Why is Ragging on Scientologists OK?

[Stravo]

We all chuckle with glee at the Tom Cruises and Nancy Cartwrights of the world as they talk about how Scientology was there for them and that L Ron Hubbard was speaking to them in a passage in one of his Scientology books. Thetans, Lord Xeno, what have you. Yet if someone talks about finding Jesus and the washing away of sins if we were to chuckle and point and laugh the reaction is markedly different.

Many of the people laughing at Scientologists and thinking that they're a cult would be deeply offended if the same logic were applied to Christianity, Judiasm, Islam, Wicca, etc.

What's the difference? Honestly I would love to hear from a RELIGIOUS person - not you horde of faithless heathens - why they feel that Christianity, etc is better or above Scientology. Be honest on why you think so.

[Gil Hamilton]

It depends.

If you think all of it is rediculous, then it doesn't seem to be hypocritical to me. After all, dead aliens possessing people and causing mental problems isn't that much more retarded than most classic religions, just it has a sci-fi flavor. I suppose the sci-fi flavor and the fact that the founder basically laid out ahead of time that it was a money making scam makes Scientologist a bit funnier though.

[DPDarkPrimus]

As it was put in the "Super Adventure Club" episode:

"That's absolutely retarded."
"Is it any more retarded than the son of god coming down and dying for your sins, or Buddha sitting under a tree for twenty years?"
"Yeah, way more retarded."

[Nephtys]

I'm not religious, but I think I can summarize it.

A burning bush, walking across water, coming back from the dead or stuff like that is ancient. It's craziness is less obvious because it's fantasy way-long-ago stuff. One could also rationalize them as allegories more easilly.

Scientology, or Falun Gung or a bunch of stuff like that are crazy simply because they use modern terms in an even more transparent manner. Space Emperor? Nuclear volcanos? A force field dungeon on an ice planet prison? DC8s with Warp Drive?

[CarsonPalmer]

Because it was started by a man who made it pretty clear the goal of the religion was to make him money.

[Rye]

I feel I should point out that the sneers scientologists may get in average conversation in the US actually does extend to other religions in my experience inthe the UK. Since public religion is borderline taboo, saying you're born again in christ or some other americanised evangelical slogan will get average people around you rolling their eyes or holding back giggles.

This happens also with new agey stuff, though when it comes to that, people generally will accept more bullshit from them before finding it truly silly.

Belief in ghosts and karmic ideas are really really common here in all age groups, but big "american style" religious displays are generally frowned upon as gaudy.

Scientology is still pretty much an unknown here, to be honest, though the church has had the courts come down on them pretty hard every time they tried shit.

[Darth Wong]

Because it was started by a man who made it pretty clear the goal of the religion was to make him money.

And of course, the early Roman Catholic Church was a paragon of virtue in comparison

Seriously, the above argument is quite characteristic of religious opinions I've heard on why Scientology deserves to be treated differently from Christianity. In fact, I've heard that exact argument countless times. These kinds of arguments are mostly based on three major conceits:

1) Christianity never did any of these things (in reality, the early Roman Catholic Church did it all: profiteering, persecution of heretics, the whole nine yards).

2) Christians who do bad things aren't real Christians, but Scientologists who do bad things are real Scientologists.

3) Nothing in the Old Testament was written to benefit the priesthood financially. This is quite frankly idiotic; it's plain to see where various portions of the Old Testament were obviously written in order to bring wealth and power to the priesthood, with detailed rules about special privileges only available to priests, the need to give generously, the necessity for lavish temples, etc.

[CarsonPalmer]

I agree with you on most of your points. However, the founder of the Church never said the best way to make money was to start a religion. A lot of the early churchmembers, particularly the founders, were zealous. Corruption came a little bit later on. L. Ron Hubbard wanted to make money from the beginning. From what I have read, the very early Church was a communal affair.

[drachefly]

Ah, but regardless of the rest of the facts, that the Christian priests did not actually come out and say "gee, you could make a lot of money off a religion" and then make one up.

That pretty much trumps all.

[Gil Hamilton]

Ah, but regardless of the rest of the facts, that the Christian priests did not actually come out and say "gee, you could make a lot of money off a religion" and then make one up.

That pretty much trumps all.

