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I'm in a discussion in another forum (https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopi ... start=3925) involving prejudice against Muslims. Someone (their name is "The Alma Mater", to give them credit for the following quote) said "What Muslims need is something positive to show for themselves to balance the bad." I took up the challenge. I've already posted links on historical Muslim art and innovations. However, I'm having a hard time finding good contemporary stuff. The news tends to be about either persecution of Muslims or horrible things done by Muslims. So I'm looking for sources on positive contemporary achievements by Muslims, be they political, artistic, scientific, philosophical, humanitarian...). Not that I expect it to convince die hard bigots, and it really shouldn't be necessary to prove that Muslims are actually not all bad, but I just want to prove the bigots wrong and rub it in their faces.

Much appreciated, thank you.

I honestly want to know how it is possible not to find examples from say, al Jazeera or the English language media of say, a moderate Muslim state like Malaysia or Indonesia. I think that says something. Just listing Nobel laureates I think doesn't really count, you want to find ordinary achievements by ordinary people, not the most elite of the elite.

After reading that thread, I would be interested to know if you have engaged with and had discourse with Malay Raya and possibly Kingdomkungfu on the nature of Islam and its practice. Your bringing up of the Nobel prize winners and the fact that you could not even quote positive events from the english language media of muslim countries or from such sources as CAIR, who have all the motivation in the world to promote a positive image of islam using google strikes me as really interesting - how much do you genuinely know about Islam beyond idealistic pronouncements that all are to be judged as individuals?

Not that I necessarily have a vested interest in running down islam or propping it up other than being able to first hand observe the fruits of bigotry and backwardness directly attributable to Islamic practice. But I suspect a lot of the good acomplishments you attribute to muslims have as much to do with Islam as the same reasoning some use to excuse Islam as practiced in third world countries: not as much as the other cultural factors.

To state it again: you cannot possibly prove the bigots wrong by citing nobel prize winners! did you honestly think that they are unaware of the existence of such people? That's a laughably shallow view of this kind of prejudice.

I know some basic information about the Islamic faith and a moderate amount about history, especially recent history, in the Middle East, but I'll be the first to concede that its not my area of expertise.

But my point is not to defend Islam as a faith- people have the right to practice their religion as long as they're not hurting anybody but its not my faith. I'm not trying to defend Islamic doctrine, or condemn it for that matter. I am trying to show the accomplishments of individual Muslims to argue against the idea that Muslims are bad people. To me, there is a distinction between criticism of the doctrine and hatred of the individual people who happen to believe it.

And I don't see why you are attacking me for my belief that all people should be judged as individuals. I'd say that's the only position you can take that does not equate to prejudice and discrimination.

Also, I think you are underestimating some peoples' stupidity. I actually had one guy ask "Can you name a positive contribution they provided in the last ten years?" (they meaning Muslims). Yeah, they may know stuff like Nobel Laureates (or not- how many average people pay attention to Nobel Prize winners beyond maybe the Nobel Peace Prize), but that doesn't mean they won't ignore it. Actually, that was the point where I bowed out of the debate because it had just become too stupid, I felt I had made my point, and I thought continuing to entertain such idiocy would be validating it.

Really, this started over something very simple- as I said at the start of this thread, someone said "What Muslims need is something positive to show for themselves...". So I provided some examples. Yes, this should be obvious to anyone who isn't a raging bigot and they may already be aware of this stuff, but I wanted to make a point of how obviously stupid general condemnation of a group of over a billion human beings is.

Why you should take this as me defending Islamic doctrine I don't know.

Edit: Basically, I don't feel you have to share or approve of a doctrine in order to respect the rights, accomplishments, and humanity of those who do.

AniThyng wrote:I honestly want to know how it is possible not to find examples from say, al Jazeera or the English language media of say, a moderate Muslim state like Malaysia or Indonesia. I think that says something. Just listing Nobel laureates I think doesn't really count, you want to find ordinary achievements by ordinary people, not the most elite of the elite.

