Transhumanism: is it viable?

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

Moderator: Alyrium Denryle

Post Reply
User avatar
lazerus
The Fuzzy Doom
Posts: 3068
Joined: 2003-08-23 12:49am

Re: Misconduct found in Harvard Animal Cognition Lab

Post by lazerus »

Oh, and I forgot. One signaling protein or gene can have multiple functions... Just saying
Let me save us the next several unpleasant and fitfully unproductive posts.

Me: "An appeal to irreducible complexity is inherently a fallacy. Our inability to adjust such a system now does not speak to our inability to do it in the future, not to mention the possibility of more crude adjustments then working from the base up, as you describe."
You: *post about how biology is complicated*
Me: "An appeal to irreducible complexity is inherently a fallacy. Our inability to adjust such a system now does not speak to our inability to do it in the future."
You: *post about how biology is complicated*
Me: "An appeal to irreducible complexity is inherently a fallacy. Our inability to adjust such a system now does not speak to our inability to do it in the future."
You: *post about how biology is complicated*
Me: "An appeal to irreducible complexity is inherently a fallacy. Our inability to adjust such a system now does not speak to our inability to do it in the future."
You: *post about how biology is complicated*

I'm sure we could go for more then four posts with that, but you get the idea.

Yes, biology is very complicated. Yes, we currently have no good model for the brain. Yes, modifying a living creature at the most basic level is insanely complex. However, all of that is irrelevant as unless you show that the task is somehow fundamentally beyond the capabilities of human civilization. All you're saying is "Transhumanism won't happen for a LONG TIME", not "Transhumanism is stupid."
3D Printed Custom Miniatures! Check it out: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/pro ... miniatures
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Misconduct found in Harvard Animal Cognition Lab

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Let me save us the next several unpleasant and fitfully unproductive posts.
An appeal to irreducible complexity is not what this is. An appeal to irreducible complexity is saying that something is complicated, therefore god made it. What I am saying is that an extant genome is so complicated, that it is not amenable to being engineered. Attempting to substantially modify an extant vertebrate is something that is so far beyond us right now that the notion is properly relegated to fantasy. Something that for the foreseeable future is not possible. Maybe someday, but not for few centuries. Certainly to long for certain transhumanist basement nerds to have their Nerdgasm. As a result, transhumanism is fucking stupid.

As I said, we could build an artificial vertebrate from the genome up before we could actually tinker with something that already exists, because we could make the regulatory mechanisms far less interconnected and jury-rigged.

Frankly, any Utopian idea is stupid. The idea that you will be able to create recursive friendly AI that wont you know... evolve into something malevolent over time is stupid. The idea that we will one day live in a post scarcity society is fucking stupid. Even if we go out into space, extraction of energy and materials will be rate-limited. Particularly because with no death population will skyrocket. The whole notion is a stupid and idealistic fantasy.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
lazerus
The Fuzzy Doom
Posts: 3068
Joined: 2003-08-23 12:49am

Re: Misconduct found in Harvard Animal Cognition Lab

Post by lazerus »

An appeal to irreducible complexity is not what this is. An appeal to irreducible complexity is saying that something is complicated, therefore god made it. What I am saying is that an extant genome is so complicated, that it is not amenable to being engineered.
Do you hear that sound?

That's the sound of everyone in the world with artificial hip joints doing a little jig, while a chior of people who have gone through gene therapy sing "You're wrong!" in an old-south gospel choir.

You see to have the idea that the only two extremes of modifying something are "Do nothing" and "MAGIC TRANSFORMATION BEAM!" that turns normal people into super-cyborgs from the distant future. You don't have to have a full and complete understanding of a system to make some modifications to it, even if those modifications will be correspondingly quite crude. Furthermore, your qualifier of "extant" dismisses the idea of genetic modification pre-birth, which is a facet of some transhumanist beliefs.
Something that for the foreseeable future is not possible. Maybe someday, but not for few centuries. Certainly to long for certain transhumanist basement nerds to have their Nerdgasm. As a result, transhumanism is fucking stupid.
Even if you're right -- and out knowledge of biology is so crude that what you're describing won't be possible for hundreds of years, did you consider that yours isn't the only field relevant to transhumanist beliefs? Prosthetics are improving drastically -- and something as 'tame' (compared to some TH-beliefs out there) as a fully functional replacement limb would make a huge difference to society. Irreducibly complex DNA, if such a thing existed, would only make biology the Field of Fantastic Irrelevance for modifying the human body, while cybernetics can happily fill that void.
As I said, we could build an artificial vertebrate from the genome up before we could actually tinker with something that already exists, because we could make the regulatory mechanisms far less interconnected and jury-rigged.
Could we, say, modify one small series of genes that make humans slightly better able to process modern food and air, making people healthier?

