the forces involved are reversed. "Hey, guys, I'm sitting on ten sticks of dynamite with a timer whose length I have no idea. I know, I'll set the timer on fire and maybe that will make it so the dynamite doesn't go off!"

At best, you'll burn yourself. At worst, you'll set off the explosive.
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Re: Europe, too, is sitting on a giant supervolcano...

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

DudeGuyMan wrote:Guys I have this giant cyst on my ass that I don't wanna have break open, so I'm gonna sit on a firecracker and blow it up. Good idea yes/no?
Better ask Beastman and Skeletor first. :lol:
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Re: Europe, too, is sitting on a giant supervolcano...

Post by El Moose Monstero »

It is actually an interesting question of what the difference in eruption would be if you actively tried to set it off now versus waiting for it to go off in the future.

You'd presumably need to drill down to put a substantial nuke somewhere it can carve a huge cavity. Maybe if you drilled deep enough, when you set off the nuke, it could scour out a hole from the magma chamber ceiling and depressurise the chamber that way, but that might not necessarily lead to an eruption as the pressure could still keep the magma from fragmenting. Or if it did, it might be constrained by the melt cavity walls and not immediately go any higher. But I imagine that all the stresses you put on the surrounding rock would make the area so weak that shallower magma would percolate upwards and lead to volcanism over a much wider area.

I'm totally talking out of my ass though, not a rock physics person or a nuke person - between them, Shep and CaptainChewbacca might be able to give a better educated idea, but it bears mentioning that although the idea of nuking a volcano until it glows as a solution is crazy, it does raise some interesting technical questions about what would actually happen.
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Re: Europe, too, is sitting on a giant supervolcano...

Post by Irbis »

Kamakazie Sith wrote::wtf:

I'm pretty sure nuclear weapons would not do anything to prevent a super volcano.
Nononono. We have to think of something that would work, then! :twisted:

What if we used... Say, 10x worth of current nuclear bomb stockpiles to vaporize part of the magma to safely vent it away reducing pressure in the chamber? :P
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Re: Europe, too, is sitting on a giant supervolcano...

Post by El Moose Monstero »

Vent it to where? By definition, if you've made a vent, you've essentially opened a chimney at atmospheric pressure into a magma chamber at 100 or so MPa. Normally, silicic magma will rise towards the surface up a volcanic conduit and only fragment in the last kilometer or so, and fluid magma in the last 10's-100's metres when internal pressure from constrained gas exceeds surrounding pressure. If you opened a clear chimney, presumably several hundred metres wide, to the magma chamber, you're effectively providing a fast escape route for magma, and the first thing to come out will be a radioactive jet of gases and magma fragments.

Personally, I think the more interesting question is whether if you managed to make a load of subsurface cavities with bombs that did not breach the surface, whether the depressurisation of the magma chamber and ascent of magma into the cavities would negate the catastrophic explosive eruption building up and *merely* create a large region of multiple very active volcanic vents prone to smaller scale eruptions fed by multiple shallow 'micro' chambers, or simply lead to a giant eruption from the get go.
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Re: Europe, too, is sitting on a giant supervolcano...

Post by madd0ct0r »

If we want to ensure it dosen't go off, we have to stop it building pressure. In this case the fear seems to be magma meeting water in the rock and turning it into steam, causing a huge spike in pressure.

So we need to remove the magma, the water or the heat. Nukes will not do that, silly people.

1) Remove the magma. - Hmm, since there's an active volcano next door, induce a 'controlled' eruption there with the lava diverted into the sea. Were there not a city there, I'd suggest aiming it at the caldera to fill it up with a nice heavy cap. Or do the same via sea bed drilling + large amount of explosives. The relief will only be temporary, so not much of an option, unless you want it to be a continuous operation. Operation Raising Atlantis perhaps?

2) Remove the water. Much more feasible. Deep wells and pumps artificially lowering the ground water level for miles around. Say goodbye to your aquifers and local ecology. It will also be impossible to take all of the water so risk of steam explosion will still be present.

3) Remove the heat. Deep water wells, with high pressure stainless pipes running down through them. Use molten salt instead of water if you can get the tempreture high enough. Classic Geothermal electricity. Use the steam produced for electricity generation or high energy industry like aluminum smelting. Could be good for the regions economy. Reasonably green tech too.
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Re: Europe, too, is sitting on a giant supervolcano...

Post by El Moose Monstero »

I'm irritated with myself for not reading this a bit more critically, to be quite honest.

What we've got here is two stories - one is that there is a rising magma body coming up from the magma chamber, which is likely to lead to a new cone, and the second is about the drilling and the concerns of a non-eruptive explosion pertaining to the gas and fluid phases which may exist within the rock overlying the magma chamber.

