How does finding an alien spaceship help research&science?

[Serafina]

We all know this conspiracy theory: The governmet finds a spaceship, and all of modern technology (computers, mobile phones, whatever) is spawned from it.

Now, the question is: How would we we benefit from something like that?
Of course we would not be able to rebuild it or do similar engineering, but what could we learn from it?
Especially if we have technology from the 50's or 60's - could we even analyze something like a modern computer or how it works? How long would it take to learn from it, and how likely would we screw it up (like, blowing it up)?

[CaptainChewbacca]

In a lot of cases, just seeing that something EXISTS would help. If England circa 1890 were to have an F-16 crash near Sussex, it would prove that powered flight IS possible and that more research should be done.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

We start messing around with the reactor and accidentally blow up southern Nevada, including Las Vegas. Oops. But in doing so learn that some kind of bizarre Star Wars style hypermatter actually exists, so we know to look for it.

[Isolder74]

We start messing around with the reactor and accidentally blow up southern Nevada, including Las Vegas. Oops. But in doing so learn that some kind of bizarre Star Wars style hypermatter actually exists, so we know to look for it.

After the explosion everyone that might know anything is dead. How would the investigators afterward even have much of a clue what just happened?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

We start messing around with the reactor and accidentally blow up southern Nevada, including Las Vegas. Oops. But in doing so learn that some kind of bizarre Star Wars style hypermatter actually exists, so we know to look for it.

After the explosion everyone that might know anything is dead. How would the investigators afterward even have much of a clue what just happened?

Uh, because we'd have done a full survey of the vehicle and reported all the results to some very classified defense programme, which would have backup copies of the data in Washington D.C. ? I love how people think that basic programme data must be stored on site or something, sheesh.

[Isolder74]

In a lot of cases, just seeing that something EXISTS would help. If England circa 1890 were to have an F-16 crash near Sussex, it would prove that powered flight IS possible and that more research should be done.

How would that help? The F-16 would look like a big rocket to them and might even be assumed to be artillery.

[Isolder74]

We start messing around with the reactor and accidentally blow up southern Nevada, including Las Vegas. Oops. But in doing so learn that some kind of bizarre Star Wars style hypermatter actually exists, so we know to look for it.

After the explosion everyone that might know anything is dead. How would the investigators afterward even have much of a clue what just happened?

Uh, because we'd have done a full survey of the vehicle and reported all the results to some very classified defense programme, which would have backup copies of the data in Washington D.C. ? I love how people think that basic programme data must be stored on site or something, sheesh.

In explosion most of any stuff in the reactor just went by by.

And that tells the people checking the scene what? They have pics of the UFO and what is assumed to be a reactor. So all they know now is the alien ship uses a reactor that goes off like a H-bomb when tinkered with. That's going to be a whole lot of help. That gives anyone one else who knows anything about the secret project diddly squat what the thing runs on other then there sure is a lot of kick in that flying saucer.

[Darth Wong]

Even if they haven't the slightest idea how it works, it can serve the simple purpose of terrifying people about the fact that a clearly far superior entity exists out there somewhere. Hell, the metals of a modern fighter plane alone would be vastly superior to their science.

How would that help? The F-16 would look like a big rocket to them and might even be assumed to be artillery.

Even a 19th century engineer would be able to identify the pilot's seat as a seat meant for a human passenger. There's no way they would mistake it for rocket artillery.

[Samuel]

In a lot of cases, just seeing that something EXISTS would help. If England circa 1890 were to have an F-16 crash near Sussex, it would prove that powered flight IS possible and that more research should be done.

How would that help? The F-16 would look like a big rocket to them and might even be assumed to be artillery.

They do not look like artillary. The cockpit is a dead give away. Now, if the plane crashes and explodes you aren't going to have much if anything to work with.

And that tells the people checking the scene what? They have pics of the UFO and what is assumed to be a reactor. So all they know now is the alien ship uses a reactor that goes off like a H-bomb when tinkered with. That's going to be a whole lot of help. That gives anyone one else who knows anything about the secret project diddly squat what the thing runs on other then there sure is a lot of kick in that flying saucer.

It tells us our knowledge of physics is wrong.

[Darth Wong]

It tells us our knowledge of physics is wrong.

The word you're looking for is "incomplete", not "wrong". It's not as if the discovery of a UFO with anti-grav technology would suddenly make Newton's law of action/reaction "wrong", since it obviously works and would continue to be applied regularly.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

In explosion most of any stuff in the reactor just went by by.