Could we, perhaps, make a very simple adjustment that helps eliminate a particular genetically transmitted illness?

Could we make a human with naturally green hair?

Could we, say, make little advances that actually have a profound effect on society, because your Do-Nothing/Magical-Powers fallacy is retarded?
Frankly, any Utopian idea is stupid. The idea that you will be able to create recursive friendly AI that wont you know... evolve into something malevolent over time is stupid.
Yeah, because Transhumanists have *never* written articles on the danger of rogue artificial intelligence.
The idea that we will one day live in a post scarcity society is fucking stupid. Even if we go out into space, extraction of energy and materials will be rate-limited. Particularly because with no death population will skyrocket. The whole notion is a stupid and idealistic fantasy.
Gosh, you're right. Resources ARE non-infinite! I guess the idea that increasing the resources available to each person over time can alter society is bullshit! I've been lead astray this whole time!

Oh, if only I had known that a good education and a nice house and the personal freedom modern technology gives were all vile LIES. In truth, I'm still competing with my fellows for resources just like it was the feudal era all over again!

Dipshit.
3D Printed Custom Miniatures! Check it out: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/pro ... miniatures
User avatar
Formless
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4141
Joined: 2008-11-10 08:59pm
Location: the beginning and end of the Present

Re: Misconduct found in Harvard Animal Cognition Lab

Post by Formless »

lazerus wrote:Let me save us the next several unpleasant and fitfully unproductive posts.

*snip strawman bullshit*

I'm sure we could go for more then four posts with that, but you get the idea.
Aly, seriously, if you're getting strawmanned, don't post a paragraph about it, just do this:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:It is like postulating wormhole travel. Sure. Someday in the far far distant future it may be a possibility, but for now it is a notion to be scoffed at.
Then call the strawmanner an idiot. :)
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
The Magic Eight Ball Conspiracy.
LionElJonson
Padawan Learner
Posts: 287
Joined: 2010-07-14 10:55pm

Re: Misconduct found in Harvard Animal Cognition Lab

Post by LionElJonson »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Frankly, any Utopian idea is stupid. The idea that you will be able to create recursive friendly AI that wont you know... evolve into something malevolent over time is stupid.
It won't become malevolent because it won't want to become malevolent the same way we don't want to die, only moreso because it's vastly smarter than we are, and capable of planning far better than we are. Seriously, do you know even the first thing about Friendly AI? Properly implemented, the things will be more benevolent than humans are capable of being.
The idea that we will one day live in a post scarcity society is fucking stupid. Even if we go out into space, extraction of energy and materials will be rate-limited. Particularly because with no death population will skyrocket. The whole notion is a stupid and idealistic fantasy.
Post-scarcity works well enough as long as you've got a closed system as far as matter goes, and a steady input of energy from the outside (i.e. the Earth, with a bunch of solar power stations). You just recycle everything you don't want anymore with nanobots, and use it as raw material to build the stuff you do want. The Earth's got more than enough matter and space to go around for everyone to have their own house, food, consumer goods, et cetera.
User avatar
lazerus
The Fuzzy Doom
Posts: 3068
Joined: 2003-08-23 12:49am

Re: Misconduct found in Harvard Animal Cognition Lab

Post by lazerus »

Post-scarcity works well enough as long as you've got a closed system as far as matter goes, and a steady input of energy from the outside (i.e. the Earth, with a bunch of solar power stations). You just recycle everything you don't want anymore with nanobots, and use it as raw material to build the stuff you do want. The Earth's got more than enough matter and space to go around for everyone to have their own house, food, consumer goods, et cetera.
Psst.

Hey.

Listen, I really appreciate you trying to help me win this debate, but, I think there's something you need to know.