Well, I looked through Google News just now, and a lot of what came up is ISIS stuff or discrimination against Muslims, like I said.

Also, I am aware that their are some more moderate Muslim states, but I wanted specific examples, not just "This country isn't a complete shit hole".

And yes, accomplishments by ordinary people would be great, but seldom make international headlines. I'd have to fall back on relating personal anecdotes, and I'm leery of discussing my, or my friends', personal lives on internet forums with bigoted strangers.

Well I'm sure all of these bigots you're arguing against could bring up an example of a token muslim friend they have as evidence that they don't discriminate against "individuals" who meet some arbitrary standard of "not being like other muslims", so I really don't see how bringing up a few exceptional individuals, quite a few of whom are not really meaningfully identified with the majority of the practitioners of their shared faith helps in countering broad assertions about general muslim society.

I admit though that finding positive acomplishments that's explicitly tied to the group identity of muslims and not just someone who happens to be muslim is pretty hard. (Well, I suppose most muslims are functional members of society. Then again, so are most bigots, so what does that prove?) Like I said, I think that says something in of itself.

Here's the community section of my national english language tabloid. Let me know if anything in there of the feel good stories helps in finding something positive muslims as a community do:

http://www.thestar.com.my/Metro/Community/

This is rather late, but it is interesting that only two Nobel prizes in science have been given to Muslims. This is a religion with over a billion adherents, 1/7th of the world population. Judiasm by contrast, with .02 percent of the world population, has won more than 1 out of every 5 Nobel prizes in science. Even in peace prizes Jewish winners have won 9% of the total.

Way late to this thread, but try King Mohammed V of Morocco.

My buddy Mo(hammed) is a practicing Muslim-American who volunteered to fly to NYC at his own expense to help clean up the 9/11 site fifteen years ago. They refused him, out of concern for his own safety, which was probably for the best, but he did offer. Things were a little crazy at the time.

Local Muslim family in my area has run a very nice restaurant for over 30 years. They engage in a lot of fundraising activities and charities from injured local law enforcement officers and fire fighters to sick kids. They do it for people of all faiths and nationalities. Absolutely I have always felt welcome in their establishment.

Which makes it really suck that someone gunned down the patriarch a few years ago in said restaurant in what was probably a hate crime. But the family carries on.

Of course, they won't win over any bigots because they're an unknown family in a county of Indiana, not anyone famous.

Broomstick wrote:Local Muslim family in my area has run a very nice restaurant for over 30 years. They engage in a lot of fundraising activities and charities from injured local law enforcement officers and fire fighters to sick kids. They do it for people of all faiths and nationalities. Absolutely I have always felt welcome in their establishment.

Which makes it really suck that someone gunned down the patriarch a few years ago in said restaurant in what was probably a hate crime. But the family carries on.

Of course, they won't win over any bigots because they're an unknown family in a county of Indiana, not anyone famous.

They wouldn't win any bigots over even if they were. At best, they'll insist that nice, hard-working family are the exception to the rule. At worst...well, you know....

I don't hold with their religious beliefs, and I don't have to. I do have to respect that they are just ordinary folk trying to make an honest living and contribute to their community. I gather most people would agree with that.

Unfortunately, the few who don't agree and never will happen to speak the loudest. They always speak the loudest.

The problem is that many people who accomplish great things often do so despite their religious upbringing, not because of it.

biostem wrote:The problem is that many people who accomplish great things often do so despite their religious upbringing, not because of it.

This. One of India's greatest politicians was a Muslim; hated by the backwards people for secularizing India. That's how it is.

still it's in no way unique to islam and we shouldn't condem millions of people to in essense to be killed as infidels because they don't happen to share the beliefs most westerns countries (especially USA) have.

We should judge people for their actions not the actions of the extremist elements of the religion they're a part of.

