Johonebesus wrote:A historical note, if anyone cares, and they probably don't, but: Satan was originally the name of a servant of God, whose job it was to tempt humans, to test faith. That's what is going on in Job. Satan, a faithful servant, is giving a report to God. God then names Job as an example of true faith, and sends Satan to do his job and try Job. Lucifer was originally the name of a Babylonian priest. The serpent in Eden was just a serpent, no different than talking animals in many other myths. He had nothing to do with Satan. It wasn't until after the Babylonian Exile that the Jews started to question why their Omnipotent God allowed the nation to be all but destroyed. They evidently liked preferred the Persians' answer to their own prophets' assertion that the Jews were sinful, and so the idea of an enemy of God entered into our tradition, which causes the terrible paradox of an evil being tolerated by an omnipotent and good God, and also partially absolves the sinners.
I've heard about the talking serpent part, but not the rest. Thanks for the info.
On-Topic: Back when I was coming out of Fundamentalism, I thought Satan and Yaweh were both pretty bad, though Satan is definitely the lesser of two evils.
But now it doesn't matter, since they're both fairy tales.
Priesto wrote:Satan is the root of all evil.What are you one of those people who think we all have a little evil in us?Why do you think men do bad things? Man was without sin before he disobeyed God, what more do you need? Adam and Eve were equivalent to Jesus in that they were sinless and were to take the land.Sadly this isn't proof sense faith is an illogical concept, reason being? I have no clue.Do you believe someone who is full of hatred isn't due to satan? dis-obedience,Ungodly hatred, Ungodly Anger, lying, ungodly fear, ungodly judgement(murder) vanity and pride are all of satan.These are the opposite of good things or an extreme of that which is good.
So Adam and Eve, two fun luvin' kids who liked to walk around naked and shag before marriage were without sin? So I can do this too right? You know shag before marriage, hell I can walk around naked as well because that's what God intended for us right?
Are you alright? Naked? there was no such thing as naked.The tree of knowledge is what made that come into being.Sin is what brought the concept of naked.Sin made naked, it wasn't in the original equation.You're being silly, since you know the wickedness of men and the original sin of Adam and EVE, make this wrong.The concept of morals exist now due to sin.
Are you alright? Naked? there was no such thing as naked.The tree of knowledge is what made that come into being.Sin is what brought the concept of naked.Sin made naked, it wasn't in the original equation.
So you're saying that because we hadn't discovered that apples were edible yet, then we were clothed?
You're being silly, since you know the wickedness of men and the original sin of Adam and EVE, make this wrong.The concept of morals exist now due to sin.
So we are differentiated from animals because of the original sin... but we were better than animals to begin with, so therefore we were already differentiated from them, so therefore we were created with morals, so therefore God had no cause to chuck us out from the garden of eden, since nothing really changed us, so therefore we must still be in the garden of eden.
Fine by me.
"I would say that the above post is off-topic, except that I'm not sure what the topic of this thread is, and I don't think anybody else is sure either."
- Darth Wong Free Durian - Last updated 27 Dec
"Why does it look like you are in China or something?" - havokeff
Let's not forget that organized Satanism was a creation of disaffected Catholic priests (I can't remember when off the top of my head, but it goes back to the middle ages.) "Demonized" versions of the gods that the local heathens were worshipping before being created have crept into the christian mythos as well: look at all the depictions of Satan as having horns or appearing as a goat and tell me you don't see Bacchus in it. Same for pentagrams: they're merely the pentacle of pagan faiths, turned upside-down with the intent of causing harm rather than working good. I put it down to christianity having it's origins in Roman civilization: the Romans were always assimilators, taking what was useful from other civilizations as their own. Christianity merely carries the tradition on.
Personally, I see the devil as nothing more as blaming someone else for all the misery in the world. We humans aren't responsible for our actions, the DEVIL IS!
Though if he does exist, I see him as an bad rebelous older brother (since we all are gods children). He has is own beef with God, and he tries to use us for his own gain. He is evil in the fact that he doesn't care about us at all and uses us no matter if we get hurt.
Darth_Shinji wrote:Personally, I see the devil as nothing more as blaming someone else for all the misery in the world. We humans aren't responsible for our actions, the DEVIL IS!
I once had a conversation with a fundie who used that as the stock explanation for everything. Hitler? He wasn't a product of societal intolerance; no, it was SATAN!! Susan Smith? She wasn't a self-centred bitch; no, it was SATAN!!