The current activity is not going to lead to a supervolcanic eruption, the idea has just been dropped into the story as a selling point. Campi Flegrei is a supervolcano, but nowhere is anyone actually quoted as saying that the current potential activity is going in that direction, and given that it is a Daily Mail article, I think we can all rest easy tonight. The concerns over a smaller phreatomagmatic eruption are legitimate, but that would just impact on Italy without the attendant catastrophism of a caldera forming eruption.

Maddoctor, at face value, none of those ideas are going to be feasible and would be akin to Canute trying to hold back the sea.

1) If we knew how to create a 'controlled eruption', as I think that would imply a level of understanding and engineering way beyond anything we have now, we wouldn't be worrying. Also, the magma chamber is going to be huge - the first supereruption there put out on the order of 100km3 magma. Even if we could magically remove it, which would also collapse the caldera, it would have to go somewhere and it would have to degas, so we'd be putting a shit load of lava down and a shit load of volatiles into either the Med or the atmosphere.

2) Removing the water might negate the problems for the phreatomagmatic eruption, providing you can draw the water table below the fragmentation level of the magma, but doesn't solve the problem of a regular plinian eruption or anything large. But I don't know anything about hydrology - is it feasible to drop a water table to 1-2 km below the surface?

3) Good luck removing the heat from something containing several hundred km3 of magma. Also, see concerns over inserting things into magma chambers.
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Re: Europe, too, is sitting on a giant supervolcano...

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

1) Remove the magma. - Hmm, since there's an active volcano next door, induce a 'controlled' eruption there with the lava diverted into the sea. Were there not a city there, I'd suggest aiming it at the caldera to fill it up with a nice heavy cap. Or do the same via sea bed drilling + large amount of explosives. The relief will only be temporary, so not much of an option, unless you want it to be a continuous operation. Operation Raising Atlantis perhaps?
That is not how cindercone volcanoes work...

Vesuvias is the sort of volcano that likes to explode in a Plinian eruption. The magma is very viscous and has a lot of dissolved gases. You dont get lava flows (and if you do, it is more... interesting...). You get a column of superheated gases and rock vaulted into the atmosphere that then collapses in on itself creating massive pyrocastic flows. Think of i like an avalanche, only in reverse in terms of temperature. It is... bad. Really really bad.
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Re: Europe, too, is sitting on a giant supervolcano...

Post by Sky Captain »

El Moose Monstero wrote:
3) Good luck removing the heat from something containing several hundred km3 of magma. Also, see concerns over inserting things into magma chambers.
A geothermal energy project still could be useful there since from the description it sounds the whole caldera is ideal for geothermal energy extraction. Suppose a massive project pulling out continously some 5 - 10 GW of heat. It might not do much in short term but during a period of some 70 - 100 years there should be some effect on the magma chamber.
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Re: Europe, too, is sitting on a giant supervolcano...

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Sky Captain wrote:
El Moose Monstero wrote:
3) Good luck removing the heat from something containing several hundred km3 of magma. Also, see concerns over inserting things into magma chambers.
A geothermal energy project still could be useful there since from the description it sounds the whole caldera is ideal for geothermal energy extraction. Suppose a massive project pulling out continously some 5 - 10 GW of heat. It might not do much in short term but during a period of some 70 - 100 years there should be some effect on the magma chamber.
No. No it will not. Why, you ask? Because the magma chamber is not a closed system. All a geothermal power source can do is take some of the energy radiating out from the magma chamber--something that is already happening, and you cannot make that happen much faster. You are not pulling heat from a geothermal power source. You are passively collecting what is already leaving. You fail basic thermodynamics.
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Re: Europe, too, is sitting on a giant supervolcano...

Post by El Moose Monstero »

Even if you could cool the magma chamber, dropping temperature by a few degrees or even a few tens of degrees, would not decrease the eruptability of the system, and could even increase the risk - cooler magma, if already hot (I think the composition is phonolite, probably 800-900C) is going to crystallise and become more viscous, resisting gas release and building up internal pressure (up to a point). But as Alyrium says, you're not going to be doing that - the system has been sitting there for hundreds of thousands of years and is many km long, wide and deep, periodically resupplied (I assume) from magma from below. Boiling some water in the rocks above will have no effect on the heat budget of the magma chamber.
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Re: Europe, too, is sitting on a giant supervolcano...

Post by Sky Captain »

Anyway, even if it is impossible to significantly cool the magma chamber it still would be a good place to build large geothermal energy project.
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Re: Europe, too, is sitting on a giant supervolcano...

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Shroom Man 777 wrote:
DudeGuyMan wrote:Guys I have this giant cyst on my ass that I don't wanna have break open, so I'm gonna sit on a firecracker and blow it up. Good idea yes/no?
Better ask Beastman and Skeletor first. :lol:
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Re: Europe, too, is sitting on a giant supervolcano...

Post by madd0ct0r »

damn. I forgot the volcanic gases.

They're currently already venting though, and it may not be possible to suck them out quicker without bringing hot stuff along with them. They are key either way, and certain types could well be 'mined' for the elements produced.

