Ectogenesis and artificial wombs

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Benny the Ball
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Ectogenesis and artificial wombs

Post by Benny the Ball »

After stumbling upon TVTropes' Uterine Replicator page and subsequently finding out about Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan Saga, a scifi futuristic setting where artificial reproduction has largely supplanted natural births, I've been intrigued by the possibility of artificial wombs developing in the near future and what they might mean for society. Upon googling the subject, I found a couple of interesting articles:

http://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2 ... ss-births/
Scientifically, it’s called ectogenesis, a term coined by J.B.S. Haldane in 1924. A hugely influential science popularizer, Haldane did for his generation what Carl Sagan did later in the century. He got people thinking and talking about the implications of science and technology on our civilization, and did not shy away from inventing new words in order to do so. Describing ectogenesis as pregnancy occurring in an artificial environment, from fertilization to birth, Haldane predicted that by 2074 this would account for more than 70 percent of human births.

His prediction may yet be on target.

In discussing the idea in his work Daedalus–a reference to the inventor in Greek mythology who, through his inventions, strived to bring humans to the level of the gods–Haldane was diving into issues of his time, namely eugenics and the first widespread debates over contraception and population control.

Whether Haldane’s view will prove correct about the specific timing of when ectogenesis might become popular, or the numbers of children born that way, it’s certain that he was correct that tAt the same time, he was right that the societal implications are sure to be significant as the age of motherless birth approaches. They will not be the same societal implications that were highlighted in Daedalus, however.

Technology developing in increments

Where are we on the road to ectogenesis right now? To begin, progress has definitely been rapid over the last 20-30 years. In the mid 1990s, Japanese investigators succeeded in maintaining goat fetuses for weeks in a machine containing artificial amniotic fluid. At the same time, the recent decades have seen rapid advancement in neonatal intensive care that is pushing back the minimum gestational age from which human fetuses can be kept alive. Today, it is possible for a preterm fetus to survive when removed from the mother at a gestational age of slightly less than 22 weeks. That’s only a little more than halfway through the pregnancy (normally 40 weeks). And while rescuing an infant delivered at such an early point requires sophisticated, expensive equipment and care, the capability continues to increase.

A comprehensive review published by the New York Academy of Sciences three years ago highlights a series of achievements by various research groups using ex vivo (out of the body) uterus environments to support mammalian fetuses early in pregnancy. Essentially, two areas of biotechnology are developing rapidly that potentially can enable ectogenesis in humans, and, along the way, what the authors of the Academy review call partial ectogenesis.

Because a fetus develops substantially with respect to external form and internal organs during the second half of pregnancy, our current capability to deliver and maintain preterm infants actually is a kind of partial ectogenesis. Supported by all of the equipment in the neonatal intensive care unit (NICU), a premature infant continues its development as a normal fetus of the same gestational age would do inside the mother’s uterus, but with one important exception. Inside the womb, oxygenated, nourished blood comes in, and blood carrying waste goes out, through the placenta and umbilical cord. Once delivered, however, a preemie must breathe through its lungs, cleanse the blood with its liver and kidneys, and get nutrition through its gastrointestinal tract.

But because these organ systems, especially the lungs, are not really ready to do their job so early, there is a limit to how early a developing fetus can be transferred from womb to NICU. Known as viability, the limit definitely has been pushed back with special treatments given to the mother prior to delivery and, just after birth, directly into the preemie’s lungs, and with intensive support. But the 22 week gestational age may be around the absolute limit for survival for a fetus that will have to depend on lung-breathing, not to mention other organs, rather than its mother’s nourished blood.

Still, the capability to push back the limit is around the corner. One of the two developing key technologies is the artificial amniotic fluid filled environment that has continued to develop with laboratory animal models since the work with goats in the 1990s. The other area is embryo transfer. Not only can a developing mammal be transferred from the uterus of its own mother to that of a surrogate, but gradually investigators are reproducing the endometrium–the cell layer of the uterus that contains and nourishes the pregnancy–as a cell culture, or an in vitro model. The convergence of these technologies will make it possible to transfer a developing human into a system that includes the placenta and umbilical cord and supplies all consumables (oxygen and food), and removes all waste, directly through the blood.

Thus, survival and continuing development would not depend on the lungs and other organs being ready yet to do their job. Applying such a system to fetus delivered in the middle of pregnancy would constitute real partial ectogenesis. Furthermore, since bypassing the developing, not fully functional organs, stands to improve survival substantially, and might even decrease the costs of extreme premature birth, the movement of the technology from research to clinic is inevitable.

