DISTRUST IN NUMBERS

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TrashMan
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Re: DISTRUST IN NUMBERS

Postby TrashMan » 2015-04-24 05:39am

TrashMan wrote:
Eleas wrote:Well, there are rumblings. Seems the EU will be toast, so good riddance.


Too bad for Thrawn. Everyone seems to like that one.
Other than that..I agree

TrashMan wrote:All I know is that turbolasers never impressed me or struck me as redicolously powerful as I hear people claim them to be. They come off no stronger or weaker than 99% of spaceship canons from other universes.

Well, unless you look at what they can do in a quantifiable manner, which is my point.


Which is not really much different from any other similar weapon.
The effects on hitting another warships hull, in terms of explosion size and damage and generally pretty much the same.

But all series are rife with inconcistencies. In the beginning of TNG, a phaser or photon torpedo would vaporize a ship.
Then it went to (after taking 2-3 hits) "Shield down to 12%! We cant take more!" (proceeds to take another dozen hits) "Sheilds failing!" .. Someone was REALLY bad at math.



Heh. Ok, you made the point persuasively. Although can you honestly say that the Anakin seen in Episode III would not be just that credulous?


Well.... :|
you got a point there :lol:



Allright. Then I don't see what your objection really means, since advancing faster doesn't really mean you'll ever come close to catching up.


That depends. Does one really have to catch up or it just enough to find out the ways to exploit gained knowledge? Is there a big gulf to catch up? How big is it?



http://www.strusoft.com/about-us
Anyone with Google and five minutes to spare can link me to StruSoft, where I work as a programmer. And anyone with even cursory knowledge of engineering would flatly dispute your idea about size not mattering. Unless you have the Force as your ally, in which case I'm going to deny I ever disputed anything you said.


Allright.
I wasn't being serious.

I acknowledge that building big requires advanced material engineering - assuming one uses the same construction methods. After all, with GRAVITY GENERATORS and INERTIAL DAMPENERS, those calculations about mass and forces acting upon the ship don't really work that well.
If you reduce a ships mass my a factor of 1000, suddenly everything else become MUCH simpler.



I agree. I just don't see why the EU would be a particularly heinous offender, compared to, say, Trek or Stargate.


Where did you get the impression I actually liked ST or SG additions?


We don't even know how SW deflectors work or how strong they are. For all we know SW may have never even figured frequencies.

Principle of parsimony. Frequencies aren't magic, and nothing says SW technology is frequency based, so why would it that vulnerability extend to


Still not convinced.
We simply don't know enough, especially not to assume what is known or not known by characters.



Moving goalposts. The transporters we talked about were clearly the ones bypassing shields, the ones causing irreparable cellular damage. They have not used them again, and likely will not magically do so in any conflict.


In an all-out war for survival? There would be people willing to risk it.
And again, you don't need to teleport people.
bombs.
Holographics warriors.
Drones.
A virus.


TrashMan wrote:Because just because it works both ways, it doesn't make it any less true?

It's true. It's just strange that it's a truth you would trot out that damages your "side" as well as my own, but one that you wouldn't apply to your own "side" until I pointed it out.


I did apply it to my "side" (insomuch that I have a side). If I didn't, I wouldn't be pointing out the glaring plot holes in Trek all the time.

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Re: DISTRUST IN NUMBERS

Postby Tribble » 2015-04-24 03:11pm

For one, ST seems more advanced in that regard.


How? Luke's hand was identical in looks and function to his old one. Ditto for Nog's leg. If the replacement part is as at least as effective as the part that it is replacing, then there is no meaningful difference over the technology used.

Healing without leaving any scars (even burns), tissue regeneration, and all kinds of weird s****


Let's be specific here: skin regeneration seems to be a federation specialty. However, there are plenty of instances in Star Trek where they are not able to regenerate organs, some of which I have already listed. To repeat:

They were unable to regenerate Picard's heart, which is why he had to have it replaced with an artificial one.
Geordi's eyes could not be fixed via biological regeneration, which is why he had his visor (and later had his eyes augmented with artificial components)
Worf's spine injury was considered untreatable with conventional technology at the time, and the procedure used to repair it was a highly dangerous experiment that almost got him killed.
Nog's leg was replaced with an artificial one.

and all kinds of weird s****


Exotic treatments does not translate to equivalency or superiority. You can't say "they fixed the transporter accident / exotic disease, therefore Star Trek has superior medicine to Star Wars" because we've never seen things like transporter accidents or exotic diseases taking place in Star Wars. We've only seen how they treat physical injuries, and IMO their abilities are at least the equivalent of ST treatments, just different.