Though if he does exist, I see him as an bad rebelous older brother (since we all are gods children). He has is own beef with God, and he tries to use us for his own gain. He is evil in the fact that he doesn't care about us at all and uses us no matter if we get hurt.
If he's bad for using us even though we might get hurt, then what does that make God, who actually causes the injury?
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
Darth Wong wrote:
If he's bad for using us even though we might get hurt, then what does that make God, who actually causes the injury?
That crap is so annoying. If Satan is the root of all evil but God created everything in the universe, including Satan, WTF?
Did God make Satan so powerful that he truly rivals God? Is that why God hasn't eliminated Satan so there would be no evil in the universe.
So much for all powerful. Either that or God is a twisted bastard who likes having Satan around, probably just to make himself look better because he has someone to blame his twisted shit on.
By the pricking of my thumb,
Something wicked this way comes.
Open, locks,
Whoever knocks.
Here we have God, all-powerful, wrathful, jealous, etc. Obey and find bliss, disobey and die/burn. On the other hand is Satan. This guy has some balls, standing up to the omniscient, all-powerful God.
Satan is a free-thinker; he doesn't buy into God's propoganda. He seeks to topple God's fascist regime. The chances aren't so good, since God is all-powerful and has a massive propoganda machine working for him (and against Satan), but Satan persists in his efforts, seeking to free the minds of men from God's twisted lies.
Anybody else know where they'll be when the shooting starts? Vive la revolution!
"If a cluttered desk signifies a cluttered mind, then of what does a clean desk signifiy?"
Albert Einstein
(the original, of course. I refuse to watch the new version, partly on principle, partly because it makes Brendan Fraser look ugly, and anything that can do that has just got to be bad for your health.)
"I would say that the above post is off-topic, except that I'm not sure what the topic of this thread is, and I don't think anybody else is sure either."
- Darth Wong Free Durian - Last updated 27 Dec
"Why does it look like you are in China or something?" - havokeff
Darth_Shinji wrote:Personally, I see the devil as nothing more as blaming someone else for all the misery in the world. We humans aren't responsible for our actions, the DEVIL IS!
I once had a conversation with a fundie who used that as the stock explanation for everything. Hitler? He wasn't a product of societal intolerance; no, it was SATAN!! Susan Smith? She wasn't a self-centred bitch; no, it was SATAN!!
lol. I've meet people like that, very sad.
Though if he does exist, I see him as an bad rebelous older brother (since we all are gods children). He has is own beef with God, and he tries to use us for his own gain. He is evil in the fact that he doesn't care about us at all and uses us no matter if we get hurt.
If he's bad for using us even though we might get hurt, then what does that make God, who actually causes the injury?[/quote] Does he? According to the old testement yes, But I don't put much stock in the Bible.
Lusankya wrote:I quite like the way he's betrayed in bedazzled.
(the original, of course. I refuse to watch the new version, partly on principle, partly because it makes Brendan Fraser look ugly, and anything that can do that has just got to be bad for your health.)
Aw c'mon, the Devil is HOT in the remake. But since you're into Brendan Fraser I can see your point. They also make him gay in one segment so I can see why you might not be interested.
By the way, anyone seen the deleted section where Fraser is a heavy metal rock-n-roller ala Ozzy? It is one of the funnier bits but it is a lot darker than any of the other ones. Plus it has Liz Hurley in a French maid outfit.
By the pricking of my thumb,
Something wicked this way comes.
Open, locks,
Whoever knocks.
"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
Tsyroc wrote:By the way, anyone seen the deleted section where Fraser is a heavy metal rock-n-roller ala Ozzy? It is one of the funnier bits but it is a lot darker than any of the other ones. Plus it has Liz Hurley in a French maid outfit.
I nearly pissed myself watching it. He does the metal super-star thing PERFECTLY (once again proving what a versatile actor he is, as if the rest of the movie isn't proof).
"If a cluttered desk signifies a cluttered mind, then of what does a clean desk signifiy?"
Albert Einstein
LIz Hurley might have made a good-looking devil, but....
and I wouldn't really care about the gay bit. Just as long as he's interested enough in girls to give me a chance...
"I would say that the above post is off-topic, except that I'm not sure what the topic of this thread is, and I don't think anybody else is sure either."
