Treason against the US Governmentr

Bob McDob · Post by **Bob McDob** » 2003-11-28 02:19am

What would the government of the United States consider treason? If, say, a Georgian were to say "If the Civil War was fought today, I'd side with the Confederacy", would that be considered worrisome to the FBI and Homeland Security? Would they even care?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2003-11-28 02:26am

Treason is the only defined crime in the U.S. Constitution. I'd think everyone would know what it is.

Okay. Treason is basically actively giving aid and comfort to the enemy. Talking big isn't treason, and could not be construed as such. Furthermore, in order to be convicted of treason one must be testified against by two eyewitnesses in open court. All these measures were put into the Constitution because treason was used as the catch-all crime in Europe at the time. If the king didn't like you, you were accused of treason and sent to the Tower of London/Bastille/whatever to rot while your trial was delayed indefinitely. Naturally, the authors of the Constitution were having none of that. It is very hard to successfully convict someone of treason, and that's not changing without a Constitutional amendment, the Patriot Act notwithstanding.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-11-28 03:25am

Sedition is not a crime as per the US supreme court. Talking bad about the US is not a crime, it's covered under the first amendment.

Tosho · Post by **Tosho** » 2003-11-28 04:30am

Article. III.
Section. 1.
The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The Judges, both of the supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good Behaviour, and shall, at stated Times, receive for their Services, a Compensation, which shall not be diminished during their Continuance in Office.

Section. 2.
Clause 1: The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;--to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls;--to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction;--to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party;--to Controversies between two or more States;--between a State and Citizens of another State; (See Note 10)--between Citizens of different States, --between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.

Clause 2: In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.

Clause 3: The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed.

Section. 3.
Clause 1: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

Clause 2: The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

Tosho · Post by **Tosho** » 2003-11-28 04:33am

Forgotlink.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2003-11-28 04:34am

Ahh, nuts. I had just gone to fetch that too. Ah well. Good job.

Tosho · Post by **Tosho** » 2003-11-28 04:40am

Rogue 9 wrote:Ahh, nuts. I had just gone to fetch that too. Ah well. Good job.

thanks.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2003-11-28 10:08am

I don't think it would be treason until you were actively trying to get the South to secede so you could fight for them. Wasn't Aaron Burr was charged with treason for trying to get a part of the United States to secede?

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-11-28 11:36am

Actually Burr was found not guilty of treason for bankrolling an attempt to sieze control of Mexico to make it an extra slave state....

Angela Davis (Dem, state assemblywoman, California) was the last person actually charged with treason for her activities with the Black Panther Party, and Terrorist connections, she was aquitted.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-11-28 03:03pm

IIRC, we've not actually had a conviction for treason since the 1950s in a World War II-related case.

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2003-11-30 01:07pm

phongn wrote:IIRC, we've not actually had a conviction for treason since the 1950s in a World War II-related case.

Hmm, well Oliver North wasn't convicted was he? I didn't really pay much attention to it back then, it was something about him putting money in a swiss bank account IIRC.

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2003-11-30 01:08pm

Bob McDob wrote:What would the government of the United States consider treason? If, say, a Georgian were to say "If the Civil War was fought today, I'd side with the Confederacy", would that be considered worrisome to the FBI and Homeland Security? Would they even care?

What about burning a flag, is that a crime or not? I remember seeing a Johnny Carson episode where he said "It's legal to burn the flag if you do it over a 2livecrew album" So I thought it was illegal.

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2003-11-30 01:29pm

Flag burning isn't a crime.
Anyone who says it is, is simply stupid. They put so much emotion into a piece of cloth and then claim it represents some "Ideals". Pathetic ideals if you have to have some waving representation to actually re-remind you of them.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-11-30 01:35pm

Shrykull wrote:Hmm, well Oliver North wasn't convicted was he? I didn't really pay much attention to it back then, it was something about him putting money in a swiss bank account IIRC.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Oliver North was certainly not convicted of treason.

Darth Hellion wrote:Flag burning isn't a crime.
Anyone who says it is, is simply stupid. They put so much emotion into a piece of cloth and then claim it represents some "Ideals". Pathetic ideals if you have to have some waving representation to actually re-remind you of them.

It actually depends on the area: in some places it is a crime to burn the flag.

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2003-11-30 02:11pm

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Oliver North was certainly not convicted of treason.

I didn't really know actually.

Shadow WarChief · Post by **Shadow WarChief** » 2003-11-30 03:16pm

phongn wrote: It actually depends on the area: in some places it is a crime to burn the flag.

The hell it is....

In 1989, in Texas v. Johnson, SCOTUS ruled that flag burning laws were unconstitutional

Shadow WarChief · Post by **Shadow WarChief** » 2003-11-30 03:20pm

BAH....forgot to add in the last paragraph of the decision in case you don't want to tredge through pages of legalize

FYI, it is Texas that is appealing to SCOTUS to reverse a decision by a lower court that made the flag burning law unconstitutional.

Johnson was convicted for engaging in expressive conduct. The State's interest in preventing breaches of the peace does not support his conviction because Johnson's conduct did not threaten to disturb the peace. Nor does the State's interest in preserving the flag as a symbol of nationhood and national unity justify his criminal conviction for engaging in political expression. The judgment of the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals is therefore

Affirmed.

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2003-11-30 10:51pm

Shadow WarChief wrote:
phongn wrote: It actually depends on the area: in some places it is a crime to burn the flag.
The hell it is....

In 1989, in Texas v. Johnson, SCOTUS ruled that flag burning laws were unconstitutional

he said in some places not some places in the US.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-11-30 11:22pm

No, I was referring to the US, of which I am clearly wrong (based on SCOTUS's ruling).

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-12-01 02:32am

Jane Fonda could have been convicted of treason but they decided not too

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