You're a moron.

While Alyrium is wrong about many things, he can apprantly do basic math much better then you, because a finite amount of resources, divided amongst a finite number of people....remains finite, dumbass! The only way you can have a truly unlimited-resources society is if there's some point where people go "You know, I don't really want a bigger house" and society is left with a glut of resources it doesn't want to use -- and anyone who understands basic human psychology or economics knows that that's a very bad thing, if it happens at all.

Your handwaving magic technology based on "nanobots" underlies both your fundamental ignorance of the laws of physics, and your contemptuous disdain for basic math.

Please stop associating me with your fetid ideas.
3D Printed Custom Miniatures! Check it out: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/pro ... miniatures
User avatar
lazerus
The Fuzzy Doom
Posts: 3068
Joined: 2003-08-23 12:49am

Re: Misconduct found in Harvard Animal Cognition Lab

Post by lazerus »

Aly, seriously, if you're getting strawmanned, don't post a paragraph about it, just do this:
I would argue that is what he was saying. But, he said he didn't and posted a more nuanced argument, so I responded to *that* argument instead of the earlier assumptions I made about his points. Take your assertions of strawmanning and shove them.
3D Printed Custom Miniatures! Check it out: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/pro ... miniatures
User avatar
Formless
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4141
Joined: 2008-11-10 08:59pm
Location: the beginning and end of the Present

Re: Misconduct found in Harvard Animal Cognition Lab

Post by Formless »

lazerus wrote:
Aly, seriously, if you're getting strawmanned, don't post a paragraph about it, just do this:
I would argue that is what he was saying. But, he said he didn't and posted a more nuanced argument, so I responded to *that* argument instead of the earlier assumptions I made about his points. Take your assertions of strawmanning and shove them.
No, you asshole, he never changed his position. He was elaborating on why that is his position. Can't you read? Or are you just upset that someone deflated your conceits and think you can bullshit past me?
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
The Magic Eight Ball Conspiracy.
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Misconduct found in Harvard Animal Cognition Lab

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

That's the sound of everyone in the world with artificial hip joints doing a little jig, while a chior of people who have gone through gene therapy sing "You're wrong!" in an old-south gospel choir.
1) An artificial hip is made from artificial materials. Mimicking the biomechanics of a hip joint using plastic and rubber is easy.
2) Gene therapy is fraught with problems, not the least of which is that it ends up not being permanent. It can also only really be used for certain genes and for certain types of conditions and is very limited in its application. Typically it is used to replace a gene which is fucked up
3) It is possible to grow relatively simple tissue, such as ears on the back of a rat. However those tissues are very simple and we rely on the preprogrammed instructions within the cell, and simply provide the correct environment. A far cry from modifying something's brain during its development.

This line of argument should have been implicit in what I have already written. Go back and to gradeschool and take a remedial course in english reading comprehension.
You see to have the idea that the only two extremes of modifying something are "Do nothing" and "MAGIC TRANSFORMATION BEAM!" that turns normal people into super-cyborgs from the distant future.
That is because I was only addressing the very far-out notions of radical modification. No one was talking about gene therapy, though I did actually specify that the prospect of modifying traits with a simple Mendelian genetic control was not a problem.
Irreducibly complex DNA
You do not even know what irreducible complexity means...

The genetic regulation of a living thing can very easily be reduced in complexity. It is a jury rigged mess, that is why God did not do it. Which is why I also said that it would be easier to build a genome from the ground up than muck with something pre-existing to a large extent. Or were you not paying attention?
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Anguirus
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3702
Joined: 2005-09-11 02:36pm
Contact:

Re: Misconduct found in Harvard Animal Cognition Lab

Post by Anguirus »

Lazerus, you've decided to have the wrong argument. Alyrium never attacked gene therapy, prostheses, or the idea of human advancement. Claiming that he did so (which you seem to have extrapolated from his statement that transhumanists are stupid, and thus, he must think every idea that a transhumanist has ever had is stupid...this, of course, is a bit...not smart) IS is fact a strawman.

What Alyrium was dissecting is the assertion, which is made only by people who know comparatively zero about living organisms, that "uplifting" is something that could actually happen. You treat "human intelligence" as if it is the result of a single or perhaps a small number of gene products, like green florescent protein, when in fact it is not.