Once that happens, there will be no obstacle against pushing the limit further, toward full ectogenesis. But there will be no obstacle to pushing the limit akin to how lung viability has placed an obstacle to conventional pre-term care. At some point, an in vitro fertilized egg could be planted directly into the artificial womb, with no need for a natural uterus even for the early stages.

Societal implications

An artificial womb may sound futuristic, and in Haldane’s time this may have supported a perception that realizing the technology would go together with controlling the birth rate and eugenics controlling which humans come to life, and thus which genetic traits get passed down to future populations. But today, we could do these things without ectogenesis. We have plenty of contraceptive methods and can sterilize people, or make them more fertile, while pregnancies can be induced with implanted embryos made with in vitro fertilization.

If anyone is working on a eugenics program at present, they can use surrogate mothers and don’t really require an artificial uterus–unless, we imagine a society that routinely, forcefully sterilizes all females, so that whoever has the artificial uterus has a monopoly on reproduction, ectogenesis does not relate particularly to those 1920s issues. Instead, the artificial uterus would simply move the pregnancy outside of the woman’s body. When considering societal consequences, that’s the main factor that we need to keep in mind, and doing so we see that it does relate to many currently controversial issues.

Considering abortion, for instance, while the proposition that a fetus, even an embryo, is a person with a “right to life” is a religious belief that cannot be imposed on everyone else, the main argument for the right to choose is a woman’s right to control her body. If a developing embryo or fetus is not viable and the mother wants it out of her uterus, that’s her right.

But what happens once we have the technology to remove it from her without killing it and let the pregnancy continue in an artificial womb? Already, with NICU technology pushing back the survival limit, the timing of viability affecting the legality of abortion, has been challenged by abortion foes. The prospect of ectogenesis stands to turn the viability issue on its face, and it will be interesting to see where that leads.

While social conservatives might be receptive about what an artificial uterus might do to the abortion paradigm, make no mistake they’d probably not be happy that the technology also stands to make it much easier for male gay couples to have babies. All they’d need is an egg donor; no more need for a surrogate mother to take the embryo into her uterus and carry it for 40 weeks. That’s easier for any gay couple in terms of practicality, waiting periods, and money. The same thing goes for a transgender person wishing to have a child.

Finally, because of the sheer numbers, the artificial uterus could have major implications for heterosexual women with fully functional uteri. Many who want children of their own might prefer to forego pregnancy yet would hesitate to hire a human surrogate. Not only is it expensive, but the surrogate could grow fond of the fetus she’s carrying, so why bother taking the risk?

On the other hand, the mind set could be quite different if the surrogate were a high tech jar. It’s your baby with no worries about competing mothers. I’m not suggesting that all potential mothers would opt for this, but Haldane’s guess might not be so unrealistic in that it might end up being a substantial fraction of the population.
And secondly, I came across an article commemorating the death of Shulamith Firestone, a feminist author from the 70s who advocated for this technology as a means of eliminating what she believed to be the root cause of misogyny (as radical feminists are wont to do), with said root cause being the burden of childbirth. I hadn't heard of Firestone before this, but I found her ideas to be thought provoking and relevant to the subject.


http://io9.com/5939856/rip-futurist-shu ... liberation
Shulamith Firestone, author of the highly influential The Dialectic of Sex, has died at the age of 67. A major figure in the development of cyberfeminism, Firestone will be remembered for her promotion of artificial wombs and other reproductive technologies as a means for women to liberate themselves from biological impositions and patriarchal oppression. She died on August 28 in her Manhattan apartment of natural causes.

Born in Ottawa on January 7, 1945, Firestone was raised in an Orthodox Jewish family in St. Louis, Missouri. During the 1960s she studied fine arts at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago, and moved to New York City in 1967 where she co-founded New York Radical Women, the Redstockings group, and New York Radical Feminists.

In 1970, at the age of 25, Firestone wrote The Dialectic of Sex: The Case for Feminist Revolution — a book that effectively kickstarted the cyberfeminist movement, influencing later thinkers like Joanna Russ (author of "The Female Man"), sci-fi author Joan Slonczweski, and of course, Donna "I'd rather be a cyborg than a goddess" Harraway, author of "The Cyborg Manifesto." To come up with her unique feminist philosophy, Firestone took 19th and 20th century socialist thinking and fused it with Freudian psychoanalysis and the existentialist perspectives of Simone de Beauvoir.