- Darth Wong Free Durian - Last updated 27 Dec
"Why does it look like you are in China or something?" - havokeff
Personally if you read the Talmud or the Koran he's not that bad.
Basicly his defiance was that he said he would serve God willingly but he would not follow the orders of Adam and Lillith.
So along with Lillith, Lucifer got his pink slip, on the "6th day", and a Third of the Angels quit over their firing.
Lucifer then took the "7th day" and while god was sleeping showed Adam and Eve the wonders of Knowledge of all things including good and evil.
That is actually the whole point of his defiance, and it was something that god wanted done ANYWAYS, just not then.
kinda funny when you think about it.
oh, for those who haven't read the Talmud, Lillith was created alongside Adam, refused to be submissive, and Adam asked god to get rid of her, so THEN God makes Eve, Later on Lillith hooks up with Adam's Son Cain and well those two created all of the first empire building humans. While the Other Children of Adam and Eve remain hunter gathers. And eventually become slaves to the murderous, city dwelling, enslaving, children of Cain.
The scariest folk song lyrics are "My Boy Grew up to be just like me" from cats in the cradle by Harry Chapin
Lusankya wrote:LIz Hurley might have made a good-looking devil, but....
and I wouldn't really care about the gay bit. Just as long as he's interested enough in girls to give me a chance...
... must... keep... mouth... shut...
Which bit were you going to keep your mouth shut about?
"I would say that the above post is off-topic, except that I'm not sure what the topic of this thread is, and I don't think anybody else is sure either."
- Darth Wong Free Durian - Last updated 27 Dec
"Why does it look like you are in China or something?" - havokeff
Lusankya wrote:LIz Hurley might have made a good-looking devil, but....
and I wouldn't really care about the gay bit. Just as long as he's interested enough in girls to give me a chance...
Sorry, he had Liz Hurley coming on to him while wearing a French maid's costume and sitting on his lap and that didn't even faze him. Plus, the guy he was living with was a really ugly dude so I think it is safe to say that the gay version of Brendan Fraser (in Bedazzled) wouldn't give you a chance. Maybe a kiss though. He did give his dream girl a kiss just to be sure he was really gay.
You might try a go at the super sensitive guy with the freckles. If you could ever get him to shut up he'd certainly put your needs first.
By the pricking of my thumb,
Something wicked this way comes.
Open, locks,
Whoever knocks.
the tree apple thing never made much sense to me.
gods suposed to be omnipontent.
he doesn't want use to eat from said tree so why did he A make the tree in the first place or B not just stop humanity getting to it?
The only way the entire Christian concept of sin makes sense to me:
Define sin as: something against God's wishes.
Define sinner as: someone who chooses to ignore God.
Define Hell as: a place "away" from God.
Note: Moral right and wrong would still exist. So, although stealing is morally wrong, it also a sin because God said not to do it.
Therefore:
The sin wasn't in eating the apple. The sin was in disobeying God. By choosing to go against God, Adam and Eve chose to distance themselves from God's wishes (ie. entered a state of sin). That's not necessarily a bad thing, but they'd lose God's favour (and place in eden). A sinner will go to Hell because of personal choice... they choose to ignore God in life so they get the same in the afterlife.
Of course this would mean that, even *IF* god exists, there's no real need to worship him. Its simply a descision as to wether you want to spend eternity with a tyrannical dictator.
Of course this is a pretty liberal view of Christianity, and I personally don't know any Christians that believe this.
Its simply a descision as to wether you want to spend eternity with a tyrannical dictator.
Don't forget Homofobic and Genocidal!
"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
the tree apple thing never made much sense to me.
gods suposed to be omnipontent.
he doesn't want use to eat from said tree so why did he A make the tree in the first place or B not just stop humanity getting to it?
seems like a set up to me.
It's even better than that. If God created Adam and Eve with no knowledge of good and evil, and obeying God equates to good, then Adam and Eve could not have known that disobeying him was evil.
So, in reality, he punished them for not obeying him. It had nothing to do with good or evil.
Damien Sorresso
"Ever see what them computa bitchez do to numbas? It ain't natural. Numbas ain't supposed to be code, they supposed to quantify shit."
- The Onion
Fine by me.
But since you're into Brendan Fraser I can see your point. They also make him gay in one segment so I can see why you might not be interested.