He has rather convincingly demonstrated that engineering an organism from the ground up to superficially resemble a chimpanzee and have human intelligence would actually be easier than the stupid fantasy of "uplifting" chimpanzees that are already there. Consider the immense amount of time, effort, and money that went into producing a single "artificial" cell recently (in fact the significant achievement was in bringing a dead cell back to life with an artificially created genome which was created using the template of a closely related species' genome...and this genome is one of the smallest ones known to us).

Is there a word for this fallacy that I see self-identified transhumanists on SD.net use all the time? "Assuming functionally infinite energy, humans will one day achieve anything that the laws of physics will allow!"

No. We really can't. Even if it were possible given practically infinite time, resources, and expertise, society will not appropriate the resources to create novelty organisms that satisfy your weird fantasies, for any number of practical, economic, and ethical reasons.

But never mind us whiny "biologists," Vladimir, just keep waiting for the Singularity.
"I spit on metaphysics, sir."

"I pity the woman you marry." -Liberty

This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal.
-Tanasinn
You can't expect sodomy to ruin every conservative politician in this country. -Battlehymn Republic
My blog, please check out and comment! http://decepticylon.blogspot.com
User avatar
Formless
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4141
Joined: 2008-11-10 08:59pm
Location: the beginning and end of the Present

Re: Misconduct found in Harvard Animal Cognition Lab

Post by Formless »

Anguirus wrote:Is there a word for this fallacy that I see self-identified transhumanists on SD.net use all the time? "Assuming functionally infinite energy, humans will one day achieve anything that the laws of physics will allow!"
No Limits Fallacy. Trektards were using it long before any transhumanists came out of the woodworks around here.
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
The Magic Eight Ball Conspiracy.
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Misconduct found in Harvard Animal Cognition Lab

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

LionElJonson wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Frankly, any Utopian idea is stupid. The idea that you will be able to create recursive friendly AI that wont you know... evolve into something malevolent over time is stupid.
It won't become malevolent because it won't want to become malevolent the same way we don't want to die, only moreso because it's vastly smarter than we are, and capable of planning far better than we are. Seriously, do you know even the first thing about Friendly AI? Properly implemented, the things will be more benevolent than humans are capable of being.
The idea that we will one day live in a post scarcity society is fucking stupid. Even if we go out into space, extraction of energy and materials will be rate-limited. Particularly because with no death population will skyrocket. The whole notion is a stupid and idealistic fantasy.
Post-scarcity works well enough as long as you've got a closed system as far as matter goes, and a steady input of energy from the outside (i.e. the Earth, with a bunch of solar power stations). You just recycle everything you don't want anymore with nanobots, and use it as raw material to build the stuff you do want. The Earth's got more than enough matter and space to go around for everyone to have their own house, food, consumer goods, et cetera.

Do me a favor and remove yourself from the gene pool.

The problem is not with out programming of a friendly AI. It is with the building of subsequent machines. First off, the machines will not be smarter than we are. It will have a faster CPU, the two are not the same thing. We have to program this thing to be able to do things like perform higher math and mimic having an actual biological intelligence. It will be limited in its ability to do these things by the human programmer who initially creates it and as a result will be limited in its understanding of higher math to the degree that the programmer understood higher math. In turn, it cannot subsequently program a machine that is smarter than it unless it uses some sort of genetic algorithm that creates random mutations in code and then selects for those machines which get built that display higher cognitive capacity. These same mutations however can create a non-friendly AI. As a result malevolent AIs could well (and eventually will, simply due to mutation and drift) evolve out of your recursively more intelligent AIs due to a lack of function mutation in the Friendly code.

As for the earth: No. It does not. If only because matter conversion during recycling cannot be 100% efficient by definition. That is all the response I need give you.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
lazerus
The Fuzzy Doom
Posts: 3068
Joined: 2003-08-23 12:49am

Re: Misconduct found in Harvard Animal Cognition Lab

Post by lazerus »

Lazerus, you've decided to have the wrong argument. Alyrium never attacked gene therapy, prostheses, or the idea of human advancement. Claiming that he did so (which you seem to have extrapolated from his statement that transhumanists are stupid, and thus, he must think every idea that a transhumanist has ever had is stupid...this, of course, is a bit...not smart) IS is fact a strawman.
Considering that that's basically what Transhumanism is...no, it really isn't. It would be equivalent to him saying that any policy based around a strong government is stupid, and then launching into a detailed list of why facism is bad. He attacked a very broad idea, picking examples from it's craziest and most extreme supporters, and I countered by pointing out more moderate, reasonable examples.

