"Rape Culture": The discussion

[Scrib]

It sounds like there was more to the conversation in the locker room aside from them talking about how the female student council member was hot. I can't imagine that leading to all the hub-bub, unless they were making rape jokes and the like.

Was it this case?

It begins with Tremblay, who writes that the “president will suck me off in her office chair and after I will fuck her in the ass on Pat’s desk.” He then clarifies that this is in reference to Roy.

“Someone punish her with their shaft,” says Larochelle.

The conversation turns to doubts about Roy’s city of origin, before Giroux remarks that “if you fuck Anne-Marie, I will definitely buy you a beer.” Marquis says he’ll “get a 24 for Bart if he does it.” The documented part of the conversation ends with two of the men debating whether Roy has a sexually transmitted infection.

Yeah...

[Guardsman Bass]

I guess that's not . . . quite rapey, but still pretty unpleasant.

[Scrib]

A feminist would easily make the trivial leap from sex-as-domination/degradation to rape culture. Or they'd deny that a leap even really existed.

[Simon_Jester]

They'd have a point.

[Eleas]

I guess that's not . . . quite rapey, but still pretty unpleasant.

Dude, that's pretty fuckin' rapey.

A feminist would easily make the trivial leap from sex-as-domination/degradation to rape culture. Or they'd deny that a leap even really existed.

Oh yes, and that would be a horrible inference. No, I think we must all agree with Scrib on the fact that clearly, the unambiguous context of the conversation was that the sex would be entirely consensual on her part.

[Dr. Trainwreck]

A feminist would easily make the trivial leap from sex-as-domination/degradation to rape culture. Or they'd deny that a leap even really existed.

Dude, you don't even need the leap. The perception of sex as domination is the core of rape culture.

[Alyrium Denryle]

A feminist would easily make the trivial leap from sex-as-domination/degradation to rape culture. Or they'd deny that a leap even really existed.

Explain how, exactly, sex-as-domination is not extremely rapey? How the hell is talking about punishing someone with their shaft not rapey?

[Scrib]

I guess that's not . . . quite rapey, but still pretty unpleasant.

Dude, that's pretty fuckin' rapey.

A feminist would easily make the trivial leap from sex-as-domination/degradation to rape culture. Or they'd deny that a leap even really existed.

Oh yes, and that would be a horrible inference. No, I think we must all agree with Scrib on the fact that clearly, the unambiguous context of the conversation was that the sex would be entirely consensual on her part.

You know, you could ask before you made this leap. I was responding to Guardsman's post that claimed that it was not rapey.I was merely trying to clarify that some wouldn't take that as a meaningful defense or distinction. Even if non-consensual sex is never directly mentioned it still falls under rape culture. If I disagreed I would not characterize it as "sex-as-domination/degradation"; that is essentially conceding the battle. Nor would I say that the leap was fucking trivial.

If you really want to make this point you should really do what Simon did: make a simple comment in support of the position. Then I would either agree or disagree and you have the license to be as caustic as you pleased. But instead you leap straight to the bullshit sarcasm and hacky snark that permeates internet discussions. I've come to notice this in some internet warriors; the instinctive need to shoot first. Too long in the field?

Dude, you don't even need the leap. The perception of sex as domination is the core of rape culture.

Hence the "deny the leap even existed" part of my post.

Explain how, exactly, sex-as-domination is not extremely rapey? How the hell is talking about punishing someone with their shaft not rapey?

See here Eleas: hostile and putting me on the back foot but leaving space for someone to respond.But also simultaneously making it clear how they feel about the topic while not raising one's arm and taking comedic swings too soon. Take notes.

AD: See above.

[Broomstick]

How the hell is talking about punishing someone with their shaft not rapey?

^ This. How is that NOT rape? Then someone offers to buy someone a beer for doing it - great, getting PAID to rape! Very, very rapey.

[Eleas]

Too long in the field?

No, just generally burned out due to recent events. Nevertheless, not an excuse for making snap judgments and vomiting bile. I apologize.

[Guardsman Bass]

I was wrong - "punishing someone with their shaft" is entirely rapey.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

It definitely has a rapey vibe, but to play Devil's advocate, it could also just be frat boy talk, ie. "Our shafts are so big they would PUNISH her!"

In any case, whether we should classify these individuals as potential rapists or just garden variety douchebags, I still don't see the distinction between "rape culture" and plain old backwards values that also result in higher rates of other types of violence and ignorance in general. When you look at the people who diminish rape and sexual assault or make "she was asking for it" comments, their beliefs tend to be retrograde across the board, not just on the one issue. I'm all for education to reduce rape, but I don't see that the term "rape culture" contributes anything other than confusion and polarization.

[Alyrium Denryle]

See here Eleas: hostile and putting me on the back foot but leaving space for someone to respond.But also simultaneously making it clear how they feel about the topic while not raising one's arm and taking comedic swings too soon. Take notes.

AD: See above.

My apologies Scrib, I misread your post. I deal with a LOT of filthy misogynists, and a rage button got pushed.

It definitely has a rapey vibe, but to play Devil's advocate, it could also just be frat boy talk, ie. "Our shafts are so big they would PUNISH her!"

Frat boy speak and being rapey are extensionally equivalent. Also, the idea of fucking someone in a punishment fashion? Yeah... that's fucked up, and rapey. Even if the sex is consensual, the idea of brutally using someone in a way they definitively dont like...yeah. Rape Culture. Right there.

In any case, whether we should classify these individuals as potential rapists or just garden variety douchebags I still don't see the distinction between "rape culture" and plain old backwards values that also result in higher rates of other types of violence and ignorance in general. When you look at the people who diminish rape and sexual assault or make "she was asking for it" comments, their beliefs tend to be retrograde across the board, not just on the one issue.

