Denial of the African origins of Ancient Egypt?

[Big Triece]

^^ I wish they had a reputation system in place for this forum, because you would certainly get some points from me!

I'm also waiting for Zentei's reply to Egyptologist Robert Bauval, who confirms that our view points on this subject are in fact the truth on the matter. There is no room for misinterpretations, he states that they originally black clearly and pounds that fact into the discussion! Here is the interview again:

[Big Triece]

smh

[Ziggy Stardust]

smh

And you wonder why nobody here is taking you seriously? Here, how about this one? (From The Prince of Egypt):



OMG PRETTY PICTURES!!!111 Screw actually discussing the archaeogenetics of the issue! Let's just post more pretty pictures!

(matter: I will respond later tonight, if I get the chance. I haven't forgotten, nor am I ignoring this.)

[Big Triece]

And you wonder why nobody here is taking you seriously? Here, how about this one?

That post was a follow up on the persistent misrepresentation of ancient Egypt in POP CULTURE which was the theme of Democracyfanboy's post a couple of pages ago.

OMG PRETTY PICTURES!!!111 Screw actually discussing the archaeogenetics of the issue! Let's just post more pretty pictures!

Funny, reading through the thread will show that almost all of my post were pertaining to "archaeogentetic" information.

[matter]

I promised that I was not going to discuss the skin colour of the Ancient Egyptians anymore at the time it was been discussed until the tail-end of the debate so I could concentrate on more important Bio-cultural evidences. Since this debate now seem to have ran its course, I want to
'fulfill' the promise and state my take on the appearance of the majority of the Ancient Egyptians. I will start from an article from the Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt on this issue:

The race and origins of the Ancient Egyptians have been a source of considerable debate.Scholars in the late and early 20th centuries rejected any considerations of the Egyptians as black Africans by defining the Egyptians either as non-African(1.e Near Easterners or Indo-Aryan), or as members of a separate brown(as opposed to a black)race, or as a mixture of lighter-skinned peoples with black Africans.In the later half of the 20th century, Afrocentric scholars have countered this Eurocentric and often racist perspective by characterizing the Egyptians as black and African...Physical anthropologists are increasingly concluding that racial definitions are the culturally defined product of selective perception and should be replaced in biological terms by the study of populations and clines. Consequently, any characterization of race of the ancient Egyptians depend on modern cultural definitions, not on scientific study. Thus, by modern American standards it is reasonable to characterize the Egyptians as 'blacks'[i.e in a social sense] while acknowledging the scientific evidence for the physical diversity of Africans.
People pg27 and 28{in Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt(ed)Donald Reyford, Oxford University Press, 2001}

The article rejects the Biological Concept of 'Race' but says that it is REASONABLE in a social sense to describe the Ancient Egyptians as 'Black' Africans and points out the 'Eurocentric and often racist' reasons which made some early Egyptologists go out of their way to deny this(based on concepts like Dynastic Race, Hamitic peoples, Mediterranean Race, Western Asia origin of the Egyptians etc).

On the origin of the Early Egyptians, the article says:

"The evidence also points to linkages to
other northeast African peoples, not
coincidentally approximating the modern
range of languages closely related to
Egyptian in the Afro-Asiatic group
(formerly called Hamito-Semetic). These
linguistic similarities place ancient
Egyptian in a close relationship with
languages spoken today as far west as
Chad, and as far south as Somalia.
Archaeological evidence also strongly
supports an African origin. A widespread
northeastern African cultural assemblage,
including distinctive multiple barbed
harpoons and pottery decorated with
dotted wavy line patterns, appears during
the early Neolithic (also known as the
Aqualithic, a reference to the mild
climate of the Sahara at this time).
Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this
time resembles early Egyptian
iconography. Strong connections
between Nubian (Sudanese) and
Egyptian material culture continue in
later Neolithic Badarian culture of Upper
Egypt. Similarities include black-topped
wares, vessels with characteristic
ripple-burnished surfaces, a special
tulip-shaped vessel with incised and
white-filled decoration, palettes, and
harpoons...
Other ancient Egyptian practices show
strong similarities to modern African
cultures including divine kingship, the
use of headrests, body art, circumcision,
and male coming-of-age rituals, all
suggesting an African substratum or
foundation for Egyptian civilization.."
Source: Donald Redford (2001) The
Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt,
Volume 3. Oxford University Press. p. 28

The above is critical because since the Early Ancient Egyptians are indigenous Northeast Africans(especially from the Eastern Sahara) as almost every Egyptologists now assert, long-term residence of populations in northeast Africa, an environment that is very hot and dry would have favoured some adaptations-i. tropical/supertropical adaptation in terms of limb proportions ii. had skin colour intensification iii. have high nasal bridge elevation. Other Northeast Africans include Somalians, Eritreans, Nubians, Darfurians, Nuer, Dinkas, Toubous, Beja, Oromo, Omotics etc. These traits are common among these populations, though there are variations.