The geothermal stuff I was thinking more along the lines of wells dug down to where the rock is merely hot, not soft. By constantly pumping heat out of it you could maintain a steep temperature gradient letting you remove it as quickly as possible. This is limited by the thickness of the rock and it's conductibility. and how much heat would we have to move?

GIGATONS!

(jk) But we're not trying to freeze the entire system, just keep it bubbling with out boiling over. I just can't think of anything to use that heat for that's more useful then aluminum and electricity.
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Re: Europe, too, is sitting on a giant supervolcano...

Post by El Moose Monstero »

Comparatively small amounts are venting, from volatiles that are percolating up. A lot of the gas, depending on melt viscosity, will be retained as bubbles within the magma and will only be released when the magma fragments. There may be a fraction of that gas sitting on top of the magma as a seperate vapour/fluid phase, but those aren't going to be the gases contributing to the eruptability - the ones in the magma are.

Although you are right in that some people have looked at fumaroles as a source of rare earth elements etc. Not sure how it turned out though.

The amount of heat you'd have to get rid of, I expect, would be enough to drop the magma sufficiently to crystallise the magma to 55% where it can't be physically erupted any more, or to get the entire system way below Tg. Assuming you only need to do half of the magma chamber and lose a few hundred degrees, you'd need to remove 1E20 J, but as AD said, that's assuming the system is closed, rather than having an existing geothermal gradient in the rocks around ayway and being resupplied from below. If you're drilling down to 6 km, you're already dealing with a background temperature of a few hundred degrees anyway. Also, in the process of cooling something that large, you'd be pressurising a lot of it more than it was already by trapping existing gas bubbles which are going to keep trying to grow from volatile diffusion whilst the magma becomes more and more solid. Even if you managed to effect a cooling, you could be making a system worse if there was a later injection of gas rich, hot magma from below - IIRC, injections of fresh, gas charged magma into the magma chamber is often a trigger for eruptions.
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Re: Europe, too, is sitting on a giant supervolcano...

Post by madd0ct0r »

El Moose Monstero wrote:
The amount of heat you'd have to get rid of, I expect, would be enough to drop the magma sufficiently to crystallise the magma to 55% where it can't be physically erupted any more, or to get the entire system way below Tg. Assuming you only need to do half of the magma chamber and lose a few hundred degrees, you'd need to remove 1E20 J, but as AD said, that's assuming the system is closed, rather than having an existing geothermal gradient in the rocks around ayway and being resupplied from below. If you're drilling down to 6 km, you're already dealing with a background temperature of a few hundred degrees anyway. Also, in the process of cooling something that large, you'd be pressurising a lot of it more than it was already by trapping existing gas bubbles which are going to keep trying to grow from volatile diffusion whilst the magma becomes more and more solid.
Tg is what?

Talk to me about these self pressurizing bubbles. We have bubbles of gas under very high pressure in the gloopy magma. We cool it till it turns into a magma slushy. The bubbles cool as well so must lose a bit of pressure. But then, afterwards, volatiles evaporate out of the solids into bubbles, slowly raising the pressure in them until the pressure is so high that further evaporation is impossible.
If this highly slushy with pressurized bubbles in it is then heated by new magma, the bubbles get even higher pressure due to heat and can theoretically rip apart their slightly softened slush walls triggering more bursting bubbles and eventually a gigantic belch that marks an eruption?

SO what we need to do is remove the bubbles from the magma while it's still gloopy. For concrete we use high frequency vibration. I shudder to think how you'd manage that for something this size though.
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Re: Europe, too, is sitting on a giant supervolcano...

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madd0ct0r wrote:SO what we need to do is remove the bubbles from the magma while it's still gloopy. For concrete we use high frequency vibration. I shudder to think how you'd manage that for something this size though.
Nukes? :lol:

Who knows, maybe my mad plan wasn't so mad after all.
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Re: Europe, too, is sitting on a giant supervolcano...

Post by SpaceMarine93 »

The Campi Flegrei caldera is a supervolcano. While a new eruption here would be more likely to result in the creation of another Vesuvius-like cone, the worst-case scenario could see it obliterating much of life in Europe
:shock: Oh Bollocks.

Well, on the bright side, I suppose after this is published the EU would at least start developing some sort of contingency plan to deal with the crisis in case Campi Flegrei finally blew. A supervolcano with the potential to destroy all life on the continent and cause global catastrophe at any given moment is something they simply cannot afford to overlook just because they don't have the budget or the willingness to do something about it. Not that I think it would help.

By the way, here's the map showing where the supervolcano is, plus size:

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Re: Europe, too, is sitting on a giant supervolcano...

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Irbis wrote:
madd0ct0r wrote:SO what we need to do is remove the bubbles from the magma while it's still gloopy. For concrete we use high frequency vibration. I shudder to think how you'd manage that for something this size though.
Nukes? :lol:

Who knows, maybe my mad plan wasn't so mad after all.
No. It is still mad.
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