Teen Creationism

[NecronLord]

How can God be cruel? Punishment is punishment, if you do not want to accept this that's fine.But it is truth, and no I'm not brainwashed.I simply do not have the ability to answer every little quetion that you think are big, in great detail.You can't question what happened in the past, if you do not know the full situation.Trying to rationalize will get you nowhere if you don't include God in your rational thinking.If that were the case you'd know not to question God on such matters, and you'd know the difference between judgement and evil.

Congrats "As I can do it, by your logic I may feel free to burn your possesions, your children, your husband/wife, your parents, your neighbors, your freinds, your children, and almost everyone you know, Because I take objection to the way you live your life!! "Punisment is Punisment" Hard cheese pal, prepare to burn, and then, thanks to my kindness, burn for all eternity.

Now you have a choice of three explanitions that rationalise gods actions at Sodom

1- God cannot simply make them live lives that he likes, and is therefore not all-powerful.

2- He does not want to as he doesn't wish to interfere with their autonamy, and is therfore prepared to burn them, and then burn them for eternity. And is therfore either insane or is the opposite of the all-loving god you belive in.

3- He enjoys killing people, and is therefore by any definition EVIL

Which will it be?

[C.S.Strowbridge]

Now you have a choice of three explanitions that rationalise gods actions at Sodom

1- God cannot simply make them live lives that he likes, and is therefore not all-powerful.

2- He does not want to as he doesn't wish to interfere with their autonamy, and is therfore prepared to burn them, and then burn them for eternity. And is therfore either insane or is the opposite of the all-loving god you belive in.

3- He enjoys killing people, and is therefore by any definition EVIL

Which will it be?

Here's an old quote on the subject:

Is god willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god?
— Epicurus (341–270 BCE)

[Priesto]

I'm beginning to like these boards more, they're hilarious.God sees all and knows all, therefore he knows it is better for the innocent to be taken to the other side.He knew what was going to happen before it happened, and used this as an example.Past sins of generation affect the future generations as well.You cannot judge since only God can.Accusing God of being wicked is funny too.A loving God cannot punish the wicked?If you didn't know I'm talking about ancient times.God no longer will intervene with the activities of men, like he did in the Bible.Meaning, the actions of men will cause such destruction.We are living in the era of a wicked generation that seeks signs, and will not see them.

[Priesto]

Now you have a choice of three explanitions that rationalise gods actions at Sodom

1- God cannot simply make them live lives that he likes, and is therefore not all-powerful.

2- He does not want to as he doesn't wish to interfere with their autonamy, and is therfore prepared to burn them, and then burn them for eternity. And is therfore either insane or is the opposite of the all-loving god you belive in.

3- He enjoys killing people, and is therefore by any definition EVIL

Which will it be?

Here's an old quote on the subject:

Is god willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god?
— Epicurus (341–270 BCE)

It's funny you bring that quote up.It's a silly quote and one that is illogical(mind you). I've replied to this before and I will again.God did not allow Evil into existance so he may prevent it.God allowed Evil into existance so he may use it as a tool for good.Now God doesn't in the technical sense, satan does so don't take it the wrong way.It's like using a sharp knife to cut out a tumor.Jesus is the surgeon and satan unknowingly is the tool.Every trial we go through in life is a test to make us stronger.Satan being the insane being he is tries to tempt us.But before he can do this, he must answer to God.God knows what we are capable of bearing, satan does not.So I hope I was clear.

[Zoink]

Now you have a choice of three explanitions that rationalise gods actions at Sodom
...
3- He enjoys killing people, and is therefore by any definition EVIL

You have to define evil. If evil is defined as "something that is against God's will", then God's actions (whatever they may be) are not evil.

[Mr. B]

Priesto, do you have any argument that doesn't start with "God says..." or "God knows all..." or "men are born evil cuz god says so".

Tell me why god ISNT a malicious, spiteful, mass-murdering, genocidal, fascist dictator.

[Eleas]

I'm beginning to like these boards more, they're hilarious.

Indeed, laughing uncontrollably is common among madmen, so you don't have to feel bad, it's perfectly normal.

God sees all and knows all,

Prove it.

<snip unproven assumptions based on above statement>

[C.S.Strowbridge]

You have to define evil. If evil is defined as "something that is against God's will", then God's actions (whatever they may be) are not evil.

That's an incredibly stupid definition.

All it is is a setup for circular reasoning.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

If you didn't know I'm talking about ancient times.God no longer will intervene with the activities of men, like he did in the Bible.

A smart man would realize this is evidence that god doesn't exist. Back before we had the tools and the understanding to explain our environment we saw god everywhere. Now that we do have them, god is strangely quiet. Either god changed, and perfection can't change, or he never existed.