The geographic distribution of certain traits, like skin color, is shaped in part by selective pressures emanating from the natural environment. The concentration of melanin seen in the skin acts to regulate vitamin D and folic acid levels and also acts as protection against the potentially damaging effects of the solar radiation (Robins 1991). Nasal bridge elevation and elongation are correlated with the humidity of inhaled air (Glanville 1969). These nasal characteristics would be more similar to people in similarly dry environments in the Americas and Europe, rather than other hot, but moist areas in Africa. In northeastern Africa, the air is very dry and solar radiation very intense. Long-term residents of this area are likely to have a higher concentration of melanin (darker skin color) and nasal bridge elevation and elongation as a result of an in situ micro-evolutionary response to the selective forces of the hot, dry, local environment. Such an interpretation that posits in situ development and maintenance of such features is in contrast to earlier theories that attribute all such traits to gene flow from other areas (Brace et al. 1993).
A Bioarchaeological Perspective on State Formation in the Nile Valley by Michele Buzon,University of Santa Barbara 2004

As put succinctly by Brace:

In this regard, it is interesting to note that the limb proportions of the Predynastic
Naqada people in Upper Egypt are reported to be “super-negroid,” meaning that
the distal segments are elongated in the fashion of tropical Africans...skin color intensification and distal limb elongation is apparent wherever people have been long-term residents of the tropics
Brace 1993

So not only would the Early Egyptians being Supertropically/tropically Adapted, even though most of Egypt itself is not in the tropics, add to the evidence that they mostly came from the 'south' as also supported by other lines of evidence(archaeology, linguistics,climate,cultural, biological etc) but it also mean that they also had a high skin colour intensification(i.e darker skin colour ). ALSO SINCE EVERY TROPICALLY/SUPERTROPICALLY ADAPTED POPULATIONS, ESPECIALLY IN AFRICA, ARE ALL DARK SKINNED AND THE ANCIENT EGYPTIANS ARE THEMSELVES SUPERTROPICALLY/TROPICALY ADAPTED, THE ONUS IS ON THOSE PEOPLE SAYING THEY CANNOT BE CALLED BLACK TO SHOW WHY THEY SHOULD BE THE ONLY EXAMPLE THAT DEFILED THIS TREND.




PS: My definition of a 'Black' African population is any dark skinned indigenous population- ancient Egyptians being, in the main, an indigenous Northeast African population that were tropically adapted and certainly dark-skinned would therefore be 'Black'. As I have stated here variously , I do not also believe in Biological 'race', so my believe that the Ancient Egyptians were 'Black' Africans is only in a social sense(IDENTITY). There is variation in this dark skin as expected and seen across Africa which would have hinged on Brown(light brown like Khoisans, reddish-brown, chocolate-brown,copper-coloured brown,bronzed-brown,very dark brown like Dinkas, high yellow like some Nigerians etc). It is extremely important to note that indigenous Africans are DIVERSE including in skin colour, and that most of them are not literally Black in skin but have various ranges of colour that hinges on Brown even in same population. A simple google of a Nollywood(Nigerian) film will simply bear this out.

Finally, let me say that there are very many ancient Egyptian (naturally or unnaturally) mummified skins available for histological analysis but it is curious that little such studies have been done(or is it reported?). Am aware of only 2 studies done: the 1st by Cheik Anta Diop and the most recent and rigorous study by a German team on the nobles buried in the Theban necropolis during the New Kingdom. As expected, the analysis show them to be dark-skinned.

Source: Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis
of mummified soft tissues. Biotech Histochem. 2005 Jan-Feb;80(1):7-13.(see text in this post: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 5#p3481249)

[cadbrowser]

Ok...I've read all 29 pages. I would seriously like that 40 hours of my life back.

[D.Turtle]

Ok...I've read all 29 pages. I would seriously like that 40 hours of my life back.

Out of interest: What do you take away think after all that reading?