Their operations are fast


Vader's surgery only took a few minutes, which is pretty impressive considering he had 3 limbs chopped off and practically his entire body both inside and out was burned to a crisp. I don't see Star Trek medicine being any faster than that.

and painless


...unless it involves childbirth, the pain of which is apparently beyond the capabilities of ST or SW to treat.

Remember that Anakin was deliberately operated on without being anesthetized because Palpatine wanted him to use the pain as a fuel source for the Dark Side.

And ST medicine WOULD be able to so something after.


So could Star Wars. We know that they could make artificial limbs that look and act like normal limbs but in Vader's case they deliberately chose not to. This is presumably because Vader was rebuilt for combat, we do know that his armour was resistant to blaster fire and lightsabers.

And again, Anakin would now what Palapatine did. That would only cause him to hate him more and be LESS obedient, not more.


Yes, Vader was indeed well aware of what happened to him. Then Palpatine lied to his face that he was responsible for Padme's death, and just stood there smiling while Vader wrecked everything around him. Palpatine wants Vader to hate him and everything else as much as possible because hatred fuels the dark side.

The thing is, at this point Vader didn't stand a chance against Palpatine on his own, and they both knew it. Even if he hated Palpatine with all his guts, Vader's choice was to either obey Palpatine, or be killed. Only in ESB does Vader start to form his own plans, and that's because he realized that Luke's potential combined with his own would be enough to overthrow Palpatine.

And again, why would Vader care about his old appearance? As far as he was concerned Anakin was dead at that point, and with Padme being dead, their unborn child being dead (or so he believed) and Obi-Wan now "turned" against him, he had no reason to want to keep up that persona any longer. Vader's new look enhanced his physical presence and mystique, which is something he'd probably like anyways.

And wouldn't "robotizing" Vader make him weaker? After all, the Force is the energy produced by all living things. Not robot parts. With less of his biological self, wouldn't he be producing less of that energy?


Yes, that's exactly what happened. Vader's max potential was cut from being 2x Palpatine to ~80% or so. Luke's potential was probably reduced a bit when his hand was cut off (though nowhere near as reduced as Vader's, obviously) . However:

a) we don't know if midichlorians (the part that gives access to the Force) would reproduce in artificially grown tissue. If they did, then perhaps Vader's max potential could have been restored. If not, then he would be just as crippled Force-wise, even if his normal appearance was restored.
b) For 99.9999%+ of the Star Wars universe inhabitants, it wouldn't matter. Most people aren't able to use the Force anyways, and since there is no practical difference between a biologically grown part and an artificial one (even in looks), why would they care? In fact, one could argue that a purely mechanical part would be an advantage seeing as it would be easier to replace and maintain (though obviously msot people would be reluctant to rip their limbs off for artificial ones just because of that).
c) Seeing as Star Trek also uses artificial technology as well, Vader likely wouldn't have been better off Force-Wise.
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Re: DISTRUST IN NUMBERS

Postby Adam Reynolds » 2015-04-24 04:10pm

Tribble wrote:Yes, Vader was indeed well aware of what happened to him. Then Palpatine lied to his face that he was responsible for Padme's death, and just stood there smiling while Vader wrecked everything around him. Palpatine wants Vader to hate him and everything else as much as possible because hatred fuels the dark side.

The thing is, at this point Vader didn't stand a chance against Palpatine on his own, and they both knew it. Even if he hated Palpatine with all his guts, Vader's choice was to either obey Palpatine, or be killed. Only in ESB does Vader start to form his own plans, and that's because he realized that Luke's potential combined with his own would be enough to overthrow Palpatine.

This is always the way the Sith have operated. Dooku would have killed Palpatine if he had the means. Palpatine killed Plaguies in his sleep.

As for Vader's appearance, is there any evidence that Star Trek would even be capable of keeping him alive? I don't recall ever seeing them save someone with no limbs and third degree burns over his entire body.

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Re: DISTRUST IN NUMBERS

Postby Borgholio » 2015-04-24 04:12pm

As for Vader's appearance, is there any evidence that Star Trek would even be capable of keeping him alive? I don't recall ever seeing them save someone with no limbs and third degree burns over his entire body.


