Creationist Literature

[Guardsman Bass]

Although the above may seem like an oxymoron, I have had the unfortunate opportunity to read much of this tripe.


One of my personal favorites was "God-The Evidence." (I can't remember the author's name) This writer has got to have been the father of all "leap-in-logic" people. An example: He says that the laws of the universe are such that life can exist. Therefore, the universe must have been created on purpose for humanity!



"God must love stupid people . . . he made so many of you."

[u]-anonymous t-shirt[/u]

[Darth Yoshi]

What ego that man has. Has he ever stopped to think that we're accidents, and that we were an unfortunate side effect of the universe's creation?

[Darth Wong]

Or that there's more biological complexity in a piece of wheat or a grain of rice than there is in human beings? Or that insects, not humans, rule the Earth by virtue of coverage, population, and survivability?

I don't remember who said this, but someone once commented that after studying zoology for a considerable length of time, he had come to the conclusion that God, if he exists, must have a special fondness for ... beetles. After all, more than 1/4 of all known species fall into that family.

[Robert Walper]

Or that there's more biological complexity in a piece of wheat or a grain of rice than there is in human beings? Or that insects, not humans, rule the Earth by virtue of coverage, population, and survivability?

I don't remember who said this, but someone once commented that after studying zoology for a considerable length of time, he had come to the conclusion that God, if he exists, must have a special fondness for ... beetles. After all, more than 1/4 of all known species fall into that family.

The only thing that really makes us stand out in the world is our ability to think and reason.

Without our brains, we'd simply be the species that all the meat eaters love because we are physically weak in comparison to other animals of equal size, therefore we make a great easy snack for predators.

However, in the experiment of life, brains is the key to dominance, and therefore we have the power of life and death over entire species, and virtually life on the planet Earth altogether.

[lgot]

The only thing that really makes us stand out in the world is our ability to think and reason.

I think you did not understand well...The only thing that makes us stand out in the world is adaptation. Reason have nothing to do it that. There is so many stuff that makes us survive, among those our slow development which is posterior to our brain's development.

Without our brains, we'd simply be the species that all the meat eaters love because we are physically weak in comparison to other animals of equal size, therefore we make a great easy snack for predators.

You notice that Humans are actually bigger than the majority of animals in the earth ? That many primates are carnivores no matter the size ? The most unstopabble predator in tropical land is not the jaguar or anaconda, but ants ?

However, in the experiment of life, brains is the key to dominance, and therefore we have the power of life and death over entire species, and virtually life on the planet Earth altogether.

Hence, the adaptation is not a run for dominance, there is no such thing as key to dominace. Like Darth Wong pointed, the world is dominated by insects. Resistense, reproduction and small size are the key of dominance.
You seem to be yet tainted by human arrogance that is a trait of those who believe the life and earth was created to our pleasure and use. We hold no such power over nature who does not care about us more than she cares for a amoeba.

[Robert Walper]

Like Darth Wong pointed, the world is dominated by insects.

Yeah, in the numbers game. He wasn't saying ants are controlling the planet or that they are our intellectual equals.

Resistense, reproduction and small size are the key of dominance.

Don't confuse species population with dominance. Humans are the dominant species on this planet. Definition of dominance: "any of one or more kinds of organism (as a species) in an ecological community that exerts a controlling influence on the environment and thereby largely determines what other kinds of organisms are present"

Ants win the numbers game hands down. Do their actions dictate the survival of other species like whales, primates and such? No. Therefore they are not the domiant species on this planet, they simply are the most numerous.

You seem to be yet tainted by human arrogance

Arrogance? It's a fact, we as humans are the dominant species on this planet. This doesn't mean we have control over nature or the Earth itself, merely control over the other species that share this world with us. If you disagree, you should familarize yourself more with our impact upon Earth.

that is a trait of those who believe the life and earth was created to our pleasure and use.

Where did I say Earth was created for our usage and pleasure? Where did I even imply it? I think such a viewpoint is utterly ridiculas. If some guy bangs down my door and has a gun, he's the dominate human in the house. If I say he's the dominate human in the house, that doesn't imply in any way that the house was his or there for his convienence.

We hold no such power over nature who does not care about us more than she cares for a amoeba.

A) I never said we held any power over nature.
B) I never said nature held us in any "special" regard or that Earth was for our usage and pleasure.
C) I said we are the dominant species on this planet. Are you disagreeing?

[lgot]

Yeah, in the numbers game. He wasn't saying ants are controlling the planet or that they are our intellectual equals.