[cadbrowser]

Well, it seems to me that there is no denial of the African origins of Ancient Egypt here on SDN. There seems to be some confustion as to Big T's interpretation of some of his resources in that he is pushing for a point of view that isn't necessarily held by whom he has been quoting.

The other thing that is annoying is Big T's apparent lack of understanding as to the moronic posting of pictures from random ass places on the web...even when corrected he just put MORE up. Utterly laughable.

In all seriousness, the point of the matter is that it is the OP's position that Egyptians were primarly DARK black (increased melanin)...albiet he, and several other posters who hold the same position, outright appear to dismiss any OTHER variant in skin tone within the same community during that time as plausible. Which is stupid.

Nobody here on SDN that I have witnessed holds to any Eurocentric view of Egyptian origins...LONG discredited.

But yet, Matter and Big T KEEP POUNDING AWAY at the Egyptian BLACKNESS. So I take away that really the OP didn't learn anything and was here to push and shove out an agenda that nobody seriously disputed.

[Big Triece]

There seems to be some confustion as to Big T's interpretation of some of his resources in that he is pushing for a point of view that isn't necessarily held by whom he has been quoting.

Such as? Which studies, and please be specific.

In all seriousness, the point of the matter is that it is the OP's position that Egyptians were primarly DARK black (increased melanin)...albiet he, and several other posters who hold the same position, outright appear to dismiss any OTHER variant in skin tone within the same community during that time as plausible.

So how exactly do some of the posters who felt compelled to argue that the ancient Egyptians must have had the lightest skin tone seen within the range of tropically adapted African populations, fair in your analysis? How varied in skin tone would you suggest an ancient population to be, which was comprised of Nilo Saharan and various Horn African populations? We have also stated endlessly throughout this discussion that it was very likely to have been some people from the Middle East in parts of Lower Egypt during the formative period. What we have pretty much proven however is that all and all both populations (Lower and Upper Egyptians) were indigenous Africans with biological and cultural affinities rooting them to populations further south. Meaning that even likely presence of non Africans in Lower Egypt during the formative period was miniscule and that the populations could not be defined as being the product of admixture.

That being said you are correct, we maintain our stance that early ancient Egypt was a dark skinned {i.e. black} African civilization.

Nobody here on SDN that I have witnessed holds to any Eurocentric view of Egyptian origins...LONG discredited.

I find it amazing that not one of you objective, free thinking individuals has come to criticize the disaster of an argument that Thanas has put forward in this discussion. Thanas has been regarded at times as a "scholar" by some posters in this thread, yet his outright fallacies have yet to be checked by anyone of you. I mean look at the crap that he is writing on the first page of this thread (which he has yet to amend), regarding ancient Egypt as apart of a Mediterranean continuum with little to no connection or kinship to black Africa. He has been discredited time and time again, yet he persist with his delusions. And in the mist of several posters debunking his delusions, I am told that I am arguing against an "imaginary boogeyman", and that everyone agrees on the basics, I am just looking for an argument...seriously?

After reading the dialogue of the earlier thread on this subject entitled "Debunking the "Egyptians were black" myth", I'd sonay that there was an almost radical change in views expressed by certain members on this board on this particular subject. Broomstick for one went from arguing that there was "some black Egyptians" and that only the 25th Dynasty was unquestionably black, to conceding the fact that vast majority of early Egyptians were black in this thread.

But yet, Matter and Big T KEEP POUNDING AWAY at the Egyptian BLACKNESS.

Ancient Egypt aka "Kemet" was black plain and simple. Some people in our society just can't swallow that pill for obvious reasons. None the less those stragglers can be left to rot in their own bitter juices as mainstream academia is now finally beginning to come to terms with this fact; see here.

[cadbrowser]

Such as? Which studies, and please be specific.

Um no, I'm not cycling through this entire thread to point them out. They've already been pointed out. You continue to ignore and keep posting the same drivel.

So how exactly do some of the posters who felt compelled to argue that the ancient Egyptians must have had the lightest skin tone seen within the range of tropically adapted African populations, fair in your analysis?

Are you really that fucking stupid?

That is not what was being said you dishonest prick. What has been said over and over again is that there is no compelling evidence as of yet that cannot rule out variation in skin tones within the Egyptian culture. It is still being debated. NOBODY is saying that they aren't Black...so who really gives a fuck just HOW black they are? ONLY YOU!