[ArmorPierce]

Looks like that we've been undersiege by the creationists while I was gone. See, I knew what I was saying when I said that we had to make the pre-emptive strike.

[ArmorPierce]

Wow, these creationists arguments aren't that rational. All they are saying is based on the Bible and that God can't do no wrong. You can't argue with them if because they wont stop and listen because they think that God is all powerful, the Bible is the word of God (No you can't use words from the Bible to prove the existence of God) and that their God can't do no wrong.

[Darth Wong]

Of course. You can't argue rationally with a creationist because he doesn't use the normal progression of:

facts -> analysis -> conclusion.

Instead, a typical creationist uses the progression of:

conclusion -> facts -> analysis

He starts with the conclusion, then he looks at the facts (if we're lucky; some of them stop at step #1), and then he tries to concoct an explanation for those facts without ever questioning the pre-ordained conclusion.

[IDMR]

Of course. You can't argue rationally with a creationist because he doesn't use the normal progression of:

facts -> analysis -> conclusion.

Instead, a typical creationist uses the progression of:

conclusion -> facts -> analysis

He starts with the conclusion, then he looks at the facts (if we're lucky; some of them stop at step #1), and then he tries to concoct an explanation for those facts without ever questioning the pre-ordained conclusion.

Damn, and here I was, thinking that this mode of reasoning died with Dialectical Materialism.

[starfury]

Wow, these creationists arguments aren't that rational. All they are saying is based on the Bible and that God can't do no wrong. You can't argue with them if because they wont stop and listen because they think that God is all powerful, the Bible is the word of God (No you can't use words from the Bible to prove the existence of God) and that their God can't do no wrong.

all too true, essantially they keep repeating the argument that God is perfect and can do no wrong, no matter how much evidence to the contray you provide. very close-minded.

Is god willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god?
&#8212; Epicurus (341&#8211;270 BCE)

that was nice quote [/quote]

[Priesto]

You people wonder why I think theses boards are funny,Ignorance.I listen to your arguments and they are flawed.You cop out and say we're close minded?only those who fear what they cannot understand remain close minded.I don't remember saying men were born evil either.Judgement can appear cruel, but that is what someone gets for working against God and rejecting Jesus.The indidvidual must find the way to God thereself, so I can only do so much.Rational thinking would say that using bad language in their replys is immature.Putting God on the same level as us is irrational.Using limited knowledge to try and accuse an unlimited God is also irrational.Now would someone reply to my prior post?

[PeZook]

You people wonder why I think theses boards are funny,Ignorance.I listen to your arguments and they are flawed.You cop out and say we're close minded?only those who fear what they cannot understand remain close minded.

You're the one who fears what he cannot understand, so you have to invent a fairy tale character to conveniently explain everything to you.

Judgement can appear cruel, but that is what someone gets for working against God and rejecting Jesus.

Suppose there was a man on earth who was noble and just, caring and loving. A man who helped the poor, loved his family, never hurt anyone, and never allowed others to hurt anyone. A man who was tolerant, who made everyone around him feel peace. And, just for kicks, let's say that somehow he managed to end all the world conflicts and eliminate poverty and hunger. But let's say that this man was an atheist. Should he, by your moral code, go to hell? And what about a murderer who, say, killed that man, but truly believed in Jesus? Should he go to heaven?

Putting God on the same level as us is irrational.

Of course it is. He's a fairy tale character.

God allowed Evil into existance so he may use it as a tool for good.Now God doesn't in the technical sense, satan does so don't take it the wrong way.It's like using a sharp knife to cut out a tumor.

Why did he need that "sharp knife" in the first place? It was evil that made it "necessary" to commit his atrocities. Then why did he allow it onto the world if he is omnipotent?

[Priesto]

You people wonder why I think theses boards are funny,Ignorance.I listen to your arguments and they are flawed.You cop out and say we're close minded?only those who fear what they cannot understand remain close minded.

You're the one who fears what he cannot understand, so you have to invent a fairy tale character to conveniently explain everything to you.

Judgement can appear cruel, but that is what someone gets for working against God and rejecting Jesus.

Suppose there was a man on earth who was noble and just, caring and loving. A man who helped the poor, loved his family, never hurt anyone, and never allowed others to hurt anyone. A man who was tolerant, who made everyone around him feel peace. And, just for kicks, let's say that somehow he managed to end all the world conflicts and eliminate poverty and hunger. But let's say that this man was an atheist. Should he, by your moral code, go to hell? And what about a murderer who, say, killed that man, but truly believed in Jesus? Should he go to heaven?