Neither anyone did, Because the game is Survival. There the insects are pretty much doing fine or even better than us. To Survive there is no need for intellectual power

Don't confuse species population with dominance. Humans are the dominant species on this planet. Definition of dominance: "any of one or more kinds of organism (as a species) in an ecological community that exerts a controlling influence on the environment and thereby largely determines what other kinds of organisms are present"

I did not. Ants does not have the highest population. But they are extremely dominant. They do change in their area what any specie would do. They have culture to dominated and nurse other insects killing other animals that feed upon those. They replant the florest in the way they wish so, killing plants that is not of their interest - in other words plants that do not provide the apropriate shelter or aliment to them. They change the releve of the place they habit and most veterbrates avoid the area of their big homes. And many insects does that.
I accept I used the word dominance wrongly, since there is no such thing on importance in the Survival race. But you shall notice that either me and Darth Wong used the meaning, as the dominant , rule race as the most sucessful in the survival word. That was the meaning used.
But then, Ants (and lots of insects) still dominant. They do exerts a controlling influence on the environment and thereby largely determines what other kinds of organisms are present

Arrogance? It's a fact, we as humans are the dominant species on this planet. This doesn't mean we have control over nature or the Earth itself, merely control over the other species that share this world with us. If you disagree, you should familarize yourself more with our impact upon Earth.

This is arrogance. Our impact ? You mean, the impact of the insects over the nature, much bigger than ours. Vegetables impact, huh ? If they did not developed like they did, where would us be ?
We are too younger, and is nto even fair, to compare our impact over those two.

Where did I say Earth was created for our usage and pleasure? Where did I even imply it? I think such a viewpoint is utterly ridiculas. If some guy bangs down my door and has a gun, he's the dominate human in the house. If I say he's the dominate human in the house, that doesn't imply in any way that the house was his or there for his convienence.

You split a sentence in two. For what ? I never said you said that.

A) I never said we held any power over nature.
B) I never said nature held us in any "special" regard or that Earth was for our usage and pleasure.
C) I said we are the dominant species on this planet. Are you disagreeing?

What ?
"However, in the experiment of life, brains is the key to dominance, and therefore we have the power of life and death over entire species, and virtually life on the planet Earth altogether."

You NEVER said we held any power over nature ? You mean, to have power of life and eath , of all life in the planet Earth is what ????
B ) I did not said you said it.
C ) Yes.

[XaLEv]

I remember reading through a creationist book at my grandparents' house. I can't remember the title or author, but it was pretty funny. Actually, now that I think about it, it was less creationist and more anti-everything not christian which happens to talk about creationism. I can't remember all of what I read in it, but one of the parts which really sticks out is the section attacking Buddhism. It basically said that Buddhists believe desire is wrong, therefore Buddhists don't believe in things like eating or wearing clothes in cold weather. Then there was the section about the age of Earth. The only part I can remember about this is that it said Sol is shrinking, so Earth can't be much more than 6000 years old or it would have been inside the sun. Then there were parts attacking Shriners, Masons and athiests. That's all I can remember about it. I'd ask if anyone here knows the title, but that would be a bit like asking you to find a needle in a stack of needles, so I won't.

[Robert Walper]

Neither anyone did, Because the game is Survival. There the insects are pretty much doing fine or even better than us. To Survive there is no need for intellectual power

Look, I'm not denying that ants are excellent survivers or perhaps even better at surviving than us. I'm not saying species requires intellectual power in order to survive, but in our case I think we do because we are ver pitiful in the animal kingdom otherwise. But humans are the dominant species on this planet. Ants dominant us in numbers. Ants in all probability dominant us in survivablility. However, we dominant the planet in the sense that as a species on this planet we have the most control over the enviroment and other species.

I did not. Ants does not have the highest population. But they are extremely dominant.

In the numbers game yes. I already agreed to that. Why are you repeating it?

They do change in their area what any specie would do.

Their ability to change the enviroment is insignificant to how much we change the enviroment.

They have culture to dominated and nurse other insects killing other animals that feed upon those.

Ants don't make species go extinct like we do. That fact that they can kill a couple large animals through shear numbers proves nothing, unless you're saying entire species have gone extinct because of ants. Ants are dominant in the insect world, not the entire Earth on the large scale.

They replant the florest in the way they wish so, killing plants that is not of their interest

Yeah, and we strip-mine forests so badly we affect the world's clean air supply .

- in other words plants that do not provide the apropriate shelter or aliment to them. They change the releve of the place they habit and most veterbrates avoid the area of their big homes.

Yeah, that's impressive on an insect level, not world scale.

And many insects does that.
I accept I used the word dominance wrongly, since there is no such thing on importance in the Survival race. But you shall notice that either me and Darth Wong used the meaning, as the dominant , rule race as the most sucessful in the survival word.

Yes, I admitted above that ants in all probability will outsurvive us, like in the event of mass extinction because of an asteroid impact. But then, ants don't possess the ability to potentially deflect and avoid a possible extinction scenario. And they still don't dominant the planet like we do. That's what I'm saying. They dominant the world in their own little way, but they aren't the dominant species on the planet, we are.

That was the meaning used.
But then, Ants (and lots of insects) still dominant. They do exerts a controlling influence on the environment and thereby largely determines what other kinds of organisms are present

However, not on our scale.

This is arrogance. Our impact ? You mean, the impact of the insects over the nature, much bigger than ours.

Name one species ants can take creadit for driving to extinction or on the brink of extinction?

For humans, humpback whales is a good example. Not to mention that's a sea dwelling creature, and we are not, therefore our impact extends even beyond our natural habitat.