I find it amazing that not one of you objective, free thinking individuals has come to criticize the disaster of an argument that Thanas has put forward in this discussion. Thanas has been regarded at times as a "scholar" by some posters in this thread, yet his outright fallacies have yet to be checked by anyone of you. I mean look at the crap that he is writing on the first page of this thread (which he has yet to amend), regarding ancient Egypt as apart of a Mediterranean continuum with little to no connection or kinship to black Africa. He has been discredited time and time again, yet he persist with his delusions. And in the mist of several posters debunking his delusions, I am told that I am arguing against an "imaginary boogeyman", and that everyone agrees on the basics, I am just looking for an argument...seriously?

Ok...I reread his statement on the first page; my understanding is he was talking about Egypt as a whole during their time AS Egypt...which had large influences tied to Mediterranean cultures. You are arguing BEFORE they became Egypt...with origins if I'm not mistaken. I don't see anything fallacious about his comment.

Thus, what people are disputing is not that Egypt is of african origin, what they are disputing is that Egypt can be claimed exclusively to be of African Origin, that the accomplishments of Egpyt belong to some "Greater African heritage" and that Egypt can serve as some poster child for the success of a "black state". What people dispute is the embellishment of Egypt as some sort of attempt on behalf of some zealous afrocentrists to go and say "Hahahah, you white people would never have had anything had it not been for black people, like Egypt", thereby missing the point that the Egyptians themselves did not think of themselves as Africans.


EDIT: Note 2: Keita himself uses the word afroasiatic when describing Egypt, which is a much more fitting term than any other for the population of Egypt.

Apparently Big T, this flew way over your head.

After reading the dialogue of the earlier thread on this subject entitled "Debunking the "Egyptians were black" myth", I'd sonay that there was an almost radical change in views expressed by certain members on this board on this particular subject. Broomstick for one went from arguing that there was "some black Egyptians" and that only the 25th Dynasty was unquestionably black, to conceding the fact that vast majority of early Egyptians were black in this thread.

You ass clown...that is NOT what he said. Did you not think I'd read it? Such egotistic lying!

Actually, there is little doubt some ancient Egyptians were what we would call black. There is also little doubt that some of them were what we would call "white". Many more were of mixed ancestry.

At least one Egyptian dynasty was, unequivocally, from south of Egypt proper and undoubtedly had a predominantly sub-Saharan appearance. Equally certain there were other dynasties from further north who were not.

He is saying the same goddamn thing Thanas is saying.

Ancient Egypt aka "Kemet" was black plain and simple. Some people in our society just can't swallow that pill for obvious reasons. None the less those stragglers can be left to rot in their own bitter juices as mainstream academia is now finally beginning to come to terms with this fact; see here.

I don't think you understand what "kemet" really signifies.

Keep pounding away...pound pound pound

[LaCroix]

I don't think you understand what "kemet" really signifies.

Keep pounding away...pound pound pound

Oh, now I get it -
He's ignoring that km.t is only one part of the full name of kmi-ta-Mer-t or kmi—iAt and proposing they used km.t to refer to their skin colour?

And I was wondering why he always insisted in this term...

[cadbrowser]

That I cannot be sure of with regards to Big T...but it does appear that way.

'km' is the hieroglyph that means black.

'km.t' is theorized to define the black fertile soil of the Nile Delta.

I can recall several times other posters telling him it's a nonsensical reference to what he is attemting to POUND into us (ewww...that almost didn't sound right).

EDIT: Curious...is this STILL the only forum Big T has posted to?

[Big Triece]

Um no, I'm not cycling through this entire thread to point them out.

You cannot do so because you do not know what you are talking about. Your claim is baseless and relies on nothing more than the baseless assertions being made of some other disgruntled posters. .

That is not what was being said you dishonest prick. What has been said over and over again is that there is no compelling evidence as of yet that cannot rule out variation in skin tones within the Egyptian culture.

Here is Big T's statement in regards to the skin tone of the ancient Egyptians, which has been maintained since page one:

What Keita means by 'local' is Northeast African (Ethiopian, Somali, Beja, Sudanese, ect) all of these populations tend to have light to dark reddish brown to jet black skin color. Rather or not you want to consider that "black" is entirely up to you and your standards for the meaning of the term. Keita however states in his lecture that based on ecological principals the ancient Egyptians would have been dark skinned, how dark he did not say. In an email exchange he did however states that though he cannot empiracally prove this the model skin color for early ancient Egypt would likely have been the Upper Egyptian/Nubian skin tone. This makes sense based on what the biological evidence indicates about the population.