Essentially, Firestone argued that gender inequality was the result of a patriarchal social structure that had been imposed upon women on account of their necessary role as incubators. She argued that pregnancy, childbirth, and child-rearing imposed physical, social, and psychological disadvantages upon women. Firestone believed that the only way for women to free themselves from these biological impositions would be to seize control of reproduction.

To that end, she advocated for the development of cybernetic and assistive reproductive technologies, including artificial wombs, gender selection, and in vitro fertilization (the latter two now being in existence). In addition, she also advocated for the dissemination of contraception, abortion, and state support for child-rearing. It would be through these "revolts" and transformations that women could eliminate the presence of sexual classes. Firestone wrote:
[The] end goal of feminist revolution must be, unlike that of the first feminist movement, not just the elimination of male privilege but of the sex distinction itself: genital differences between human beings would no longer matter culturally. (A reversion to an unobstructed pansexuality Freud's 'polymorphous perversity' - would probably supersede hetero/homo/bi-sexuality.) The reproduction of the species by one sex for the benefit of both would be replaced by (at least the option of) artificial reproduction: children would born to both sexes equally, or independently of. either, however one chooses to look at it; the dependence of the child on the mother (and vice versa) would give way to a greatly shortened dependence on a small group of others in general, and any remaining inferiority to adults in physical strength would be compensated for culturally.
The division of labor (and labor altogether) would be ended through cybernetics, she argued, so that the "tyranny of the biological family would be broken."

Not a fan of traditional biological human reproduction, Firestone described pregnancy as "barbaric," and noted how a friend of hers described labor to "shitting a pumpkin."

Modern feminists have largely turned a blind eye to Firestone and the role of technology in feminist discourse, but her influence can still be seen today in such things as transhumanism and the rise of postgenderist theory.

Soon after the publication of Dialectics, Firestone excused herself from public life and largely disappeared from the scene. In 1998 she published her book, Airless Spaces, in which she detailed her struggles with schizophrenia. Firestone became reclusive in her later years, dying alone in her apartment. She is survived by her mother, two brothers, and two sisters.

So what are people's thoughts on how might such technology affect society once it becomes viable and widespread? Certainly, as the first article says, it'd be a huge boon to any same sex couples, transgender people, and infertile people who want kids.

Not to mention it'd give women who want children the choice of a safe alternative to pregnancy and childbirth, and all the unplesantries, pain and even possible death that comes with it, thereby putting them on equal reproductive terms with men as per Firestone's theory. (Key word being 'choice.' Certainly the option to have children naturally would still exist; in the above-mentioned Vorkosigan saga, something like a quarter of births are still natural in the society where the uterine replicator was invented, though whether this would be an accurate ratio in the real future when ectogenesis is commercially available remains to be seen, of course). I believe it's a good example of how advanced technology can eventually overcome the unfairness of biology and the harshness of nature.
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Re: Ectogenesis and artificial wombs

Post by biostem »

People are paranoid enough about what happens to their non-living valuables when they aren't there to watch them. I can only imagine the kind of security, monitoring, and other such safety measures, people would want, if this type of technology were to be implemented. You'd also want tight control over the quality and composition of nutrients input, not to mention other things like perhaps being able to play music, read to, or otherwise visit your unborn child. It probably wouldn't be covered by insurance, (at least initially), and there'd be tremendous amounts of paperwork in order to protect the natal facility from any wrongdoing. At the very least, multiple redundant backups for the life support systems would be a necessity.

It might have the adverse effect of dehumanizing the process, though, as a couple need not get personally involved in the reproductive process. Heck, via this method, men would be able to have children without women, (they'd just need an egg donor).
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Re: Ectogenesis and artificial wombs

Post by Balrog »

biostem wrote:It might have the adverse effect of dehumanizing the process, though, as a couple need not get personally involved in the reproductive process. Heck, via this method, men would be able to have children without women, (they'd just need an egg donor).
Funny enough that same thing happened vis-à-vis the Clans from BattleTech: artificial gestation, among other crazy things, lead to a break down in the traditional family unit and children are raised in communal units to be super-awesome Social Darwinian warriors aka Trueborn.