They just tithe the piss out of you. That's part of the story. Churches at the time would demand tithings and it was breaking people backs paying taxes to Rome and to the Temple. Hence the "Render Unto Caesar..." bit in the Bible. The Church in early Christianity was basically a second tax and that never really went away.

[Durandal]

Ah, but regardless of the rest of the facts, that the Christian priests did not actually come out and say "gee, you could make a lot of money off a religion" and then make one up.

That's because the bullshit they're peddling just happens to have been around the block a few times. For some reason, the fact that it has festered all these years is proof of its credibility.

No the Church is much more subtle. They simply demand that you give them money and then tell you that money isn't important. I've personally been extorted by a church. When I went to Catholic school, I had to end up paying for my last year because my dad was out of a job. Out of the blue, I got a bill for over $1000 in missed tuition payments which I was sure I'd made. After bitching at them and then having my dad bitch at them, they finally agreed to waive the debt (which they never convinced me that I owed) if my family went to church every Sunday and donated to the parish.

I was a senior and only a couple months from graduation, and I didn't have the money on-hand, so we had little choice but to comply. So don't tell me it isn't about the money with these people.

[Sea Skimmer]

Many of the people laughing at Scientologists and thinking that they're a cult would be deeply offended if the same logic were applied to Christianity, Judiasm, Islam, Wicca, etc.

Try figuring out what the difference between a cult and a religion is to begin with.. Far as I can tell its no more then a matter of size (sometimes) and a matter of general acceptance by others.

[drachefly]

Look, I'm not saying it's not a transparent con, but the other guy ADMITTED it.

[Dark Hellion]

You have to admit that the Church has more style than Scientology. Knights, Dragons, Demons, Iron Chariots, Burning Bushes, Human Sacrifice, Dogs and Cats living together, all that pazaz sounds like a good old fashion tolkieneque good vs. evil extravaganza. Scientology is slightly (very slightly) more unbelievable, but it tries harder to be believed. The Church has 2000 more years of experience lying to people, they have gotten really good at it, an almost believable lie is way easier to swallow than an completely unreasonable one, weather you want to believe them or not. I mean, bushes do burn, lightning strikes things, floods occur, phenomina exist that makes water look bloody, cities disappear for various reasons, it takes a much smaller bit of justification to mythicise these things than it does to have the MIGHTY SPACE EMPEROR. Of course they are equally bullshit, but in the mind of the average (read really fucking stupid) person, this doesn't matter, they go with the best alternative presented at the time (which normally is like 5 years old, when you are both stupid, and young).

[Wicked Pilot]

Try figuring out what the difference between a cult and a religion is to begin with.. Far as I can tell its no more then a matter of size (sometimes) and a matter of general acceptance by others.

One man is a nut job, two men make a cult, and with three you have a religion.

[mr friendly guy]

Thetans, Lord Xeno, what have you.

Thats Xenu you heretic. Now watch as Thetans infest your mind and cause untold suffering. However you can get rid of them by joining the Scientology purification programs. All for an exorbitant amount of money.

Back to the OP, since I am a godless heathen you might most probably aren't look from my POV, but here goes. Rationally there is no difference between scientology and other mainstream religions, in that the basis of their religion are unsupported claims which contradict known science. However it is different from the other religions because of if sci fi flavour.

I suppose people have become used to the fantasy type flavour of religions found in the Bible and ununused to the sci fi flavour of scientology. People tend to make fun of things without looking at their own beliefs and seeiing how logically stupid it is to make fun of something for a bunch of supernatural claims and at the same time respect a different bunch of supernatural claims.

[Zero]

Scientology actively advocates that its believers deny modern psychological practices, and is thought to have actually been involved in several murders. You could say that christianity has caused wars before, and that islam still causes many deaths, but in each of these cases, islam and christianity aren't specific united entities, just general religions that believe in a specific set of beliefs. Scientology is also a gigantic pyramid scheme based almost entirely around money. Catholicism DID sell salvation back in the day, but no respected religions do that sort of thing in the modern day. Tithing isn't the same as buying religion, and I've read several articles ridiculing modern day churches for kicking members out for not tithing enough, so this attitude against buying salvation isn't just towards scientology.