They tend to be separate. Rape Culture is a specific set of ideas regarding sex and gender that promulgates in the population, and while it is likely true that they correlate with other retrograde bullshit, you have to treat them separately or you wont get anywhere.

[salm]

Frat boy speak and being rapey are extensionally equivalent. Also, the idea of fucking someone in a punishment fashion? Yeah... that's fucked up, and rapey. Even if the sex is consensual, the idea of brutally using someone in a way they definitively dont like...yeah. Rape Culture. Right there.

Would you say the same about a satirical approach?
Satirists and cabaret artists say "bad things" all the time while "in character". It has the potential to be the funniest type of humor out there. It is possible that these guys did the same thing. Perhaps they were speaking "in character" in order to laugh about what a redneck would say and think in their situtation. This turns the whole conversation into a socially critical statement.
Personally I do this all the time and people not completely satirically challenged understand it.

It´s really hard to tell what conversations that are meant to be in private are supposed to mean esspecailly if they´re held among people who know each other well.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Would you say the same about a satirical approach?

No. Satire is exempt.

Personally I do this all the time and people not completely satirically challenged understand it.

If satire is not evidently satire, someone is doing it wrong. I have a regular "Evil Jewish Conspiracy" vs "Homosexual Agenda" back and forth with a friend of mine. The whole thing is monty-python-esque, and is making fun of both notions. What they wrote? No. It is highly unlikely that they are satirizing the concept of douchebags

[salm]

If satire is not evidently satire, someone is doing it wrong. I have a regular "Evil Jewish Conspiracy" vs "Homosexual Agenda" back and forth with a friend of mine. The whole thing is monty-python-esque, and is making fun of both notions. What they wrote? No. It is highly unlikely that they are satirizing the concept of douchebags

Sometimes satire is only apparent to the intended reciepients.

[Broomstick]

I see nothing to indicate the exchange was satire.

Dismissing it as "frat boy" is meaningless, as frat boy antics are frequently part of "rape culture" and frat boys are among the groups that feel entitled to sex or assume that a girl at a party is there to fuck everyone or that getting a girl drunk and raping her while semi-conscious or completely out is OK.*

Stop making excuses for offense behavior.

Yes, it might have been "just talk" but it's "just talk" about committing a crime.


* Yes, I am aware that not all frat boys are like that. Some are genuinely upstanding people. Unfortunately, it's a group with a lot of bad apples.

[salm]

I see nothing to indicate the exchange was satire.

You are not the intended reciepient. If only the intentended reciepient can identify the satire it´s obvious that you can not identify it.

Also, I´m not dismissing it as anything. Esspecially not as fratboy talk. I said that it´s possible that is meant as satire. Maybe it was, maybe not.

[StarSword]

I think what we have here is an example of Poe's Law. Sufficiently extreme speech can be taken as satire and vice versa. Inclined to think not, though.

[Ralin]

I think what we have here is an example of Poe's Law. Sufficiently extreme speech can be taken as satire and vice versa. Inclined to think not, though.

And conversely sometimes the most effective way to mock an idea is to explain it accurately in a deadpan way. The "Scientologists actually believe this" approach.

[Guardsman Bass]

None of the accused in question have said it was a very poorly thought-out joke, or anything to indicate that it was satire among themselves. So I see no reason to regard this as anything other than some guys spouting off rapey, assholish remarks.

[Magis]

Clearly the people quoted in the article are immature and quite grotesque. But quite frankly I'm surprised at the reaction I'm seeing from some people here, especially given the kind of vitriol that members post on this website so frequently. So I did a couple quick searches.

Frat boy speak and being rapey are extensionally equivalent. Also, the idea of fucking someone in a punishment fashion? Yeah... that's fucked up, and rapey. Even if the sex is consensual, the idea of brutally using someone in a way they definitively dont like...yeah. Rape Culture. Right there.

Good point.

From the thread on Prop 8 (page 6):

How exactly are we demeaning anyone's sacrifice by drawing historical parallels to another, equivalent movement? Hmm? I am waiting on bated breath for your answer you sorry sack of lizard vomit. Oh, wait, that is demeaning to the lizard that projectile vomited all over me last week.

Go get fucked by an 18 inch long corkscrew mallard cock.

That's just one of numerous sexually violent comments that are made on this forum on a semi-regular basis. So while (correctly) criticizing the people in the article, maybe some of us should take an objective look at our own language as well. And also, consider that some comments, no matter how crude, don't necessary represent a genuine endorsement of actual violence.

[Dr. Trainwreck]

Quote from 6 YEARS AGO for the win.

Six years ago I called myself an anarchist and wouldn't bother to shower, dude. Eleven years ago everyone on the board was MURICA FUCK YEAH (just check the earliest N&P pages). People change, so what's the point of bringing it up from all the way back?

PS: Apologies to Scrib for early morning browsing.

[Simon_Jester]

Quote from 6 YEARS AGO for the win.

Six years ago I called myself an anarchist and wouldn't bother to shower, dude. Eleven years ago everyone on the board was MURICA FUCK YEAH (just check the earliest N&P pages). People change, so what's the point of bringing it up from all the way back?

Because it's not like people don't still say things like that.

I mean, we could probably find much more recent examples and it's silly to bring up one from six years ago in light of that, but seriously we should at least bear that in mind in the future. If one is going to condemn as 'rape culture' other people talking about violent or brutal sex, one might want to refrain from talking about it oneself.

I'll keep that in mind in the future, though I can't remember having done it much in the past either.

[Guardsman Bass]

What's the point there? People say shitty things here and elsewhere, and it's wrong in both cases to make light of sexual violence.