Interesting articles BTW, I imagine we aren't that far off from ectogenesis however it will almost certainly be too expensive for any but the wealthy to afford for years after it's introduced, so the "dream" of feminists throwing off the shackles of pregnancy would still be far off. I imagine it would also be used in combination with genetic engineering once that becomes available so that the wealthy don't have to actually carry their "designer babies" but simply provide genetic samples then go jetting off somewhere while their future heirs are grown in a vat. After they're hatched then it's off to the nanny then boarding school as usual, because who has time to be a parent while steering a multi-billion dollar corporation or leeching off said steers(wo)man.

So we'll have a society with a self-perpetuating elite whose children are considered genetically superior to natural-born children, which would lead them to getting preferential treatment in areas like jobs because who wants to hire a worker who's potentially at risk of developing a genetic disease, and who will probably consider themselves superior to the poor sods who weren't artificially born....

Fuckin' hell, damn you BattleTech!
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Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
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Re: Ectogenesis and artificial wombs

Post by Benny the Ball »

Certainly there would be many hurdles, both technologically and socially, along the road towards perfecting ectogenesis, and it'll likely be a long road indeed. I imagine the end result (however far off in the future it may be) would possibly be people owning commercial-grade, easy to use versions of the things inside their own homes capable of mimicing the environment of a real womb well enough to be indistinguishable from the real thing, without having to trust a natal facility with it. Though that would open up a whole new set of issues; presumably there'd be regulations in place of how many kids you're allowed to 'grow,' etc.

Though Balrog's probably right, the dream of a future where all women everywhere won't have to bear children themselves if they don't want to and everyone has access to this technology to create a society full of genetically-engineered perfect humans without regards to class will be wishful thinking for a long time. Still, I believe it's interesting to speculate on how technology might shape the distant future, and exactly what it'll take to get to that point.

I'd be hesitant to label it 'dehumanizing' to it though, considering the harsh toll pregnancy and childbirth puts on the female body, and any supposed dehumanization sounds like a small price to pay for the option to reproduce without it. I do hope to hear what any female board members who've had kids or want to have kids think of a hypothetical ideal situation, i.e. if there was an affordable way to create a perfectly healthy baby with your genetic material outside the womb would they want it. I'd consider their opinions on the subject to be the most valid by far.

Funny Biostem should mention it allowing men to have children without women though, as the Vorkosigan saga has an entire planet full of that.
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Re: Ectogenesis and artificial wombs

Post by bilateralrope »

Benny the Ball wrote:Certainly there would be many hurdles, both technologically and socially, along the road towards perfecting ectogenesis, and it'll likely be a long road indeed. I imagine the end result (however far off in the future it may be) would possibly be people owning commercial-grade, easy to use versions of the things inside their own homes capable of mimicing the environment of a real womb well enough to be indistinguishable from the real thing, without having to trust a natal facility with it. Though that would open up a whole new set of issues; presumably there'd be regulations in place of how many kids you're allowed to 'grow,' etc.
The process of getting the embryo into the artificial wombs would still require skills beyond the average home user. Then there is the cost of a power supply that will not fail, the logistics of supplying the nutrients, getting someone to fix it quickly if something goes wrong, etc. For a device that a couple will only use a few times, then get rid of because they have enough children.

It sounds like keeping a number of these devices in the same facility for couples to rent as required makes a lot more sense than installing one in someone's home, having them use it 2 or 3 times, then having it removed.
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Re: Ectogenesis and artificial wombs

Post by Balrog »

bilateralrope wrote:
Benny the Ball wrote:Certainly there would be many hurdles, both technologically and socially, along the road towards perfecting ectogenesis, and it'll likely be a long road indeed. I imagine the end result (however far off in the future it may be) would possibly be people owning commercial-grade, easy to use versions of the things inside their own homes capable of mimicing the environment of a real womb well enough to be indistinguishable from the real thing, without having to trust a natal facility with it. Though that would open up a whole new set of issues; presumably there'd be regulations in place of how many kids you're allowed to 'grow,' etc.
The process of getting the embryo into the artificial wombs would still require skills beyond the average home user. Then there is the cost of a power supply that will not fail, the logistics of supplying the nutrients, getting someone to fix it quickly if something goes wrong, etc. For a device that a couple will only use a few times, then get rid of because they have enough children.