And the numbers. There are a lot of christians, mormons, muslims, buddhists, hindus, etc., etc., but not a lot of scientologists, so it's easier to disrespect the religion.

[Lone_Prodigy]

Which one of these is not a religion:

Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, or Scientology? You guessed correctly!

Scientology's own founder has on various occassions both denied and advocated scientology being a religion. I personally hate it because it forces people to pay thousands of dollars for their own brainwashing sessions, enforced using blackmail and violence. Plus... it's just so absurd. Alien souls in your body? Having women give birth silently without painkillers or c-sections? XENU?!

I have no regrets about spreading the message of Scientology's Insanity to everybody I know.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I mock all religions equally. I'm an equal opportunities bigot against religion.

[Surlethe]

What's the difference? Honestly I would love to hear from a RELIGIOUS person - not you horde of faithless heathens - why they feel that Christianity, etc is better or above Scientology. Be honest on why you think so.

There is no objective reason Christianity is "better" than Scientology, save for, perhaps, appeals to popularity and tradition. Religions, by their very nature, require faith over rational conclusions; in what sense, then, is the belief in the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient being "better" than the belief in a space emperor who confined billions of invisible souls to a planet, or vice-versa? The decision to believe in one or the other can only be made on faith, and so believers in Christianity are hypocrites if they ridicule Scientology, and then expect Christianity to be above that ridicule.

[Morilore]

I imagine there are two reasons.
1) Proximity to the bullshit artist who created Scientology. I imagine Christianity would be much less revered if there were extensive secular records of Paul (say) writing bad fantasy, getting busted for fraud, and expressing his desire to extort millions from the foolish masses. The fact that L Ron Hubbard lived in the modern age makes it easier for him to be a man rather than a myth.
2) Scientology has no style. There's nothing venerable or ancient about it; again, existing in and being of the modern world works against it. The language of Christianity - sin, Lord, soul, chariot, rapture, redemption - puts people in a different mental world, where the rules seem to work differently. Scientology has no such language, at least not a popular one, hence common people see it with the mind they use to fill out taxes and bitch about their employers, not the mind with which they have Faith.

[Morilore]

EDIT: Addenda to 1). I understand it is well-known that early church leaders were asses, but Joe Blow doesn't often encounter that history. By contrast, its not hard to find (and certainly easier to look for) records of Hubbard and his followers being dumb. Paul was ancient, so he's treated as larger than life; Hubbard is modern, and he's judged as other modern people are.

[Flagg]

Much of what Christ supposedly taught is remarkably different and more morally correct than what Hubbard wrote. Granted, most Christians seem to ignore what Christ is said to have said in favor of being greedy fuckholes, but if you judge them sollely on the basis of what they each said, I think Christs supposed teachings come out ahead.
A friend of mine over at SCN made this list and has given me permission to post it over here. I hope that's OK.

Scientology vs. Christianity

On revenge and enemies

"Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who ill-treat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also." - Jesus Christ, Luke 6:27-28, Matthew 5:38-39

"An enemy... may be injured by any means or tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed."
- L. Ron Hubbard, Penalties for Lower Conditions, HCO PL 18 Oct 67

"This is the correct procedure:
Spot who is attacking us.
Start investigating them promptly for FELONIES or worse using our own professionals, not outside agencies.
Double curve our reply by saying we welcome an investigation of them.
Start feeding lurid, blood sex crime actual evidence on the attackers to the press.
DON'T EVER tamely submit to an investigation of us. Make it rough, rough on attackers all the way."
- L. Ron Hubbard, Attacks on Scientology, HCO PL 25 Feb 1966

About telling the truth

"Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes', and your 'No', 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one." - Jesus Christ NT: Matthew 5:37

"Handling truth is a touchy business ... Tell an acceptable truth." - L. Ron Hubbard, The Missing Ingredient, 13 August 1970.