I have stated that there is no empiracle evidence as to what their exact skin tone may generally have been. I state that considering the fact that the ancient Egyptians were tropically adapted and descended from various Northeast African populations (who vary in skin tone) they were likely within the range of these populations (which is what Keita stated in an email to Pharaoh Mentuhotep), which would mean that they were "dark skinned". However just leaving their description as "dark skinned" (as Keita states in his lecture) was not acceptable to some people such as Broomstick, who felt the need to argue that their range of skin tones was likely the lightest. Other baseless assertions were being made on Broomstick's part such as there being a gradient of skin tones from south to north during early Dynastic times. That baseless assertion is what lead to the dilemma over skin tone.

]Ok...I reread his statement on the first page; my understanding is he was talking about Egypt as a whole during their time AS Egypt...which had large influences tied to Mediterranean cultures. You are arguing BEFORE they became Egypt...with origins if I'm not mistaken. I don't see anything fallacious about his comment.

You defending Thanas is futile. He has attempted to argue that the people who have inhabited the land known as Egypt formed apart of a Mediterranean continuum since Pre-historic times (even referencing studies which clearly did not understand), and his persistent ignorance has been called out by several posters in this thread. That being said no one denies that the ancient Egyptians began to adopt cultural traits and practices from the foreign lands that they conquered in the Mediterranean (and visa verse) throughout Pharonic times, but rather that the African cultural foundation of Kemet had remained in place and dominant from first Dynasty to the last. See here:

Apparently Big T, this flew way over your head.

As I stated ancient Egypt was a black African civilization, and if that is the first thought to come to Thanas's mind when it is shown as such, then that IMO speaks more about his attitude to towards black people than anything else. He comes off with as having a huge boulder on his shoulder.

He is saying the same goddamn thing Thanas is saying.

Broomstick is a she.

I don't think you understand what "kemet" really signifies.

No I don't think that YOU and some others understand that I have routinely refered to it as 'Kemet', because "Kemet' was the name that the ancient Kemetians named their civilization. Referring to it as such is an attempt to put "Egypt" back into it's proper and original African context. "Egypt" is the European (Greek) name given to the land now. As far as the meaning of Kemet, it has been discussed by professor Ossama Abdel Meguid and he states that in referred to the people along with the other things mentioned in a collective sense.

[cadbrowser]

You cannot do so because you do not know what you are talking about.

LMAO...I haven't heard that line since 2nd grade. First you quote mine me, then you lie about me. Fuck you!

I have stated that there is no empiracle evidence as to what their exact skin tone may generally have been.



As I stated ancient Egypt was a black African civilization...

Ok...does ANYONE else see ANYTHING wrong with this?


Jesus fucking H Christ! This is worse that arguing the value of pi with a fundie!

As I stated ancient Egypt was a black African civilization, and if that is the first thought to come to Thanas's mind when it is shown as such, then that IMO speaks more about his attitude to towards black people than anything else. He comes off with as having a huge boulder on his shoulder.

No it wasn't you fucking moron. That was one of the LAST paragraphs from his FIRST post on the FIRST page that you bitched and whined about. Funny how you resort to insuating someone being a racist.

Broomstick is a she.

Oh for fuck's sake. Really...really? So what! If she has an issue she can come to me about it.

"Kemet' was the name that the ancient Kemetians named their civilization.

'km.t' is a name given to a heiroglyphic based on the deciphering of the Rosetta Stone (Heiroglyph -> Coptic -> GREEK). Any statement indicating it's actual phonetic sounds is pure conjecture and as I understand it based on Greek phonetics anyway.

[Lord Zentei]

HAHAHA! The thread rises from its tomb again.

No, I'm not interested in getting into the spirit of things again, "Big Triece" is a moron, and "matter" refuses to acknowledge data he doesn't agree with on the flimsy pretext that he needs to sign up for a journal in order to see it - then goes off on a sanctimonious rant about netiquette when people lose patience with him.

But regardless:

And I was wondering why he always insisted in this term...

Yeah, that's the meat of it. Misapplication of terminology to give false weight to one's bullshit position.

After reading the dialogue of the earlier thread on this subject entitled "Debunking the "Egyptians were black" myth", I'd sonay that there was an almost radical change in views expressed by certain members on this board on this particular subject. Broomstick for one went from arguing that there was "some black Egyptians" and that only the 25th Dynasty was unquestionably black, to conceding the fact that vast majority of early Egyptians were black in this thread.

That's only the case if you persistently assume that everyone other than yourself also maintains a black-white view of the situation (if you'll pardon the expression).