And that tells the people checking the scene what? They have pics of the UFO and what is assumed to be a reactor. So all they know now is the alien ship uses a reactor that goes off like a H-bomb when tinkered with. That's going to be a whole lot of help. That gives anyone one else who knows anything about the secret project diddly squat what the thing runs on other then there sure is a lot of kick in that flying saucer.

We would, to wit, know the following:

1. The mass of the spaceship.
2. The tankage of the spaceship (fuel capacity).
3. The amount of fuel currently aboard (doesn't require us to open the tanks or something stupid).
4. The yield of the explosion when tinkering with the reactor did cause it, and therefore the ratio of that yield to the mass of the vehicle and the observed internal storage of what might be fuel--this gives us a rough idea of what the energy density of the ship's fuel is.

So as you can see, you're simply wrong. We'd certainly photograph the entire interior before tinkering with anything, too, which would also be enormously useful, and there's some other detection equipment we could (and would) use on the interior before trying to take it apart, which is when the problems would occur.

[Darth Wong]

Isolder74 seems to be assuming that whoever examines the spacecraft would be reckless and stupid, and just start randomly tinkering with anything he can reach. We'd probably spend years examining it before attempting to disassemble the thing. And we'd start by taking the most superficial parts off for further analysis, not by going straight to the most well-protected part of the ship, which would probably be the reactor.

[Isolder74]

In explosion most of any stuff in the reactor just went by by.

And that tells the people checking the scene what? They have pics of the UFO and what is assumed to be a reactor. So all they know now is the alien ship uses a reactor that goes off like a H-bomb when tinkered with. That's going to be a whole lot of help. That gives anyone one else who knows anything about the secret project diddly squat what the thing runs on other then there sure is a lot of kick in that flying saucer.

We would, to wit, know the following:

1. The mass of the spaceship.
2. The tankage of the spaceship (fuel capacity).
3. The amount of fuel currently aboard (doesn't require us to open the tanks or something stupid).
4. The yield of the explosion when tinkering with the reactor did cause it, and therefore the ratio of that yield to the mass of the vehicle and the observed internal storage of what might be fuel--this gives us a rough idea of what the energy density of the ship's fuel is.

So as you can see, you're simply wrong. We'd certainly photograph the entire interior before tinkering with anything, too, which would also be enormously useful, and there's some other detection equipment we could (and would) use on the interior before trying to take it apart, which is when the problems would occur.

And what good would that do? How could we even me sure what are fuel tanks at all. We couldn't assume that everything that looks like a tank is fuel at all. As far s the pictures are concerned we now have a bunch of 'boxes' connected to a bunch of other boxes. It exploded leaving us with no idea how or what was taking place inside said 'boxes' inside. We wouldn't even have a minor clue where to even start to understand what just happened as everyone who knows what they touched to make it explode are all DEAD! So it blows up big and weighed more then we think it should. How the hell does that give us anything to work with? How can we know if it wasn't a destruct charge or the power-plant that did it. How would we even know where to begin?

Look at it this way you take photographs of the outside of Little Boy and have that be the only clues left after the science team just set the thing off opening it. How would the extra information that a Geiger counter clicks a lot at the site help us know how the damn thing works? How would that even get you started on building another atomic weapon if you never heard of Uranium before?

[Isolder74]

Isolder74 seems to be assuming that whoever examines the spacecraft would be reckless and stupid, and just start randomly tinkering with anything he can reach. We'd probably spend years examining it before attempting to disassemble the thing. And we'd start by taking the most superficial parts off for further analysis, not by going straight to the most well-protected part of the ship, which would probably be the reactor.

I am not but any such objects or information will give outsiders nothing to help know anything about the magic fuels inside. It is a bit stretch to assume that the explosion would lead to the discovery of the principles needed to discover it or how to make it.

[Samuel]

And what good would that do? How could we even me sure what are fuel tanks at all. We couldn't assume that everything that looks like a tank is fuel at all. As far s the pictures are concerned we now have a bunch of 'boxes' connected to a bunch of other boxes. It exploded leaving us with no idea how or what was taking place inside said 'boxes' inside. We wouldn't even have a minor clue where to even start to understand what just happened as everyone who knows what they touched to make it explode are all DEAD! So it blows up big and weighed more then we think it should. How the hell does that give us anything to work with? How can we know if it wasn't a destruct charge or the power-plant that did it. How would we even know where to begin?