It sounds like keeping a number of these devices in the same facility for couples to rent as required makes a lot more sense than installing one in someone's home, having them use it 2 or 3 times, then having it removed.
Agreed, only the super-wealthy would bother to have artificial wombs in their actual homes given the costs involved. Far more likely are large installations (I hesitate to call them farms) where large numbers of these wombs are kept, and if you have the money you can rent one for the nine months or so it takes to grow your child. These will most likely be run by for-profit corporations; it is highly unlikely any government would run these ("OMG you spent my tax money on what?!") unless they're secretly building a clone army (in which case we need to find a religious organization to become a quasi-judicial branch of the UN and everything will be complete...)

As far as dehumanizing, on one hand there is something to be said about the special connection a mother has with a human being they carried inside of them, on the other adoption is a thing and many loving families are composed of non-related human beings. It would depend on how the greater society has developed I suppose.
'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
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Re: Ectogenesis and artificial wombs

Post by Broomstick »

Given that a significant number of women attempt birth without anesthesia these days when they have the option of a less painful delivery I'm not sure the "relief from danger and discomfort" argument is going to make natural gestation ever go away entirely. "Get pregnant and give birth" does have a biological drive component, if it didn't we likely wouldn't be here.

That said, it would become an option, like any other "assisted reproduction" technology. I remember when the first "test tube baby" was born, oh my, the hue and cry! But the way things played out most people are still conceived the old fashioned way, with the petri dish being used by the infertile and those wanting to weed out genetic diseases.

I think for a long time ectogenesis will be like that, or like hydroponic vs. dirt farming - an option, probably more expensive, and usually less convenient than the old fashioned natural way of doing things.
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Re: Ectogenesis and artificial wombs

Post by biostem »

I'd hate to think what the results of this technology would be for places like North Korea - grow entire armies of children, indoctrinated from birth, without the hassle of having to rely on actual mothers or fathers, (just the head of state's sperm and whomever's eggs he wanted).
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Re: Ectogenesis and artificial wombs

Post by Bedlam »

biostem wrote:I'd hate to think what the results of this technology would be for places like North Korea - grow entire armies of children, indoctrinated from birth, without the hassle of having to rely on actual mothers or fathers, (just the head of state's sperm and whomever's eggs he wanted).
Not anything you couldn't do already, you just take the kids away from their parents and raise them however you want. The only advantage is if you really want them all to be your kids, and no general social upheaval due to taking all the babies.

Of course unless you can speed grow the kids you've still got he issue you've got to wait almost 20 years until you get the first batch of soldiers and the cost of raising / training them all from birth.
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Re: Ectogenesis and artificial wombs

Post by Simon_Jester »

Benny the Ball wrote:Certainly there would be many hurdles, both technologically and socially, along the road towards perfecting ectogenesis, and it'll likely be a long road indeed. I imagine the end result (however far off in the future it may be) would possibly be people owning commercial-grade, easy to use versions of the things inside their own homes capable of mimicing the environment of a real womb well enough to be indistinguishable from the real thing, without having to trust a natal facility with it.
Personally I'd rather have experts on hand to monitor and maintain the thing. It's like, if you have a vulnerable child who needs to be in something more elaborate and all-surrounding than a pre-natal care unit in order to survive... would you rather that happen in a hospital, or in a big can in your living room?

Unless you're rich enough to have a team of specialized doctors on standby to rush to your home as soon as you hit the panic button, you'd probably want that in the hospital.
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Re: Ectogenesis and artificial wombs

Post by Benny the Ball »

Simon_Jester wrote:Personally I'd rather have experts on hand to monitor and maintain the thing. It's like, if you have a vulnerable child who needs to be in something more elaborate and all-surrounding than a pre-natal care unit in order to survive... would you rather that happen in a hospital, or in a big can in your living room?

Unless you're rich enough to have a team of specialized doctors on standby to rush to your home as soon as you hit the panic button, you'd probably want that in the hospital.
Fair enough, you and everyone else who made this point. I was clearly thinking too far ahead into the future; household uterine replicators that can reliably run themselves are probably just a few steps below having individual houses powered by a micro-fusion reactor in the garage. :P

Another useful application that occurred to me is space colonization, once the technology advances enough that it can be reliably stored on ships or assembled on site, with the idea coming from the movie Intestellar. If I recall correctly, it's how humanity would have been able to have a chance for a new start on a distant planet with such a small expedition, with thousands of genetically diverse fertilized eggs stored on the ship and the first generation being artificially incubated.
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Re: Ectogenesis and artificial wombs

Post by Simon_Jester »