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Re: DISTRUST IN NUMBERS

Postby Adam Reynolds » 2015-04-24 04:25pm

Borgholio wrote:Captain Christopher Pike.

And yet he was only able to communicate through flashing lights. Vader was fully combat capable, that is hardly the same thing.

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Re: DISTRUST IN NUMBERS

Postby Borgholio » 2015-04-24 04:29pm

They were able to SAVE him...not reconstruct him so he was as good as new. In that regard, SW tech is definitely superior.
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Re: DISTRUST IN NUMBERS

Postby jwl » 2015-04-26 10:13am

Okay, first, superman doesn't get his power from sunlight as you or I know it. He gets it from "yellow sun energy", which is not the same thing as yellow light, or he'd be able to power up from a yellow lamp. He gets powered down by "red sun energy", which, again, isn't the same as red light, or you'd be able to power him down with a red lamp, not those highly advanced beam things you need to borrow from Apokolips. In supermen they almost always talk about "yellow sun radiation" or "yellow sun energy" but almost never talk about "yellow light". They are two different things. Yes, it doesn't exist in the real world or if it does it is undetectable, but this is DC, not the real world.
If superman really had the power the sun gives off he would have roughly the same power to work with as a small tree does. This obviously contradicts the entire point of superman.

On the note of different scenes giving different values, well, this site does try to work out some kind of semi-consistent picture but basically you're right. That's why you need to look at multiple showings and make a decision. Anyway, why is this in debate help?

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Re: DISTRUST IN NUMBERS

Postby TrashMan » 2015-04-27 05:56am

Borgholio wrote:They were able to SAVE him...not reconstruct him so he was as good as new. In that regard, SW tech is definitely superior.


Pike is early ToS era.
That's ancient by Trek standards

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Re: DISTRUST IN NUMBERS

Postby TrashMan » 2015-04-27 05:59am

jwl wrote:Okay, first, superman doesn't get his power from sunlight as you or I know it. He gets it from "yellow sun energy", which is not the same thing as yellow light, or he'd be able to power up from a yellow lamp. He gets powered down by "red sun energy", which, again, isn't the same as red light, or you'd be able to power him down with a red lamp, not those highly advanced beam things you need to borrow from Apokolips. In supermen they almost always talk about "yellow sun radiation" or "yellow sun energy" but almost never talk about "yellow light". They are two different things. Yes, it doesn't exist in the real world or if it does it is undetectable, but this is DC, not the real world.
If superman really had the power the sun gives off he would have roughly the same power to work with as a small tree does. This obviously contradicts the entire point of superman.

On the note of different scenes giving different values, well, this site does try to work out some kind of semi-consistent picture but basically you're right. That's why you need to look at multiple showings and make a decision. Anyway, why is this in debate help?


What do you think light is?
Energy radiating from the sun, that's what.
You say that what powers him is a different type of energy, but it changes nothing really.
The sun is still the source, the amount still spreads the same way (by radiating in all directions) and it is still limited.

My point is that Superman is self-contradicting, as the explanation behind his power does not work, since the DC Eath and Sun are supposed to be our Earth and Sun and are treated as such.

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Re: DISTRUST IN NUMBERS

Postby Borgholio » 2015-04-27 08:45am

TrashMan wrote:
Borgholio wrote:They were able to SAVE him...not reconstruct him so he was as good as new. In that regard, SW tech is definitely superior.


Pike is early ToS era.
That's ancient by Trek standards


But we do not see anything even remotely similar anywhere else during the series, so he is the only example we have.
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Re: DISTRUST IN NUMBERS

Postby TrashMan » 2015-04-28 03:57am

And what example of SW healing do we have?

I cannot recall a single instance or repairing tissue or damaged limbs that DOESN'T involve robot part of heavy scarring.
Heck, half the sith are scarred and ugly with ugly prosthetics.

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Re: DISTRUST IN NUMBERS

Postby Borgholio » 2015-04-28 08:21am

TrashMan wrote:And what example of SW healing do we have?

I cannot recall a single instance or repairing tissue or damaged limbs that DOESN'T involve robot part of heavy scarring.
Heck, half the sith are scarred and ugly with ugly prosthetics.


