Racism...or not?

[His Divine Shadow]

Sorry, but that's just a very carefully worded way of saying "black people are ugly".

Didn't really strike me as that.

And I would agree, and I am not racist, I've seen many a incredibly hot black chicks(Beyonce is hot, can't say I care for the music tho), they're mainly african-american, many of them look good I think, however I don't find the women we see in africa that attractive.
There's just certain features that are too pronounced for me to find it attractive, though I might have seen one or two that I could find attractive but as a general rule.

And just because you don't find someone attractive doesn't mean your racist, there's probably a huge list of white, asian and black and all kinds of people of all races, mixed and mingled that I do not find attractive.

But so what? Because you don't find someone attractive you also hate them and everything about them and start to make judegment calls based on that?
Thats absurd.

[His Divine Shadow]

Tell me, for all of the people who defend racial preference in dating by simply using the word "features", what would you think if someone said "I don't want to date black people because I think dark skin is ugly"? Dark skin is just a "feature" of black people, right?

Or I don't want to date white people because they are pale?

Or maybe I just prefer the african-american type of black people as opposed to the african type, yeah there's a difference.

Quite frankly your method of definition is unrealistic, what one finds physically attractive is quite frankly not important to what one makes of a person.

Shades of grey for some reason is very fitting here.

[Darth Wong]

Shades of grey for some reason is very fitting here.

Well duh, isn't that obvious? Racism isn't a binary condition where you are either totally racist or not racist at all; it is a matter of degrees in most cases, and I have found that a lot of people draw their line in the sand at dating a black person (I don't know why blacks get singled out; most of the people who have a problem with blacks have no problem with hispanics or asians).

But in any case, while someone who won't date a black person is not as racist as someone who wants to beat up a black person or deny him a job, it is nevertheless still a form of racism, and all of the attempts to describe it as something else involve nothing more than rhetorical games (as noted before, very reminiscent of the fundie "hate the sin, not the sinner" routine that we all know and love).

[Rogue 9]

IMHO if the decision of these people seems to be based entirely on the fact of race, and it is therefore racist.

You'd be wrong, of course, since both I and Pendragon repeatedly spoke of traits that aren't based entirely on race. But don't let that stand in your way.

Okay, call it a hunch, but I think he was referring to the original post. *Gasp!*

[His Divine Shadow]

Well duh, isn't that obvious? Racism isn't a binary condition where you are either totally racist or not racist at all; it is a matter of degrees in most cases, and I have found that a lot of people draw their line in the sand at dating a black person (I don't know why blacks get singled out; most of the people who have a problem with blacks have no problem with hispanics or asians).

To some degree we are all racists then, but that can't be avoided nor would I say it's a big deal either, we simply find some characteristics attractive and others not, however such a thing has little todo with the way I judge a person.
Though I wouldn't call someone a racist because of that since being called that usually strikes up parallels with white supremacists and nazis and such, which noone(sane) wants to be associated with.

As for black people, well I dunno, there's probably some charactersitics they have which most people of other races don't find attractive, it's not skin color because I find indian women very attractive and they can be just as dark skinned(I remember a few years ago I tried to get together with this indian girl(adopted), she was hot, didn't work out tho ), and also it(for me anyway) doesn't really apply to african-american women.

[Eleas]

Okay, call it a hunch, but I think he was referring to the original post. *Gasp!*

Possibly. If he did, then my statement doesn't apply.

[Darth Wong]

To some degree we are all racists then, but that can't be avoided nor would I say it's a big deal either, we simply find some characteristics attractive and others not, however such a thing has little todo with the way I judge a person.

It's a question of just how racist you are. Nobody's perfect.

Though I wouldn't call someone a racist because of that since being called that usually strikes up parallels with white supremacists and nazis and such, which noone(sane) wants to be associated with.

Well, that's unfortunate, but the same is true of sexism. I'm a sexist, and so are you. But that doesn't mean we fall into the Andrew Dice Clay knuckle-dragging neanderthal category. The problem with labels is that people tend to polarize them.

As for black people, well I dunno, there's probably some charactersitics they have which most people of other races don't find attractive, it's not skin color because I find indian women very attractive and they can be just as dark skinned(I remember a few years ago I tried to get together with this indian girl(adopted), she was hot, didn't work out tho ), and also it(for me anyway) doesn't really apply to african-american women.

I think some people have a real big problem with wider noses. I've heard that nosejobs are becoming very popular among black girls in some parts of the country because they're self-conscious about this. But of course, one must ask: is it really about the nose, or is it the subtle result of a lifetime of conditioning to view blacks and whites as romantically segregated?