I have stated that there is no empiracle evidence as to what their exact skin tone may generally have been. <SNIP>

You've consistently claimed that the Ancient Egyptians were "Black African", and consistently presented bullshit to support this claim.

As I stated ancient Egypt was a black African civilization, and if that is the first thought to come to Thanas's mind when it is shown as such, then that IMO speaks more about his attitude to towards black people than anything else. He comes off with as having a huge boulder on his shoulder.

Holy shit! This post contains so much irony that it risks collapsing under its own weight and forming a "black" hole. Someone get CERN on this, stat! We could learn stuff here.

No I don't think that YOU and some others understand that I have routinely refered to it as 'Kemet', because "Kemet' was the name that the ancient Kemetians named their civilization. Referring to it as such is an attempt to put "Egypt" back into it's proper and original African context. "Egypt" is the European (Greek) name given to the land now. As far as the meaning of Kemet, it has been discussed by professor Ossama Abdel Meguid and he states that in referred to the people along with the other things mentioned in a collective sense.

Ah, so: you're misrepresenting the etymology to give false weight to your claims. What a shock.

"Kemet" means "Black Land". "Black", as in a reference to the fertile black soil. This is to distinguish it from "Deshret", the "Red Land", i.e. the wasteland that surrounds the fertile Nile valley and delta. It does not mean "Land of the Blacks", since "Deshret" does not mean "Land of the Reds" (and who would they be, anyhow?).

The Egyptians called themselves "remetch en Kermet", i.e. the People of the Black Land, not The Blacks; in other words, they were named for the land, not the other way around. And the land was named for the soil which was the foundation of Egypt's good fortune. Sort of like the Ukraine being called "Black Earth Country".

But perhaps Ukrainians used to be "black" too? Holy shit!

[Big Triece]

Thanks for your valuable contribution to the dialogue of this thread.

[Big Triece]

You've consistently claimed that the Ancient Egyptians were "Black African", and consistently presented bullshit to support this claim.

Dude just shut up! Every single desperate point that you've attempted to make disputing this clear fact has been battered beyond despair. As if Matter's post at the top of the page doesn't contain enough authoritative evidence proving that they were clearly black Africans. Only a desperate heavily indenial FOOL would argue otherwise at this point. Though our dispute over minor points had turned into a flame war, this is something that even Broomstick grudgingly agreed upon.

Ah, so: you're misrepresenting the etymology to give false weight to your claims. What a shock

Ok let's try this again: professor Ossama Abdel Meguid states in this workshop lecture that the word Kemet refers to the people as black as well as everything else that you've mentioned. While you're at it watch the other lectures, read the "Black to Kemet" section as well as the plethora of information given on the section of the Fitzwilliam's museum's official website that they've clearly devoted to showing Egypt as the black civilization that it was. Please get a clue!

PS: Call it another one of my odd Boogey man conspiracy theories, but in all honesty I think that the reason why this thread will not die, is because some of these posters cannot let their intellectual ass whipping stand and are putting some members up to making ridiculous statements to conjure up yet another frivolous argument. This is a reoccurring pattern with this thread. Unless new evidence surfaces which will tilt the disproportionate weight scale of supporting data then there is nothing really to discuss here.

[cadbrowser]

HAHAHA! The thread rises from its tomb again.

I couldn't help it...I wanted to see more pretty pictures of the blackest black blacks that were the origins of Egypt...er Kermet...er; dammit; Kemet...aka km.t. You know, because pics from the web are the most valid scientific finding there is.

Thanks for your valuable contribution to the dialogue of this thread.

Thank you for conceeding to each of my points.


See...see! I can quotemine and lie too!

PS: Call it another one of my odd Boogey man conspiracy theories, but in all honesty I think that the reason why this thread will not die, is because some of these posters cannot let their intellectual ass whipping stand and are putting some members up to making ridiculous statements to conjure up yet another frivolous argument. This is a reoccurring pattern with this thread. Unless new evidence surfaces which will tilt the disproportionate weight scale of supporting data then there is nothing really to discuss here.

BAAAAAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA..."intellectual ass whipping"...wow, I want some of that same shit you're smoking!

I posted because I felt like being a dick...bending the rules in the process (yeah, possibly...mods can spank me later over it if they so choose ). I honestly didn't think anyone would ask me questions...probably testing the validity of my claim that I did in fact read 29 pages of worthless afrocentristic rantings...but they did ask. I posted my opinion and summation (very quick mind you).