Benny the Ball wrote:Fair enough, you and everyone else who made this point. I was clearly thinking too far ahead into the future; household uterine replicators that can reliably run themselves are probably just a few steps below having individual houses powered by a micro-fusion reactor in the garage. :P
Probably above- one of the requirements would be a very very reliable power supply that can warm or (if necessary) cool the uterine replicator as necessary, that will allow all the monitoring equipment (including an alert to the nearest bunch of specialists) to work very reliably, and so on. Say what you will about the average pregnancy, but a blackout won't cause a miscarriage in and of itself.
Another useful application that occurred to me is space colonization, once the technology advances enough that it can be reliably stored on ships or assembled on site, with the idea coming from the movie Intestellar. If I recall correctly, it's how humanity would have been able to have a chance for a new start on a distant planet with such a small expedition, with thousands of genetically diverse fertilized eggs stored on the ship and the first generation being artificially incubated.
The only trick is that you really need enough adults to raise all the children born from the artificial wombs. Children are effectively helpless until, oh, ten or twelve... and in a technologically advanced environment will be useless for most jobs actually related to survival or raising and rearing other children until eighteen or twenty at least. And a small expeditionary crew chosen for the usual skill set of astronauts won't be able to spare much time to take care of kids.

Basically, bringing children with you does no good unless you're prepared to bring moms, too.
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Re: Ectogenesis and artificial wombs

Post by Anduin »

I had some thoughts on this that I had to share...
Why have children when the governments can do ectogenesis and raise some for their own population?
How much would a human life be worth from then on?

Wouldn't it be a very good opportunity to stay single? Not having any pressure at all to procreate as we know it?
Besides, on the matter of prohibitive costs, governments may not have a choice when their reproduction rates are so low.
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Re: Ectogenesis and artificial wombs

Post by Simon_Jester »

[pauses, takes deep breath]

People want to have children, Anduin. You actively have to go out of your way to stop them, as a rule. You have to create very strong economic incentives to make people not have children, or you have to outright make it illegal.

So people will continue to want children of 'their own,' governments will not have an interest in raising millions of children as wards of the state, and artificial wombs will not be used for that purpose.
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Re: Ectogenesis and artificial wombs

Post by Anduin »

Simon_Jester wrote:[pauses, takes deep breath]

People want to have children, Anduin. You actively have to go out of your way to stop them, as a rule. You have to create very strong economic incentives to make people not have children, or you have to outright make it illegal.

So people will continue to want children of 'their own,' governments will not have an interest in raising millions of children as wards of the state, and artificial wombs will not be used for that purpose.
It was never stated that people could not be allowed to have children, just that it would be an option.

Governments may well use ectogenesis to boost their population whether it be by their own efforts or privatization.
Whatever their choice, they would at least be very inclined to boost their local population through ectogenesis.

Would you rely on a reluctant population to procreate at abysmal replacement rates?
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Re: Ectogenesis and artificial wombs

Post by Simon_Jester »

Anduin wrote:It was never stated that people could not be allowed to have children, just that it would be an option.
Very few governments have shown much interest in making the population be larger. The problem is that just having lots of children in your country is useless, unless you are prepared to pay for raising and educating those children, and building housing for the growing population, and expanding your nation's infrastructure to accomodate their needs. This is very expensive on a per-child basis.

There are easily tens (or hundreds) of thousands of dollars of investment required to turn a newborn baby into a productive citizen. And that's with the parents doing a lot of the actual childcare work in their own spare time... and not even counting any huge expense associated with the ectogenesis process.

Very few governments would willingly spend a hundred billion dollars of tax money to raise a million children to adulthood, in other words.
Governments may well use ectogenesis to boost their population whether it be by their own efforts or privatization.
Whatever their choice, they would at least be very inclined to boost their local population through ectogenesis.

Would you rely on a reluctant population to procreate at abysmal replacement rates?
It would be much easier and cheaper to subsidize parenting to make it more practical for a larger number of couples.

It's not that the population is reluctant to breed in any society. People in developed societies haven't stopped wanting to reproduce at something close to replacement rate. It's that doing so is made very expensive and difficult and most of the financial burden falls on the parents.