About using religious deception

"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them." - Jesus Christ, Matthew 7:15

"Churches are looked upon as reform groups. Therefore we must act like a reform group." - L. Ron Hubbard, 1966, According to Jon Atack's The Total Freedom Trap

About greed and money

"Give to everyone who asks you, do not demand it back." - Jesus Christ, Luke 6:30

"Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven." - Jesus Christ, Luke 18:22

"MAKE MONEY. MAKE MORE MONEY." - L. Ron Hubbard, HCO PL 9 Mar 72

About the price charged for religion

"Freely you have received, freely give." - Jesus Christ, Matthew 10:8

"PROCESSING MAY NEVER BE GIVEN AWAY BY AN ORG. Processing is too expensive to deliver." - L. Ron Hubbard HCO PL 27 Sep 70 (Issue I)

About the judicial system

"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court." - Jesus Christ, Matthew 5:25

"The law can be used very easily to harass... the purpose of the suit is to harass and discourage rather than to win." - L. Ron Hubbard, The Scientologist - A Manual on the Dissemination of Material", reprinted in The Technical Bulletins of Dianetics and Scientology volume 2, pp.151-171, 1979 printing.

About using religion to make money

"... men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain." - St. Paul, 1 Timothy 5:5

"I'd like to start a religion. That's where the money is." - L. Ron Hubbard to Lloyd Eshbach in 1949; quoted by Eshbach in Over My Shoulder.

About being open-minded

"Test everything. Hold on to the good." - St. Paul, 1 Thessalonians 5:21

"Never permit an 'open-minded' approach. [...] Never let them be half-minded about being Scientologists..." - L. Ron Hubbard, Keeping Scientology Working, HCO PL 7 Feb 65, reissued in 1980, 1991 edition.

About society in general

"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established." - St. Paul, Romans 13:1

"If we place the government on our chart of human evaluation we find a craven psychotic .... Governments are insane." - L. Ron Hubbard, Ability Magazine, Issue No. 5

About who will own the universe

"Blessed are the meek; for they shall inherit the earth." (Jesus Christ, Mat. 5:5)

"The universe is a rough universe. It is a terrible and deadly universe. Only the strong survive it, only the ruthless can own it." - L.Ron Hubbard, Scientology: A History of Man, p.38) Perry Scott

About the law

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." - Jesus Christ, Luke 5:17-18, (KJV)

"Somebody some day will say 'this is illegal'. By then be sure the orgs say what is legal or not." -- L. Ron Hubbard, HCOPL 4 January 1966

About lawsuits

"And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also." - Jesus Christ, Matt 5:40 (KJV)

"The purpose of the suit is to harass and discourage rather than to win...The law can be used very easily to harass, and...will generally be sufficient to cause [the enemy's] professional decease. If possible, of course ruin him utterly." - L.Ron Hubbard, Magazine articles on Level O Checksheet, American Saint Hill Organization 1968.

About forgiveness

"And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other;" - Jesus Christ, Luke 6:29 (KJV)

"We are not a turn-the-other-cheek religion." - Liesa Goodman, cult spokesperson, on MTV's "New Religions: The Cult Question", June 1995

[18-Till-I-Die]

Personally, i judge things like religion more on individuals. Because faith is so personal, you can have two people who believe precisely the same religion but live so differently its like night and day, one might be Jimmy Carter the other say George Bush...you follow me?

So as i've never met any scientologists i dont mock them, just like i dont mock anything i dont understand or know. If i met one who was an asshole, i'd certainly mock and dislike him/her, but not the religion in general since it doesnt directly control every individual believer (and i dont buy crap about 'brainwashing', blackmailing sounds reasonable though i dont think its nearly as widespread as people fantasise).

So no i dont think Christianity is 'better' than Scientology, i think there are major problems within that religion though but there are easily similar or worse problems in many other religions (Catholic rape scandal?) so i'm not going to be a hypcrite and say otherwise. This is all just a personal opinion of course.

I do however fully admit there is no difference between a religion and a cult. I dont see why people put such a negative lean on the word 'cult', the ancient Greeks used to use it to mean any religion, AFAIK, so i have no problem calling Christianity, Scientology, Islam and every other religion a cult cause thats what they are classically, cults.

[Darth Wong]

Look, I'm not saying it's not a transparent con, but the other guy ADMITTED it.

So? How do you know the early Jewish priests didn't admit it too? You're simply taking advantage of the fact that the origins of the Judeo-Christian religion are lost in the mists of history. If there was as much obscuring of the origins of Scientology a thousand years from now, would it become more of a legitimate religion?