Look at it this way you take photographs of the outside of Little Boy and have that be the only clues left after the science team just set the thing off opening it. How would the extra information that a Geiger counter clicks a lot at the site help us know how the damn thing works? How would that even get you started on building another atomic weapon if you never heard of Uranium before?

Fuel tanks need to be connected to an engine which needs an exhaust pipe, unless it is a reactionless drive in which case physics becomes... interesting.

As for making it automatically go off... aliens are assumed to have an OSHA equivalent. There will be warning signs, rails and the like to keep idiots away from the reactor.

And opening up Little Boy wouldn't kill you. If you set off the charges around the uranium you would die, but aside from that you are mostly safe.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Simply knowing that something is possible is a major achievement, you dolt. Currently we don't know that physics-breaking alien spaceships are possible, precisely because they break our current model of understood physics. If we were to find one and do even the most cursory investigation, we would have learned that our current model of the universe is inadequate. Do you realize the usefulness of knowing that? No, of course you don't, which is why you're ignorant.

And Mike is right.


Even if we did fuck with the thing and take out Vegas like I suspect, by then we'd have removed most of the non-essential and minor parts from the spaceship, and documented with every sensor we have available every single part of it, and as I noted take mass readings and so on. So even if we did accidentally blow it up or poison the area, which as Stuart pointed out in an earlier thread on this subject probably is fairly likely (thus my pessimistic post), the end result is that we still learn a huge amount, especially because it lets us know our current model of physics is inadequate.

[Isolder74]

And what good would that do? How could we even me sure what are fuel tanks at all. We couldn't assume that everything that looks like a tank is fuel at all. As far s the pictures are concerned we now have a bunch of 'boxes' connected to a bunch of other boxes. It exploded leaving us with no idea how or what was taking place inside said 'boxes' inside. We wouldn't even have a minor clue where to even start to understand what just happened as everyone who knows what they touched to make it explode are all DEAD! So it blows up big and weighed more then we think it should. How the hell does that give us anything to work with? How can we know if it wasn't a destruct charge or the power-plant that did it. How would we even know where to begin?

Look at it this way you take photographs of the outside of Little Boy and have that be the only clues left after the science team just set the thing off opening it. How would the extra information that a Geiger counter clicks a lot at the site help us know how the damn thing works? How would that even get you started on building another atomic weapon if you never heard of Uranium before?

Fuel tanks need to be connected to an engine which needs an exhaust pipe, unless it is a reactionless drive in which case physics becomes... interesting.

As for making it automatically go off... aliens are assumed to have an OSHA equivalent. There will be warning signs, rails and the like to keep idiots away from the reactor.

And opening up Little Boy wouldn't kill you. If you set off the charges around the uranium you would die, but aside from that you are mostly safe.

Seen a Nuclear reactor? It has tons of pipes leading in and out. Coolant tanks and lots of other things. After the explosion how can we know what anything in the picture does and what they are for? How do we know what 'boxes' are fuel or something else? Whether or not Little Boy would go off is not the issue if opened that is almost the idea represented here. The alien ship after the reactor was touched(opened) exploded.

Imagine you took pictures of every part of a car after removing the radio and body panels. Then you blew the car up into tiny bits destroying the garage and the rest of the block leaving nothing of the car left. You know Nothing, nothing about how a car works how do you know that the gas tank holds the fuel and not the radiator? Both have lines running into the engine. How do you know that the oil pan isn't fuel. How do you know what the Window Washer fluid tank is for? Where do you even begin figuring things out from the pictures??

How does that help us start to learn about what makes it work inside the boxes? How does that make us know where to begin to understand what we don't know? All you have is pictures of one box connected to a bunch of other boxes.

Back to the A-bomb explosion. You a culture that does not know what radioactivity is and never heard of uranium after the bomb exploded at what point does that help them discover Nuclear Physics and Uranium?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

You're ignoring the damned point, which is simply knowing that it's POSSIBLE is a major step forward.

[Lord of the Abyss]

What you can figure out would depend on what's on board the ship. A few possibilities that would provide useful scientific insights :

Stable superheavy elements. There's been speculation for some time that there might be an "island of stability" in the periodic table for superheavy elements beyond the unstable, radioactive ones we know. If some were found, that hypothesis would be proven, and we'd have evidence that research in that direction is both fruitful and useful. And even back in the 50s identifying elements was old hat.

If the ship has a fusion plant that might be identifiable, due to the residue inside it left by the particular varieties of radiation produced by fusion. That would tell you that power from artificial fusion is not only possible, but can be produced in something small enough to fit in that particular power plant. So you know to fund fusion research.