Besides, any biological factors that cause a strong desire to NOT reproduce will tend to evolve out of our population within a few generations anyway, now that contraception actually makes it practical for people to decide that.
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Re: Ectogenesis and artificial wombs

Post by K. A. Pital »

Simon_Jester wrote:People in developed societies haven't stopped wanting to reproduce at something close to replacement rate.
No proof has been offered for this statement. Is it just the financial burden? How big is that burden? People in developed societies are not going to starve from having children, that much is certain, and it is likely (outside of the pockets of Anglo-Saxon craziness) the state will subsidize or outright allow the children to have free education, sometimes up to tertiary level.

People in Sub-Saharan Africa are starving, literally. And yet, Sub-Saharn Africa is reproducing at several times the replacement rate.

It is a bit more complicated than 'financial burden'. Capitalism impacts humanity on a deeper level. It atomizes the society, and in this assaults even the primary instincts like reproduction. People in developed societies are unwilling to take even a small dent in their well-being for the sake of reproduction - much less put their lives on the line for children, like the Africans.
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Re: Ectogenesis and artificial wombs

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That is an interesting hypothesis- that social atomization impacts desire to reproduce, and that capitalism is the cause of the atomization.

What would you propose if you were trying to design an experiment to refute this hypothesis? Is there any real country we could look at?
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Re: Ectogenesis and artificial wombs

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If I were refuting it, I would demostrate that the richest nationals of the capitalist world (Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, Luxembourg) with extensive access to cheap or even free high-quality education, which also experience very high divorce rates, and therefore high atomization, maintain a higher fertility rate than typical developed country fertility - i.e. reverse correlation, as the people get wealthier and better cared, they seek to reproduce more, regardless of atomization. Seems, however, not to be the case. Nations which really have the richest citizens, including such ultra-rich enclaves as Luxembourg and Liechtenstein, are at the bottom of the fertility rankings.
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Re: Ectogenesis and artificial wombs

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Could we conversely try to identify which developed societies are least atomized?
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Re: Ectogenesis and artificial wombs

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Well, judging by the divorce rate metric, one could say that Ireland is uncannily low here, compared to the other developed countries, with just 13%. That is very low. It does also seem richer than average, considering wages. I also read that Ireland does not have too many migrants, so whatever skewing they may cause in other countries is just not present in Ireland.

Ireland has a slightly above normal normal replacement fertility (2.1) and the highest crude birth rate in the EU.

So I would assume my hypothesis is at least partially vindicated. Though I am not really sure - wikipedia statistics usually are inaccurate, I need to check the oecd webside.
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Re: Ectogenesis and artificial wombs

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On further reflection, and just so we're on the same page...

Would you mind expanding on what you mean by 'atomization' and how you feel it ties to the divorce rate?
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Re: Ectogenesis and artificial wombs

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Atomization is the disintegration of personal ties between humans, their replacement with formal "contract"-type ties, or even fully impersonal communication. It is the process of annihilation of collective structures (nuclear family, commune, ties between distant relatives). Humans become estranged and only interact as individuals, not as groups. Long-term social ties, especially family ties, are losing value when atomization occurs: household size (family size) is shrinking, divorce rates are rising, marriages start looking more like property-sharing contracts, single-person households are increasing in number, and people have fewer children. There is no strong expectation of care for the elderly on part of the child or children, etc. Divorce rate is just one of the measurements related to this process.
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Re: Ectogenesis and artificial wombs

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Kind of sounds like what Marx was talking about with respect to the products of our labour in a capitalist society. Alienation from what we make, what we produce etc.

I'm probably a mad luddite compared to those who are on a sci-fi forum, based on my opinions. If you look at the way we produce and consume food for example, what we have is nothing less of a miracle, but as I was saying with my botanist scientist friend, it's also a complete aberration to be able to have fresh food year round, in whatever season, and it entails vast expenditure of money and fuel in order to sustain a food infrastucture like we have. If something major should happen, it's unsustainable. As he pointed out, the disassociation of most people in urban environments from the means of production of their food (let alone their transport) leaves most people without needing to know about where their food comes from and how it was grown, which would have been unthinkable even a hundred years ago. As his work is specifically on endangered plant species, he has to justify to people all the time, companies and lay people, why they should care about the floral environment, something that is hard to do to someone who is effectively deaf, dumb and blind to the biodiversity that literally keeps them alive. I think people just don't think hard enough about whether we should be living in the kind of way that we live at all.
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Re: Ectogenesis and artificial wombs

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Noting the obvious danger of technology-related estragement is not luddism, it's more like the sensible approach to progress instead of "whatever technology brings is good". We have to really think about what we do. Some techology does not bring good for the people who are using it.
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