If he wants to say that he was only attacking the absurd extreme, I'll accept that I misunderstood him and apologize. But until he says that, I don't think his arguments support that assertion.
What Alyrium was dissecting is the assertion, which is made only by people who know comparatively zero about living organisms, that "uplifting" is something that could actually happen. You treat "human intelligence" as if it is the result of a single or perhaps a small number of gene products, like green florescent protein, when in fact it is not.
Quote where I assert that. Or maybe you're overlooking the fact that I freely smacked down the idiot who claimed that, and only responded to Aly's claim that transhumanism in general was stupid.
He has rather convincingly demonstrated that engineering an organism from the ground up to superficially resemble a chimpanzee and have human intelligence would actually be easier than the stupid fantasy of "uplifting" chimpanzees that are already there. Consider the immense amount of time, effort, and money that went into producing a single "artificial" cell recently (in fact the significant achievement was in bringing a dead cell back to life with an artificially created genome which was created using the template of a closely related species' genome...and this genome is one of the smallest ones known to us).
Because I defended this...where? Oh right, I didn't, you're associating me with the 'tard who started this uplifting nonsense despite my smacking him down for that stuff twice in this very thread.
Is there a word for this fallacy that I see self-identified transhumanists on SD.net use all the time? "Assuming functionally infinite energy, humans will one day achieve anything that the laws of physics will allow!"

No. We really can't. Even if it were possible given practically infinite time, resources, and expertise, society will not appropriate the resources to create novelty organisms that satisfy your weird fantasies, for any number of practical, economic, and ethical reasons.
Never claimed this, smacked down the guy who did.
1) An artificial hip is made from artificial materials. Mimicking the biomechanics of a hip joint using plastic and rubber is easy.
...yes. That's my point. You argue that transhumanism is centuries away, I go "No, look, cybernetics are here right now!" and you roll your eyes and go, "Well, sure, if you wanted to do it the easy way."

What, is using cybernetics cheating?
2) Gene therapy is fraught with problems, not the least of which is that it ends up not being permanent. It can also only really be used for certain genes and for certain types of conditions and is very limited in its application. Typically it is used to replace a gene which is fucked up
3) It is possible to grow relatively simple tissue, such as ears on the back of a rat. However those tissues are very simple and we rely on the preprogrammed instructions within the cell, and simply provide the correct environment. A far cry from modifying something's brain during its development.
Point out where I said it needed to be complex. Point out where I said you needed to modify the brain during development? Oh, right, I didn't say any of those things fuckwit. I asserted that small, simple modifications to produce minor changes to the body could have a far reaching societal effect.
You do not even know what irreducible complexity means...
I misunderstood you -- point conceded. I was attacking an argument you never made, my bad.
3D Printed Custom Miniatures! Check it out: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/pro ... miniatures
User avatar
Sarevok
The Fearless One
Posts: 10681
Joined: 2002-12-24 07:29am
Location: The Covenants last and final line of defense

Re: Misconduct found in Harvard Animal Cognition Lab

Post by Sarevok »

What possible use could an "uplifted" ape or dolphin serve ? I don't see anything other than pleasing furries justifying a field of research as far fetched as cold fusion or warp drive.
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Misconduct found in Harvard Animal Cognition Lab

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

...yes. That's my point. You argue that transhumanism is centuries away, I go "No, look, cybernetics are here right now!" and you roll your eyes and go, "Well, sure, if you wanted to do it the easy way."

What, is using cybernetics cheating?
Not at all, but you are committing a strawman again, attacking me for not addressing an issue in an argument I was not having.