Either way, I can only imagine how it makes a young black girl feel to overhear people saying things like that.

[Eleas]

I think some people have a real big problem with wider noses. I've heard that nosejobs are becoming very popular among black girls in some parts of the country because they're self-conscious about this. But of course, one must ask: is it really about the nose, or is it the subtle result of a lifetime of conditioning to view blacks and whites as romantically segregated?

The problem of polarity again. I don't think one can pick either the one or the other as a conclusive answer. For some people it would be about the nose. For others, it would be because of the thought of so-called "interracial" marriages (funny how that label only applies to white people and black people, innit?). For yet others, both reasons would apply, and so on.

Either way, I can only imagine how it makes a young black girl feel to overhear people saying things like that.

Humans choose their mates. They have the damnedest criteria. This can be cruel, yes, but it's undeniably true.

Still, while I for example happen to think big tits look good on a girl, it's not that simple; I also like slight girls, on which big tits would look grotesque. It's basically the same with the nose; it has to do with how it fits on the rest of the girl. I guess.

So, to get back to topic, it's the same thing with silicon and pimples. You want to change something that you hear isn't, or can't be, attractive. No matter if it's true or not.

[Tosho]

Well duh, isn't that obvious? Racism isn't a binary condition where you are either totally racist or not racist at all; it is a matter of degrees in most cases, and I have found that a lot of people draw their line in the sand at dating a black person (I don't know why blacks get singled out; most of the people who have a problem with blacks have no problem with hispanics or asians).

Best theory I have is that it's cultural. take white guys and asian girls for example, why is it cultural? for the past 50 years the West has been bombarded whith the image that asian women are naturally submissve, kind, good cooks, wives, girlfriends, mothers, polite, innocent, yet ironcally considering their "innocence" knowleldgeable in bed, ect.. Combine this with the fact that less and less western women actively show these traits traditionly considered feminine, most men would actively react positively to the false stereotype that there is an entire fuckin' race of people with women with the above traits.

It's not a good idea, and you'll probably be able tear it apart but it's the best I can think of.

[Dalton]

First off, I'd like to say that Mike, I think your word choice was either poor or deliberately chosen to get an angry reaction. You could have called it a "degree" of racism right off the bat instead of suggesting Eleas was a racist, then explained that it wasn't necessarily an insult or judgment. In the end, I'd just call it a miscommunication and leave it at that.

Secondly, the motives for the students who don't wish to attend are unclear, so I can't make a judgment call there. Do they not want to attend because of the fact that the students are Asian (negative) or is it fear of doing poorly in class because of the supersmart Asian student stereotype (positive)?

Thirdly, HDS, your usage of the term "african-american" bothers me. Are you referring to only American blacks with this statement? A black person in the UK would NOT be an "african-american". In this PC-world they'd probably be called African-Britons or some other meaningless phrase.

Finally, I myself am attracted to most races of women, foremost among them being whites (for rather obvious instinctual reasons, I might add). I do find Asians, blacks and Hispanics/Latin American women attractive too. The only subsets I generally don't have a lot of attraction to are Arabs, Indians and Native Americans, but I'll grant that it might be social conditioning due to having preconceived notions of what most of them look like because of television influence.

[His Divine Shadow]

Thirdly, HDS, your usage of the term "african-american" bothers me. Are you referring to only American blacks with this statement? A black person in the UK would NOT be an "african-american". In this PC-world they'd probably be called African-Britons or some other meaningless phrase.

Well african-americans do look different, it's probably because of the mixing with caucasians, I like that "look", sure thats not an entierly american phenomenom, but thats where it's predominatly occuring.

[The Third Man]

Maybe those who find other races unattractive are more victims of racism than racists? To explain - if you live in an environment in which you do not frequently encounter members of other races (ie a racist environment), then your ideas of beauty and attractiveness will become skewed to favour the features of the people that you are exposed to.

Maybe this is why, in this thread, there is a hint that those African types that we (the mainly white male western population of this board) are more exposed to (eg Beyonce - media exposure counts too) are deemed more attractive than the 'true' Africans, to whom we are less exposed.

Based on my own personal experience, I would say that ones ideas of attractiveness can and will change if you are placed into a less 'racist', and more diverse environment.

The same reasoning might provide a partial answer to Darth Wongs question:

(I don't know why blacks get singled out; most of the people who have a problem with blacks have no problem with hispanics or asians).

- I would suggest that, where you are DW, blacks tend to be less integrated with the rest of society. Where I am it's the (Islamic) Asians who are more segregated, and correspondingly they tend to be the ones that people of other races have a problem with.