Oh quite crying BT, here...take this tampon and use it for your mangina...mmm k? There ya go.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I'm still saying, Keita is alive, y'all could just call him or email and ask him directly.

[cadbrowser]

Well, get on it Chewie!

[Spoonist]

Hi shit for brains - remember me? Why I ask is because none of this drivel you try on cadbrowser is new. I've covered it repeatedly over this thread.

How varied in skin tone would you suggest an ancient population to be, which was comprised of Nilo Saharan and various Horn African populations? .

All so called afroasiatic genes are from horners. Americas, euroland, asia to australia - all horners. So within that genepool lies the potential for all human diversity we see outside of africa today. Top that of with the diversity of geography of the sahara, the atlas, the magreb, the tibesti, the bab-el-mandeb, the nile delta,etc. For you to claim that there was no diversity is contradicting Keita, your main source. For instance here, read page 200 to 203 where he talks about such diversity.
http://wysinger.homestead.com/badari.pdf
Pointed out to you in p1-5 then again p8-12 then again around p16 and again around p21+.
See also the posts by EgalitarianJay on his return.
Tropical adaptation and skintone varied. But still, according to your version of ignorant american jargon, then yes they would still all be "black".

We have also stated endlessly throughout this discussion that it was very likely to have been some people from the Middle East in parts of Lower Egypt during the formative period. .

Nope, for some pages in the middle you claimed otherwise. Which I pointed out to you.
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 0#p3611130
You didn't understand how it made you look back then either.

What we have pretty much proven however is that all and all both populations (Lower and Upper Egyptians) were indigenous Africans with biological and cultural affinities rooting them to populations further south.

In which compass point would you say the sahara and the maghreb is compared to the El-Badari region?
http://egyptopia.com/Map+of+El+Badari_3 ... 54_en.html
And yes that is a rhetorical question, not meant for you to really grasp the significance of so don't bother replying. Instead for the audience who might actually be interested in ancient egypt check out the arrows in the vid at this link
http://www.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/dept/an ... op2p2.html
watch it from 13:18 to approx 15:08 if you don't want to bother with the whole thing...
but specifically the slide visible at 14:04 and what the speaker says between 14:04 and 14:21.
You might also recognize the speaker...
Cross reference that to my post in the link two quotes above and you can see what I was refering to back then, some 20 pages ago, which was of course completely missed by littlebrain. He's still talking like as if he agrees with the man...
Around 39-40 min he goes through the concept of some africans looking like euros, and specifically In 40:10 the man even refers to nordic race theory, a reference which shitforbrains couldn't grasp in relation to his Jim Crow look on "black".
His 40:50 to 41:19 speach is almost ironically aimed at people like limpdick.

Meaning that even likely presence of non Africans in Lower Egypt during the formative period was miniscule and that the populations could not be defined as being the product of admixture. .

Wasn't it you who agreed with matter that after 15k years outside of africa you were still african if you moved back in?
Again rhetorical, don't bother.

I mean look at the crap that he is writing on the first page of this thread (which he has yet to amend), regarding ancient Egypt as apart of a Mediterranean continuum with little to no connection or kinship to black Africa. He has been discredited time and time again, yet he persist with his delusions. And in the mist of several posters debunking his delusions, I am told that I am arguing against an "imaginary boogeyman", and that everyone agrees on the basics, I am just looking for an argument...seriously?

I've pointed this out to you over five times now starting with p3:
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 5#p3483405
YOU were not clear enough, so HE responded to dynastic egypt, YOU then changed the meaning of the OP to pre-dynastic, then YOU tried to imply that his post was in contradiction to the OP.
For you to still have a hardon for that post after all this has been repeatedly pointed out to you speaks volumes in regards to my la mancha reference in that same post back on p3.
And yes you are arguing against an imaginary boogeyman. A hivemind that all think alike. You started doing that vs me and I pointed it out to you as early as p2.
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 5#p3483125
tl;dr
you are an idiot with paranoid delusions

Ancient Egypt aka "Kemet" was black plain and simple. Some people in our society just can't swallow that pill for obvious reasons. None the less those stragglers can be left to rot in their own bitter juices as mainstream academia is now finally beginning to come to terms with this fact; see here.