Putting God on the same level as us is irrational.

Of course it is. He's a fairy tale character.

God allowed Evil into existance so he may use it as a tool for good.Now God doesn't in the technical sense, satan does so don't take it the wrong way.It's like using a sharp knife to cut out a tumor.

Why did he need that "sharp knife" in the first place? It was evil that made it "necessary" to commit his atrocities. Then why did he allow it onto the world if he is omnipotent?

I never said he needs it.This is how he made it, since God knows his own creation better than it knows itself.Man allows the atrocities to occur, since all man must do is call on the Lord.But he doesn't, which is why the world is the way it is.Your example of a noble man is illogical.Jesus is true peace, how can this atheist have true peace? he wouldn't.What you've described would never happen and the man wouldn't kill in these days anyways.Today, it's all about spiritual warfare.That'd be braking a commandment anyways.Basically the man would go to hell, knowing better yet commiting the act anyways is inexusable.Lighter punishment for someone who doesn't know better.To believe in Jesus and to make him Lord of your life, are two different things.

[Eleas]

<snip intolerant BS>

I guess then, Priesto, since you are obviously unable to counter my points, I'll just have to accept your implicit surrender. Concession accepted.

[Zoink]

You have to define evil. If evil is defined as "something that is against God's will", then God's actions (whatever they may be) are not evil.

That's an incredibly stupid definition.

All it is is a setup for circular reasoning.

How is it stupid? Show me the circular reasoning.

If I created *everything* then I could define evil that way. I could say "humans killing other humans is against my will, so I label it evil". Tomorrow I could change my mind and say "killing is OK now because I just realized that everyone ends up in paradise anyway, so its no longer evil". God on the otherhand can do what he wants and not be evil regardless of what he told his followers.

For example: I can tell my dog "sleeping on the couch is *bad*", yet I can sleep on the couch and its not bad... get it?

I'm not agreeing with the creationists. Simply stating that if I was deluded into following them, I'd have to get my moral code from God, so good and evil would be defined in terms of what he wants and not common sense.

[NecronLord]

You people wonder why I think theses boards are funny,Ignorance.I listen to your arguments and they are flawed.You cop out and say we're close minded?only those who fear what they cannot understand remain close minded.I don't remember saying men were born evil either.Judgement can appear cruel, but that is what someone gets for working against God and rejecting Jesus.The indidvidual must find the way to God thereself, so I can only do so much.Rational thinking would say that using bad language in their replys is immature.Putting God on the same level as us is irrational.Using limited knowledge to try and accuse an unlimited God is also irrational.Now would someone reply to my prior post?

Ignorance? Right... Ignorance is, by your definition, seeing the world in a logical way?

Judgement can appear cruel. Excellent In that case may I again praise High preist Ciaphus, and to a lesser extent govenor Pilate for their godly taste in punisment.

[NecronLord]

Now you have a choice of three explanitions that rationalise gods actions at Sodom
...
3- He enjoys killing people, and is therefore by any definition EVIL

You have to define evil. If evil is defined as "something that is against God's will", then God's actions (whatever they may be) are not evil.

Nope a rational definition of evil is "something which causes unessesery suffering." Evil is not against the will of god, The which hunters were doing the will of god... [ Leveticus 20:27]
So therefore
Willofgod != evil
Willofgod = killingwitches
Killingwitches != evil

[NecronLord]

[quote="Priesto]
I never said he needs it.This is how he made it, since God knows his own creation better than it knows itself.Man allows the atrocities to occur, since all man must do is call on the Lord.But he doesn't, which is why the world is the way it is.Your example of a noble man is illogical.Jesus is true peace, how can this atheist have true peace? he wouldn't.What you've described would never happen and the man wouldn't kill in these days anyways.Today, it's all about spiritual warfare.That'd be braking a commandment anyways.Basically the man would go to hell, knowing better yet commiting the act anyways is inexusable.Lighter punishment for someone who doesn't know better.To believe in Jesus and to make him Lord of your life, are two different things.[/quote]

Humm prove that he knows it, I seem to remember that he thinks insects have four legs.

So if everyone spent all their time pryaing, then that is your perfect world? Can't you go and become a monk?

[Sothis]

You people wonder why I think theses boards are funny,Ignorance.I listen to your arguments and they are flawed.You cop out and say we're close minded?only those who fear what they cannot understand remain close minded.I don't remember saying men were born evil either.Judgement can appear cruel, but that is what someone gets for working against God and rejecting Jesus.The indidvidual must find the way to God thereself, so I can only do so much.Rational thinking would say that using bad language in their replys is immature.Putting God on the same level as us is irrational.Using limited knowledge to try and accuse an unlimited God is also irrational.Now would someone reply to my prior post?