[Darth Wong]

First off, I'd like to say that Mike, I think your word choice was either poor or deliberately chosen to get an angry reaction. You could have called it a "degree" of racism right off the bat instead of suggesting Eleas was a racist, then explained that it wasn't necessarily an insult or judgment. In the end, I'd just call it a miscommunication and leave it at that.

It didn't occur to me that anyone would not know that there are degrees of racism between the perfect person and Adolf Hitler.

[Pendragon]

Well, If everyone in the world is a racist to certain (as DW defines it), wouldn't we just be just be bettor off lumping the small-time racism together with what it really is?
Plain old discrimination due to looks.

To me racism is when you hold preconceived notions about an ethnic group that isnt true (most black people are theives). But claiming that most black people have curly hair... well, that would be a statement of fact (assuming it's negroid-black, dravidians (indian black) tend to have straight hair).

Saying that race possesses lesser or greater intelligence than others is races, but claiming that one has larger or smaller noses isnt.

Some might find the "exotic" looks of a race different from ones own more appealing while others may think it's unattractive or are indifferent. I cant for the life of me see where racism plays in there.

[Darth Wong]

Well, If everyone in the world is a racist to certain (as DW defines it), wouldn't we just be just be bettor off lumping the small-time racism together with what it really is?
Plain old discrimination due to looks.

No, because it is connected to race. Someone who thinks blacks are unattractive is more racist than someone who doesn't, even if he's not a member of the KKK. Moreover, all that does is allow an opportunity for an actual KKK member to say that blacks "look" stupid, hence generating an excuse for being racist without admitting to racism.

To me racism is when you hold preconceived notions about an ethnic group that isnt true (most black people are theives). But claiming that most black people have curly hair... well, that would be a statement of fact (assuming it's negroid-black, dravidians (indian black) tend to have straight hair).

Racism is discrimination based on race. Buy a dictionary. If you preferentially select people (or de-select people) because of race, that's a form of racism. Not the worst form, but a form of racism nonetheless. THAT is a fact.

Saying that race possesses lesser or greater intelligence than others is races, but claiming that one has larger or smaller noses isnt.

What's the difference? This is where we run into the inherent schizophrenia of goofy definitions of racism such as yours.

Some might find the "exotic" looks of a race different from ones own more appealing while others may think it's unattractive or are indifferent. I cant for the life of me see where racism plays in there.

Your personal refusal to accept the dictionary definition is not my problem.

[Pendragon]

Well, If everyone in the world is a racist to certain (as DW defines it), wouldn't we just be just be bettor off lumping the small-time racism together with what it really is?
Plain old discrimination due to looks.

No, because it is connected to race. Someone who thinks blacks are unattractive is more racist than someone who doesn't, even if he's not a member of the KKK. Moreover, all that does is allow an opportunity for an actual KKK member to say that blacks "look" stupid, hence generating an excuse for being racist without admitting to racism.

To me racism is when you hold preconceived notions about an ethnic group that isnt true (most black people are theives). But claiming that most black people have curly hair... well, that would be a statement of fact (assuming it's negroid-black, dravidians (indian black) tend to have straight hair).

Racism is discrimination based on race. Buy a dictionary. If you preferentially select people (or de-select people) because of race, that's a form of racism. Not the worst form, but a form of racism nonetheless. THAT is a fact.

Saying that race possesses lesser or greater intelligence than others is races, but claiming that one has larger or smaller noses isnt.

What's the difference? This is where we run into the inherent schizophrenia of goofy definitions of racism such as yours.

Some might find the "exotic" looks of a race different from ones own more appealing while others may think it's unattractive or are indifferent. I cant for the life of me see where racism plays in there.

Your personal refusal to accept the dictionary definition is not my problem.

So it's a racist opinion to claim that asian people tend to have different shaped eyes than people of a different ethnic background?

Excuse me? Did you look in the mirror lately?

Wether someone then finds this particular trait attractive or not is in no way whatsoever different from finding some other trait or feature attractive or unattractive.

Same thing with curly hair. If you find curly hair a big turn off, a lot of black people will be considred less attractive, as well as people from other ethnical groups that have curly hair.

It seems that according to your definition, simply stating that that people from a specific ethnical group tend to share somewhat similar looks is racism.

Is the only way not to be racist to claim that evryone looks the same?

[Darth Wong]

So it's a racist opinion to claim that asian people tend to have different shaped eyes than people of a different ethnic background?

No more or less racist than saying that asians tend to have neurological differences compared to other races.

Excuse me? Did you look in the mirror lately?