Cybernetics are awesome, But Cybernetics the medical treatment =/ transhumanism the ideology.
Point out where I said it needed to be complex. Point out where I said you needed to modify the brain during development? Oh, right, I didn't say any of those things fuckwit. I asserted that small, simple modifications to produce minor changes to the body could have a far reaching societal effect.
Small changes like regrowing a missing ear =/ transhumanism the ideology.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Misconduct found in Harvard Animal Cognition Lab

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Sarevok wrote:What possible use could an "uplifted" ape or dolphin serve ? I don't see anything other than pleasing furries justifying a field of research as far fetched as cold fusion or warp drive.

The joke is on them. One day the chimp will want to get kinky and all of the sudden Mr. Furry is missing fingers. Honestly, I really hope that a lot of the furries pushing for uplifts have a good and solid Vore fetish.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Anguirus
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3702
Joined: 2005-09-11 02:36pm
Contact:

Re: Misconduct found in Harvard Animal Cognition Lab

Post by Anguirus »

It's a little more specific than that, I think. It has something to do with an utter lack of respect for the concept that some problems are not easily solved no matter how "smart" you are due to their inherent complexity.

To make it even more specific, for genetic engineering, more and more we learn that DNA is not a simple "blueprint" for whatever organism it is carrying around, but popular culture lags 40 years ahead of the science here. The idea that if we know the "blueprint", we can trivially build the "building" simply won't die. We can accomplish amazing things with bioengineering already, but we aren't going to produce designer vertebrates in tubes just for the sake of waving our own sciencedicks, because there are too many fucking variables.

You want to be stronger? Take anabolic steroids...I find it unlikely there will ever be a more practical method than that in any time frame worth speaking about. You want animals to have certain traits? Breed them for it, we've been doing that for ages.
"I spit on metaphysics, sir."

"I pity the woman you marry." -Liberty

This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal.
-Tanasinn
You can't expect sodomy to ruin every conservative politician in this country. -Battlehymn Republic
My blog, please check out and comment! http://decepticylon.blogspot.com
User avatar
lazerus
The Fuzzy Doom
Posts: 3068
Joined: 2003-08-23 12:49am

Re: Misconduct found in Harvard Animal Cognition Lab

Post by lazerus »

Not at all, but you are committing a strawman again, attacking me for not addressing an issue in an argument I was not having.

Cybernetics are awesome, But Cybernetics the medical treatment =/ transhumanism the ideology.
Small changes like regrowing a missing ear =/ transhumanism the ideology.
Mmmm.

Well then. Much as it's less satisfying then insulting your intelligence with a wonderful spread of profanity, I fear I need to politely correct you here because it seems we've both had a misunderstanding.

You're confusing the transhumanist movement in general with the Near Singularian subset of it, which is kind of like confusing, say, the Left Wing in general with people who think that Gaia is alive and there's an evil industrialist conspiracy to steal our brainwaves. Transhumanism in general is just concerned with the modification of the human condition through science. Being able to replace a limb with a cybernetic equiviliant absolutely qualifies, as do genetic modifications pre-birth. If there were cybernetic limbs out there that were superior to my normal limbs, you can bet I'd electively get a replacement. My wrists are shit. Just because it doesn't involve modifying the mind directly, doesn't mean it isn't transhumanism.
3D Printed Custom Miniatures! Check it out: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/pro ... miniatures
User avatar
lazerus
The Fuzzy Doom
Posts: 3068
Joined: 2003-08-23 12:49am

Re: Misconduct found in Harvard Animal Cognition Lab

Post by lazerus »

The joke is on them. One day the chimp will want to get kinky and all of the sudden Mr. Furry is missing fingers. Honestly, I really hope that a lot of the furries pushing for uplifts have a good and solid Vore fetish.
Wouldn't it be easier and make a lot more sense to give a human fur then to give an animal smarts?

I'm not saying that the first task would be easy. Just. You know. It's hard and kind of weird instead of fundamentally retarded.
You want to be stronger? Take anabolic steroids...I find it unlikely there will ever be a more practical method than that in any time frame worth speaking about. You want animals to have certain traits? Breed them for it, we've been doing that for ages.
Genetics engineering of crops and animals is already in use for commercial purposes. Fail sir.
3D Printed Custom Miniatures! Check it out: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/pro ... miniatures
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Misconduct found in Harvard Animal Cognition Lab

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Fair enough
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Anguirus
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3702
Joined: 2005-09-11 02:36pm
Contact:

Re: Misconduct found in Harvard Animal Cognition Lab

Post by Anguirus »

Quote where I assert that. Or maybe you're overlooking the fact that I freely smacked down the idiot who claimed that, and only responded to Aly's claim that transhumanism in general was stupid.
This is my mistake and I apologize.