I consider myself to be a Christian, and I, I'm sure like most Christians (save for Fundamentalists) would not be able to justify (or even want to justify) the destruction of a whole city for the actions of a few. No one has the right to impress their religion on others. I take it you believe that Hindus and Muslims and Buddas are bad?

We're human beings with minds of our own, and capable of determining for ourselves what justice and judgement is. As I said, I believe in God, but I don't believe that we should consider ourselves incapable of judgement. God gave us the power to think and to reason didn't he? You can't cry when we start to then think on our own.

[Resident Creationist]

But don't worry, The ever so good Lot threw his own virgin Daughters outside to the crowd. Nice. and even better, after they have been thoroughly raped over he doesn't let them back in, and leaves them to die in hell fire and brimstone, BECAUSE THAY ARE NO LONGER VIRGINS AND HAVE NO VALUE TO HIM. Nice guy, a paragon of virtue.

where did you get that from? the Biblical account says that the Angels then showed themselves and scattered the crowds.

Also, if lot was the most holy person in that town, then it DOES show that it's a pretty sick place. Afterward they left, and the daughters then decided to get their father drunk and sleep with him, and they both had children from their father.

So if everyone spent all their time pryaing, then that is your perfect world? Can't you go and become a monk?

WRONG, praying is an important part of Christianity, but isn't exactly as formal as ohter religions, you can pray at any time, even while driving, it's simply the act of talking to God be it in your head or out loud etc. But, Jesus would much rather have people be ACTIVE than passive, Jesus idn't even visit various monostaries and groups that were out in the mountains praying, he visited "sinners" and came with a message that all were sinners, which made the religious leaders who had become EXTREMELY legalistic very angry, leading up to them handing him over to the Romans.

[NecronLord]

But don't worry, The ever so good Lot threw his own virgin Daughters outside to the crowd. Nice. and even better, after they have been thoroughly raped over he doesn't let them back in, and leaves them to die in hell fire and brimstone, BECAUSE THAY ARE NO LONGER VIRGINS AND HAVE NO VALUE TO HIM. Nice guy, a paragon of virtue.

where did you get that from? the Biblical account says that the Angels then showed themselves and scattered the crowds.

Also, if lot was the most holy person in that town, then it DOES show that it's a pretty sick place. Afterward they left, and the daughters then decided to get their father drunk and sleep with him, and they both had children from their father.

So if everyone spent all their time pryaing, then that is your perfect world? Can't you go and become a monk?

WRONG, praying is an important part of Christianity, but isn't exactly as formal as ohter religions, you can pray at any time, even while driving, it's simply the act of talking to God be it in your head or out loud etc. But, Jesus would much rather have people be ACTIVE than passive, Jesus idn't even visit various monostaries and groups that were out in the mountains praying, he visited "sinners" and came with a message that all were sinners, which made the religious leaders who had become EXTREMELY legalistic very angry, leading up to them handing him over to the Romans.

Look for an old copy of the bible, one which has not been politically doctored. I once found one with every incidence of sexism doctored out. In older copies you will find the alternate version. In newer vesions he merely offers his daughteres and then the angels strike the crowd blind, in older copies they do this as they leave, after the angels have had their way with the daughters. Furthermore his wife is turned into a pillar of rock-salt for looking back at the distruction of the city, WHY? WHAT PURPOSE DOES THAT SERVE?

Just out of curiosity, why is Lot holy?

I think you'll find that jesus is belived to have spent time in religious orders after the return from egypt, and mary is belived to have gone to one as well. See the dead sea scorlls. In all the versions I have (four). The angels blind the crowd. Just another bit of punisment before their burning, followed by further roasting for all eternity.

I am fully aware of Christian praying techniques, and by the way the amount of formality requitred varies. Eastern Orthadoxy for example is far stricter on it than protestantism (the branch i guess you belong to)

Actually although the preists were very corrupt, and Jesus was protesting against this. The main reason for the excecution of jesus would have been his connections with simon the Zealot, and Judas Escariot. who were both connected to rabidly anti-roman groups, such as the zealots. Quite how anti-roman jesus himself was will never really be known, as any real evidence of it would have been removed from the bible in the constantinian period. The reason the preists wanted Jesus dead was primerily fear of his anti-roman tendancies leading to the destruction of Judea, as the chances of the temple guard and a few terrorist zealots defeating the tree legions stationed nearby were very low. {This did of course happen in the later revolt, and Judea was indeed destroyed, Jehova of course was silent at this time again showing a stunning lack of concern for his ' chosen people '}