Yes. My eyes have a stereotypically Caucasian shape. You want pictures, asshole?

It seems that according to your definition, simply stating that that people from a specific ethnical group tend to share somewhat similar looks is racism.

No more or less racist than saying that people from a specific race tend to have more or less aptitude for math.

Is the only way not to be racist to claim that evryone looks the same?

Not discriminating would be a nice start. I notice how you completely ignored that point in your reply.

[Pendragon]

So it's a racist opinion to claim that asian people tend to have different shaped eyes than people of a different ethnic background?

No more or less racist than saying that asians tend to have neurological differences compared to other races.

Excuse me? Did you look in the mirror lately?

Yes. My eyes have a stereotypically Caucasian shape. You want pictures, asshole?

No, I'll take your word for it. But to the core of my argument, do you, or do you not agree with me that asian people tend to have different shaped eyes then caucasians for example? I suspect you do, since you described your eyes as "stereotypically caucasian". According to your definition, that makes you a racist.

It seems that according to your definition, simply stating that that people from a specific ethnical group tend to share somewhat similar looks is racism.

No more or less racist than saying that people from a specific race tend to have more or less aptitude for math.

Well, you cant prove that just by looking. Besides, mathematical aptitude is a damn hard thing to measure. Looks, on the other hand is a physical trait that can be measured (not meaning that you can measure how beatiful a nose is, only it's shape and size).

Is the only way not to be racist to claim that evryone looks the same?

Not discriminating would be a nice start. I notice how you completely ignored that point in your reply.

I think you missed my point. I didnt mean "look the same" as in "equally attractive". Attractiveness is subjective. A description of someones looks doesnt have to be.

Am I racist if I claim that you and me look different because of differing ethnical backgrounds?

[Darth Wong]

No, I'll take your word for it. But to the core of my argument, do you, or do you not agree with me that asian people tend to have different shaped eyes then caucasians for example? I suspect you do, since you described your eyes as "stereotypically caucasian". According to your definition, that makes you a racist.

You're a fucking moron. You obviously do not realize that the term "stereotype" is considered perjorative.

No more or less racist than saying that people from a specific race tend to have more or less aptitude for math.

Well, you cant prove that just by looking.

Totally irrelevant to the question of whether such a distinction exists.

Besides, mathematical aptitude is a damn hard thing to measure.

Actually, they have these things called "tests".

Looks, on the other hand is a physical trait that can be measured (not meaning that you can measure how beatiful a nose is, only it's shape and size).

You honestly think it's easier to measure looks than mathematical ability?

I think you missed my point. I didnt mean "look the same" as in "equally attractive". Attractiveness is subjective. A description of someones looks doesnt have to be.

Am I racist if I claim that you and me look different because of differing ethnical backgrounds?

You're racist if you make assumptions about someone's appearance based solely on his race without bothering to look at him first, WHICH IS PRECISELY WHAT YOU DID WITH ME WHEN YOU ASSUMED MY EYES MUST LOOK A CERTAIN WAY BECAUSE I'M ASIAN, ASSHOLE.

[Pendragon]

No, I'll take your word for it. But to the core of my argument, do you, or do you not agree with me that asian people tend to have different shaped eyes then caucasians for example? I suspect you do, since you described your eyes as "stereotypically caucasian". According to your definition, that makes you a racist.

You're a fucking moron. You obviously do not realize that the term "stereotype" is considered perjorative.

If I say "sterotypically, asians have different shaped eyes than caucasians" it's not racism, but if I phrase it as "most asians have different shaped eyes than caucasians" it is?

If so enlighten me on the differnece, it seems that the language barrier impedes me.
What about the phrasing "traditionally, asians have different shaped eyes than caucasians"?

No more or less racist than saying that people from a specific race tend to have more or less aptitude for math.

Well, you cant prove that just by looking.

Totally irrelevant to the question of whether such a distinction exists.

Besides, mathematical aptitude is a damn hard thing to measure.

Actually, they have these things called "tests".

My mistake here I think, I translated aptitude as "inherent talent" rather than "general skill".
Theres a lot of things besides gentics that influence such tests, so I dare say it isnt possible to get a 100% accurate test to prove that an ethnic group possess greater mathematical aptitude due to genetics.

Looks, on the other hand is a physical trait that can be measured (not meaning that you can measure how beatiful a nose is, only it's shape and size).

You honestly think it's easier to measure looks than mathematical ability? [/quote]

Well, all that is needed is a tape measure, basically.

I think you missed my point. I didnt mean "look the same" as in "equally attractive". Attractiveness is subjective. A description of someones looks doesnt have to be.