This would be well beyond the scope of this thread, but I would be interested in seeing a bonafide, dedicated definition of transhumanism, and then a defense of that ideology. My knowledge about it basically comes from people around here spouting off, combined with reading a few essays that left me rather unconvinced.

My general impression is that at the very least, your timeframe is radically compressed. There is also a bad habit of conflating skepticism with small-mindedness and Luddism. On the contrary, I think that our development into immortal mechanical God-Kings would rock on toast. I have some questions, however, on practical grounds.
"I spit on metaphysics, sir."

"I pity the woman you marry." -Liberty

This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal.
-Tanasinn
You can't expect sodomy to ruin every conservative politician in this country. -Battlehymn Republic
My blog, please check out and comment! http://decepticylon.blogspot.com
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Misconduct found in Harvard Animal Cognition Lab

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

lazerus wrote:
The joke is on them. One day the chimp will want to get kinky and all of the sudden Mr. Furry is missing fingers. Honestly, I really hope that a lot of the furries pushing for uplifts have a good and solid Vore fetish.
Wouldn't it be easier and make a lot more sense to give a human fur then to give an animal smarts?

I'm not saying that the first task would be easy. Just. You know. It's hard and kind of weird instead of fundamentally retarded.
You want to be stronger? Take anabolic steroids...I find it unlikely there will ever be a more practical method than that in any time frame worth speaking about. You want animals to have certain traits? Breed them for it, we've been doing that for ages.
Genetics engineering of crops and animals is already in use for commercial purposes. Fail sir.
No. You still fail. Why? Because for the things that get genetically engineered they are typically one gene with a simple regulatory path. Namely, a negative feedback loop where transcription products bind to whatever part it is that regulates the gene (depending on the gene) and inhibits transcription. So for example, something resistant to Roundup produces a single protein which protects it from that same pesticide.

Something like strength is far the fuck more complex than that, barring genes present in cows that randomly double muscle mass and create something really unhealthy that by all rights deserves to live a short life to end its suffering...
Last edited by Alyrium Denryle on 2010-08-13 02:00pm, edited 1 time in total.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Misconduct found in Harvard Animal Cognition Lab

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Anguirus wrote:
Quote where I assert that. Or maybe you're overlooking the fact that I freely smacked down the idiot who claimed that, and only responded to Aly's claim that transhumanism in general was stupid.
This is my mistake and I apologize.

This would be well beyond the scope of this thread, but I would be interested in seeing a bonafide, dedicated definition of transhumanism, and then a defense of that ideology. My knowledge about it basically comes from people around here spouting off, combined with reading a few essays that left me rather unconvinced.

My general impression is that at the very least, your timeframe is radically compressed. There is also a bad habit of conflating skepticism with small-mindedness and Luddism. On the contrary, I think that our development into immortal mechanical God-Kings would rock on toast. I have some questions, however, on practical grounds.

Dont get me wrong. I would LOVE to have a spider mech body.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Formless
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4141
Joined: 2008-11-10 08:59pm
Location: the beginning and end of the Present

Re: Misconduct found in Harvard Animal Cognition Lab

Post by Formless »

lazarus wrote:Genetics engineering of crops and animals is already in use for commercial purposes. Fail sir.
Because plants are totally the same as humans, and inserting pre-existing chromosomes from some organisms into other organisms is totally the same thing as coding new traits.

Or not.
Last edited by Formless on 2010-08-13 02:05pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
The Magic Eight Ball Conspiracy.
User avatar
Formless
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4141
Joined: 2008-11-10 08:59pm
Location: the beginning and end of the Present

Re: Misconduct found in Harvard Animal Cognition Lab

Post by Formless »

Alyrium wrote:Dont get me wrong. I would LOVE to have a spider mech body.
Personally, I like having a primate body. Spiders can't play soccer or do parkour. :)
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
The Magic Eight Ball Conspiracy.
Post Reply