Visual recordings. It would be quite possible that one or more of the aliens in question owned some equivalent of a camera or video album. Something that could be taken away and the buttons fiddled with, with little fear of destroying the ship if it turns out to be a bomb or such, and is less likely to require the ship's power or understanding of the alien language to use ( unlike the ship's computer ). Naturally, a recording like that could have all sorts of useful information on it, information we'd have a better chance of understanding than alien text.

Fuel tanks need to be connected to an engine which needs an exhaust pipe, unless it is a reactionless drive in which case physics becomes... interesting.

Or the thrust is provided by particles that pass through normal matter; either Robert L Forward or Charles Sheffield had a short story involving an alien craft that turned out to use a neutrino drive. Which, as pointed out in the story meant that they were VERY good with nuclear physics.

[Superman]

I think Isolder's points would be valid if the aircraft/ufo crashed thousands of years ago and was found by a group of Neanderthalls. Like Wong pointed out, a 19th century engineer has some knowledge of physics and scientific methodology.

I am not but any such objects or information will give outsiders nothing to help know anything about the magic fuels inside

Why would said engineer assume the fuels are "magic?"

[Isolder74]

You're ignoring the damned point, which is simply knowing that it's POSSIBLE is a major step forward.

We aren't talking about the careful disassembly of the ship here I am reffering to this situation

We start messing around with the reactor and accidentally blow up southern Nevada, including Las Vegas. Oops. But in doing so learn that some kind of bizarre Star Wars style hypermatter actually exists, so we know to look for it.

Not if you don't know what just happened!

A cave man witnessing a gunpowder explosion teaches him what about making Gunpowder? -given he understands fire.

A Victorian witnessing a Atomic Blast show then what about making an Atomic Bomb and refining Uranium into something useful? -given he knows what a bomb is.

How can can knowing that little thing makes a big boom help you get even started in learning the physics behind it?

[Kodiak]

We aren't talking about the careful disassembly of the ship here I am reffering to this situation

We start messing around with the reactor and accidentally blow up southern Nevada, including Las Vegas. Oops. But in doing so learn that some kind of bizarre Star Wars style hypermatter actually exists, so we know to look for it.

*SNIP*

How can can knowing that little thing makes a big boom help you get even started in learning the physics behind it?

I believe we're all willing to concede that if a crashed alien spacecraft explodes AND destroys all persons who are aware of the study AND all the research, then yes, that would be a problem. If all that is left behind is a smoking crater and nobody to answer the questions, then yes, that would be difficult. I think we can now move on from this very specific set of circumstances and move on to discussing reverse engineering.

[Lord of the Abyss]

A Victorian witnessing a Atomic Blast show then what about making an Atomic Bomb and refining Uranium into something useful? -given he knows what a bomb is.

How can can knowing that little thing makes a big boom help you get even started in learning the physics behind it?

A Victorian could certainly calculate that the blast is too powerful to be created by a chemical explosive so small, and realize that something more powerful must be at work. This would, among other things give him a leg up in estimating the age of the universe and/or the Earth since one of the arguments for a young universe/Earth was the assumption that stars couldn't fuel themselves long enough for an old universe/Solar system to still have them. The same goes for Earth's internal heat.

[Patrick Degan]

A Victorian witnessing a Atomic Blast show then what about making an Atomic Bomb and refining Uranium into something useful? -given he knows what a bomb is.

How can can knowing that little thing makes a big boom help you get even started in learning the physics behind it?

It would demonstrate directly that some element has a very high energy density per unit of mass which wasn't previously suspected. The blast radius of the detonaton provides a basis for calculation of the required energy to produce such an explosion. The thermal effects radius provides another sheaf of figures for further calculation. Comparison with known chemical explosives would reveal that none of them could provide the requisite energy density in such a small package as was witnessed before the detonation. You thus have the building blocks for a theory describing the event and the energy source required to produce it. If you're up to the 1890s, you're at the time when Henri Berquerel is discovering radioactivity in uranium and the Curies are experimenting with radium and are thus three steps ahead to a theoretical basis for the atomic bomb.

[Darth Wong]

It's one thing to say that it might blow up, but Isolder74 is acting as if it would definitely blow up. Why should we assume that? Should we assume that alien spacecraft designers would have no concept of safety? They wouldn't design the system to fail in a nondestructive fashion if possible? Why the fuck are we assuming that any ignorant tinkering with the device must cause an enormous explosion? Wouldn't the ship have safeguards to prevent any such thing, if at all possible?