Am I racist if I claim that you and me look different because of differing ethnical backgrounds?

You're racist if you make assumptions about someone's appearance based solely on his race without bothering to look at him first, WHICH IS PRECISELY WHAT YOU DID WITH ME WHEN YOU ASSUMED MY EYES MUST LOOK A CERTAIN WAY BECAUSE I'M ASIAN, ASSHOLE.[/quote]

Well, that was I mistake on my part. Thanks for correcting me. Please feel free to quote anywhere where I've stated that all asian people have different shaped eyes.

You still havent answered the question, does the average asian person have different shaped eyes than the average caucasian?

Is anyone who answers "yes" a racist according to your own definition?

[Eleas]

You're a fucking moron. You obviously do not realize that the term "stereotype" is considered perjorative.

You know what, Mike? "Racist" is also considered perjorative. And yet, you can't seem to understand what's wrong in calling someone else a racist. Not only that, but the word "racist" carries a far heavier connotation than "stereotype". It makes me wonder just what makes you so self-righteous.

You're racist if you make assumptions about someone's appearance based solely on his race without bothering to look at him first, WHICH IS PRECISELY WHAT YOU DID WITH ME WHEN YOU ASSUMED MY EYES MUST LOOK A CERTAIN WAY BECAUSE I'M ASIAN, ASSHOLE.

Interesting, Mike. Should I assume he's on to something, like you did when I lost my temper? After all, aren't you getting awfully defensive?

[Darth Wong]

You're a fucking moron. You obviously do not realize that the term "stereotype" is considered perjorative.

You know what, Mike? "Racist" is also considered perjorative. And yet, you can't seem to understand what's wrong in calling someone else a racist.

Of course it's perjorative, dumb-ass! Do you think that by agreeing that there are degrees to racism, I was somehow changing my mind that it's a bad thing for someone to avoid dating black girls?

Not only that, but the word "racist" carries a far heavier connotation than "stereotype". It makes me wonder just what makes you so self-righteous.

Maybe the fact that I try to avoid discriminating on the basis of race, while too many try to invent semantic excuses to make it seem as if it's not such a bad thing to do.

You're racist if you make assumptions about someone's appearance based solely on his race without bothering to look at him first, WHICH IS PRECISELY WHAT YOU DID WITH ME WHEN YOU ASSUMED MY EYES MUST LOOK A CERTAIN WAY BECAUSE I'M ASIAN, ASSHOLE.

Interesting, Mike. Should I assume he's on to something, like you did when I lost my temper? After all, aren't you getting awfully defensive?

How can I be defensive when he wasn't accusing me of anything and was in fact on the defensive himself? Nice leap in logic, though. Interesting to see that your irrational outburst of last night was not an isolated incident. You're still harping on your moronic misinterpretation of "defensive people get angry" to "angry people are always being defensive". I guess you didn't have the brainpower to figure out what was wrong with that the first time I pointed out that it was a logical fallacy of composition, eh?

[Pendragon]

On a side note, there are things besides gentics that affect the way you look. Diet for instance. The most apparant example of this is China where average height is a lot taller in the big cities than in the poor countryside, most likely due to differences in nutrition.
Unfortunatley I dont have proof to back that up (it's pure hearsay, heard it from the Discovery channel IIRC), so I cant claim it as an absolute truth, but it's sounds plausible to me.

[Darth Wong]

On a side note, there are things besides gentics that affect the way you look. Diet for instance. The most apparant example of this is China where average height is a lot taller in the big cities than in the poor countryside, most likely due to differences in nutrition.
Unfortunatley I dont have proof to back that up (it's pure hearsay, heard it from the Discovery channel IIRC), so I cant claim it as an absolute truth, but it's sounds plausible to me.

Second-generation Japanese immigrants to North America are much taller than first-generation immigrants, so diet is probably a factor. However, they also have a higher incidence of heart disease and obesity. The wonders of the North American diet never cease

[Pendragon]

On a side note, there are things besides gentics that affect the way you look. Diet for instance. The most apparant example of this is China where average height is a lot taller in the big cities than in the poor countryside, most likely due to differences in nutrition.
Unfortunatley I dont have proof to back that up (it's pure hearsay, heard it from the Discovery channel IIRC), so I cant claim it as an absolute truth, but it's sounds plausible to me.

Second-generation Japanese immigrants to North America are much taller than first-generation immigrants, so diet is probably a factor. However, they also have a higher incidence of heart disease and obesity. The wonders of the North American diet never cease

Yikes! Did we just agree on something? Isnt that against a law of nature or something?