From that site:
"Kemet was one of the names given to Egypt by its ancient indigenous inhabitants. In a modern context the term Kemet has become associated with placing Egypt in its African cultural context. There are many links between ancient Egyptian and modern African cultures, such as headrests and hairstyles like the side lock. This and other evidence support the idea that it was an African culture in addition to being geographically in Africa.
This exhibition invites the viewer to consider the appearance of the people of Kemet around 3000 years ago and to ask the question: ‘Were the ancient Egyptians Black?’as we use the term in Britain today."
It's like shitforbrains read it and simply don't grasp the contextualizing of different concepts. Or that we actually are scientifically literate in contrast to him.

Call it another one of my odd Boogey man conspiracy theories, but in all honesty I think that the reason why this thread will not die, is because some of these posters cannot let their intellectual ass whipping stand and are putting some members up to making ridiculous statements to conjure up yet another frivolous argument. This is a reoccurring pattern with this thread.

Oh, so since I was there on p1 and is still here some 29 pages ago then I must be the HIVEMASTER muhahahahahahahaha*cough*hihi, then thanas must be my puppet and any further prussian oppression is the result of the lion of the north's oppression of the southern provinces. Eh, sorry back to reality, well almost at least since we are talking about shitforbrains delusions.
The reoccurring pattern is you deliberately picking a fight where there is none by deliberately misrepresenting your sources. And the worst part is that you don't even realise it, because where you come from you would have physically assaulted any who disagreed with you by now....

[Spoonist]

I'm still saying, Keita is alive, y'all could just call him or email and ask him directly.

When he says things like
"i would dare to say that within the nile valley ... the nile quarter ... supersaharan africa there has always been those who were lighter skin and straighter hair...from 60 000 years ago"
"incidentally skin color can flip back and forth from an evolutionary point of view, we now know, every 15 000 years or so ..."
"I don't define an african or the african, there is a matrix of variability which constitutes a discription of an african reality..."

Then I don't think that shitforbrains would like to have such a discussion. His paranoid delusions wouldn't simply take that in.

See the vid linked above from 41:50 onwards during question time...

[The Duchess of Zeon]

An interesting article on how blonde hair and other stereotypically "european" features can evolve independently of European genes in populations without any European admixture which are very dark-skinned. I think it's worthwhile to consider that variation from stereotypically Bantu or sub-Saharan features doesn't alter the fact of a 100% African origin for the ancient Egyptians in any sense.

[Lord Zentei]

You've consistently claimed that the Ancient Egyptians were "Black African", and consistently presented bullshit to support this claim.

Dude just shut up! Every single desperate point that you've attempted to make disputing this clear fact has been battered beyond despair. As if Matter's post at the top of the page doesn't contain enough authoritative evidence proving that they were clearly black Africans. Only a desperate heavily indenial FOOL would argue otherwise at this point. Though our dispute over minor points had turned into a flame war, this is something that even Broomstick grudgingly agreed upon.

You are a delusional idiot who is desperately trying to project his own failings upon others.

Ah, so: you're misrepresenting the etymology to give false weight to your claims. What a shock

Ok let's try this again: professor Ossama Abdel Meguid states in this workshop lecture that the word Kemet refers to the people as black as well as everything else that you've mentioned. While you're at it watch the other lectures, read the "Black to Kemet" section as well as the plethora of information given on the section of the Fitzwilliam's museum's official website that they've clearly devoted to showing Egypt as the black civilization that it was. Please get a clue!

I've already pointed out why that is bullshit: the grammar of "remetch en Kemet" would be all wrong.

PS: Call it another one of my odd Boogey man conspiracy theories, but in all honesty I think that the reason why this thread will not die, is because some of these posters cannot let their intellectual ass whipping stand and are putting some members up to making ridiculous statements to conjure up yet another frivolous argument. This is a reoccurring pattern with this thread. Unless new evidence surfaces which will tilt the disproportionate weight scale of supporting data then there is nothing really to discuss here.

That's not your only odd Boogey man conspiracy theory, that's for sure.

[Lord Zentei]

I'm still saying, Keita is alive, y'all could just call him or email and ask him directly.

That's already been done. EgalitarianJay did it way back here: linka.

<snip>

Keita's position is that Ancient Egypt arose in Africa as an indigenous development and its people had biological and cultural connections to its neighbors to the South as well as West and East which would include the Levant and the Maghreb as well as Sudan and the Horn of Africa. I respect Keita for being as objective a scholar as any I have encountered and believe that answers on this subject probably won't stretch beyond his current position.

<snip>

So, in other words, Keita's position is that Ancient Egypt was an African civilization with a heterogenous population.