FYI:I'm a Christian of Lutherian domination in case someone wants to accuse me of doing this for selfish reasons. I got no stake in the matter but still I belive we shouldn't be hasty to judge millions of people.

still it's in no way unique to islam and we shouldn't condem millions of people to in essense to be killed as infidels because they don't happen to share the beliefs most westerns countries (especially USA) have.

I'm trying to parse this section of your post... When you say "we shouldn't condem millions of people to in essense to be killed as infidels", by whom would these people be killed? If it's other muslims, then how is that the West's fault? The West certainly wouldn't kill these people for being "infidels". And when you say "they don't happen to share the beliefs most westerns countries (especially USA) have", which beliefs are you referring to? If it's things like you should treat homosexuals as human beings, or that women should be treated as equals to men, then I must insist that these *are* the better way to conduct a society. You don't have to like everyone, you need only recognize their right to exist and that you can't just go throwing such people off roofs because your holy book says they're bad.

biostem wrote:

still it's in no way unique to islam and we shouldn't condem millions of people to in essense to be killed as infidels because they don't happen to share the beliefs most westerns countries (especially USA) have.

I'm trying to parse this section of your post... When you say "we shouldn't condem millions of people to in essense to be killed as infidels", by whom would these people be killed? If it's other muslims, then how is that the West's fault? The West certainly wouldn't kill these people for being "infidels". And when you say "they don't happen to share the beliefs most westerns countries (especially USA) have", which beliefs are you referring to? If it's things like you should treat homosexuals as human beings, or that women should be treated as equals to men, then I must insist that these *are* the better way to conduct a society. You don't have to like everyone, you need only recognize their right to exist and that you can't just go throwing such people off roofs because your holy book says they're bad.

what beliefs am I referring to that Jeesus of Nazareth was the son of God and similar core tennents that can safely said to be universal to all muslims regardles of orgin. While muslim dominant countries tend to have social issues that need to be worked thru those issues aren't universal to islam and a muslim born and raised in the US might not belive in those.

As for the first part are you being intentionally ignorant to not have noticed the prelevant notion that muslim=terrorist and therefore it's a-ok to wipe them out, that's what I meant by "killed as infidels" since you're in essense killing them because of their religion not their actions.

Err.... in fact Muslims DO NOT believe Jesus of Nazareth is the son of God. They accept him as a man and a prophet, not as anything more than that.

You want an example that will resonate with ordinary working people? The doner kebab. Traditional late-night meal bought after staggering out of a pub after Last Orders all over the British Isles, and probably many parts of North America as well.

Pretty sure no one in North American is going to call them a "doner kebab" because that's just a little close to "Donner kebab" which is just... unappetizing the extreme.

Zaune wrote:You want an example that will resonate with ordinary working people? The doner kebab. Traditional late-night meal bought after staggering out of a pub after Last Orders all over the British Isles, and probably many parts of North America as well.

It's donair, by the way, pronounced almost exactly the way it's spelled. They're quite common in Nova Scotia, particularly Halifax, one of the cities I'd love to retire to, if I can ever retire.

Every takeaway menu I've ever seen in Britain has it as "doner", but anyway.

It's also doner in Australia. I think NS might be the outlier here.

Broomstick wrote:Err.... in fact Muslims DO NOT believe Jesus of Nazareth is the son of God. They accept him as a man and a prophet, not as anything more than that.

I know but that's kind of core to christian belief isn't it?

That was my point, Broomstick, just because Muslims don't belive that Jeesus was the son of God doesn't mean we should condem every single muslim in the world as unrepentent terrorist worth nothing but a summary execution (in fact I don't belive even terrorist deserve summary executions but that's besides the point) or more specifically it was a example of a belief that's enough of a core part of christianity that you assume all christians belive that.

Basically my point was just some these positives things have been done dispite person being muslim it doesn't mean they're irrelevant to the discussion, since a muslim who is rational enough to not allow his religious beliefs chain him/her to a medival mindset is still a muslim.