Vegetables impact, huh ? If they did not developed like they did, where would us be?

How is this relevent to the fact we are the dominant species on Earth?

We are too younger, and is nto even fair, to compare our impact over those two.

Fair? Our impact on the Earth is drastically unfair for other species, but it's fact.

"However, in the experiment of life, brains is the key to dominance, and therefore we have the power of life and death over entire species, and virtually life on the planet Earth altogether."

You NEVER said we held any power over nature?

That's correct. I said we have power over the fate of other species. Technically, species are part of nature(but so are we), but when you say nature, I assume you mean things like tornados, hurricanes, earthquakes, tides, etc. Those we don't control, at least not directly.

You mean, to have power of life and eath , of all life in the planet Earth is what ????
B ) I did not said you said it.
C ) Yes.

[/quote]

Your response is so badly written I have trouble reading and understanding it. But let me sum up again what I'm trying to say:

1) Humans are the dominant species on this planet. When I say dominant, I mean that of all the lifeforms on this Earth, we have the most power over other species and the enviroment.
2) Human impact is far greater than what ants do. Ants actually fit into the ecological system, as part of it and help it. We destroy it and modify to suit ourselves, only recently taking an active hand in trying to preserve it.
3) Humans have the potential to wipe out practically all life on Earth. That's why nuclear weapons are so terrible. Ants would probably survive, but I'm not disputing their ability to survive, just their ability to bring about what we can. So unless you're going to say ants contribute to global warming or possess nuclear warheads that can "destroy" the earth, we have the bigger impact upon other species and the enviroment, therefore we are the dominant species.

[Darth Wong]

1) Humans are the dominant species on this planet. When I say dominant, I mean that of all the lifeforms on this Earth, we have the most power over other species and the enviroment.

Highly questionable assertion. All of the oxygen in the atmosphere is generated by plant life. Does that not count as power over the environment? By the way, what definition of "dominant" are you using? From a biological standpoint, dominance is a matter of simple numbers. Insects win. From a military standpoint, dominance is a matter of taking and holding territory. Insects win; they occupy all territory, and the best efforts of mankind cannot clear even small regions of land of insects. In the war between man and insect, insect is clearly winning.

2) Human impact is far greater than what ants do. Ants actually fit into the ecological system, as part of it and help it. We destroy it and modify to suit ourselves, only recently taking an active hand in trying to preserve it.

Wrong. All species of animal alter their environment, often to the detriment of other species. No species can "fit into the ecological system" without altering it. How do you think 99% of the species in the history of this planet went extinct? Do you really think we're the first species to eat up another species' food supply or drive them off their land? Carl Sagan once pointed out that from interstellar space, the effects of bovine flatulence can be easily observed while all of the works of mankind are invisible. Helps put things in perspective.

3) Humans have the potential to wipe out practically all life on Earth. That's why nuclear weapons are so terrible. Ants would probably survive, but I'm not disputing their ability to survive, just their ability to bring about what we can.

And you are making an unjustified value judgement that one is important while the other is not, based solely on your desire to arbitrarily weigh the various factors in order to support your human egocentrism. Our ability to wipe out practically all life on Earth would also wipe us out, so it is meaningless. The ants' ability to survive anything we can possibly do to them, on the other hand, is hardly meaningless. They will probably outlast us, you know.

So unless you're going to say ants contribute to global warming or possess nuclear warheads that can "destroy" the earth, we have the bigger impact upon other species and the enviroment, therefore we are the dominant species.

Who gives a shit who is the "dominant" species under your particular definition of "dominance," which is based not on biology or on military definitions but rather, on your own personal desire to make humans seem supreme? The thread was originally about some creationist idiot's belief that the Earth was created for our convenience, remember? By pointing out how man is a complete accident and not intrinsically superior in any way to the rest of the ecosystem, we show how ridiculous that claim is. Your entire "dominance" tangent is a worthless red herring.

[David]

What a strange subject to be arguing over.

[Robert Walper]

What a strange subject to be arguing over.

True enough. I'll let it go, it's taking up the thread anyhow.

[lgot]

True turned out of topic ...
To tell the truth, I remember the hard thing to learn from Darwin is that he found out about our real lack of importance in the natural history. Even when the evolution is accepted, to reckon this is much harder to accept. Our importance is something that a creationist will never accept to lose...

[Robert Walper]

True turned out of topic ...
To tell the truth, I remember the hard thing to learn from Darwin is that he found out about our real lack of importance in the natural history. Even when the evolution is accepted, to reckon this is much harder to accept. Our importance is something that a creationist will never accept to lose...

Hope you're not implying me. I think the Earth would probably be a whole lot better without us. Till the killer asteroid shows up anyhow...

[lgot]

Hope you're not implying me. I think the Earth would probably be a whole lot better without us. Till the killer asteroid shows up anyhow...

nah, that was not especific to you, do not worry.

[His Divine Shadow]

[In the war between man and insect, insect is clearly winning.

Damn! This war is going nowhere! Pull out and commence operation Base Delta Zero!

Oh and make sure you get all the puppies and kittens too!