Replacing a missing limb with a robot part IS a form of healing. Re-constructing an entire biological limb is something that (IIRC) only happened once in ST and it took months. A prosthetic limb is likely far easier to work with and who would care anyways if it was just as functional as the original? As far as scarring, the Sith love to look evil so they don't bother with cosmetic fluff. Luke had some pretty bad scarring after surviving exposure and a wampa attack on Hoth. A dunk in Bacta did the trick and the wounds eventually closed up on their own.
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Re: DISTRUST IN NUMBERS

Postby Jub » 2015-04-28 09:07am

You can also look at Grievious and how he survived as little more than some organs and a brain inside a robotic shell. Or, if you'd prefer Lobot, who had his brain wired into a massive computer system that controlled most of the functions of cloud city. Neither of those are easy feats to achieve without some seriously advanced medical technology and skilled medical professionals.

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Re: DISTRUST IN NUMBERS

Postby TrashMan » 2015-05-08 04:41am

Borgholio wrote:Replacing a missing limb with a robot part IS a form of healing. Re-constructing an entire biological limb is something that (IIRC) only happened once in ST and it took months. A prosthetic limb is likely far easier to work with and who would care anyways if it was just as functional as the original? As far as scarring, the Sith love to look evil so they don't bother with cosmetic fluff. Luke had some pretty bad scarring after surviving exposure and a wampa attack on Hoth. A dunk in Bacta did the trick and the wounds eventually closed up on their own.


I don't recall any scarring on Luke.

Also, if scarring can be so easily healed, they why doesn't Vader heal himself?
Don't they have medical officers and bacta tanks on every ship? He could just take a dip in-between missions.
In other words, Vader could heal himself at any time (apparently) but spends the rest of his life in a stuffy suit, scarred, and with a machine that he need to breathe.
At no point does he repair his lungs or heal his scarring..or even re-grow his limbs.

If you say "because Palapatine wont' allow it", Vader is ALWAYS in his suit. He could heal himself and Palpatine would never know.

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Re: DISTRUST IN NUMBERS

Postby Jub » 2015-05-08 04:54am

TrashMan wrote:Also, if scarring can be so easily healed, they why doesn't Vader heal himself?
Don't they have medical officers and bacta tanks on every ship? He could just take a dip in-between missions.
In other words, Vader could heal himself at any time (apparently) but spends the rest of his life in a stuffy suit, scarred, and with a machine that he need to breathe.
At no point does he repair his lungs or heal his scarring..or even re-grow his limbs.

If you say "because Palapatine wont' allow it", Vader is ALWAYS in his suit. He could heal himself and Palpatine would never know.


Vader is basically in an abusive relationship with Palpatine, so much like a woman who could probably break free of his control and leave he doesn't even try. It doesn't help that his negative emotions, the source of his power, have likely left him feeling weak and helpless and each monstrous act he commits only further pushes his self-worth down deeper. The short answer is that he doesn't really want to be healed.

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Re: DISTRUST IN NUMBERS

Postby Borgholio » 2015-05-08 08:31am

I don't recall any scarring on Luke.


Image

You can see that even after a dunk in the bacta, he has unhealed cuts and wounds on his face. By the time he's on Dagobah only a few hours / days later, they're all gone.
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Re: DISTRUST IN NUMBERS

Postby Tribble » 2015-05-08 11:26am

I don't recall any scarring on Luke.

Also, if scarring can be so easily healed, they why doesn't Vader heal himself?
Don't they have medical officers and bacta tanks on every ship? He could just take a dip in-between missions.
In other words, Vader could heal himself at any time (apparently) but spends the rest of his life in a stuffy suit, scarred, and with a machine that he need to breathe.
At no point does he repair his lungs or heal his scarring..or even re-grow his limbs.

If you say "because Palapatine wont' allow it", Vader is ALWAYS in his suit. He could heal himself and Palpatine would never know.


Again, your labouring under the impression that biological replacement = better. SW medicine takes the viewpoint that replacing damaged / destroyed biological components with mechanical ones is the way to go. Apart from force users (which were a very tiny fraction of the population of the galaxy before order 66, and virtually non-existent afterwards) there is no meaningful difference between an artificial component and a biological one. And even is they could regenerate biological limbs, we don't know if the midichorians would replicate in one.

And speaking of which, apart from skin what other examples do we have in Star Trek of them regenerating tissue? In my previous posts I've already stated several examples of organs which cannot be fully regenerated / replaced biologically.
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Re: DISTRUST IN NUMBERS

Postby Simon_Jester » 2015-05-08 08:10pm

Hm.

Star Trek has robotic prosthetics that seem fairly satisfactory. An artificial heart is easy, comparatively speaking- we already have them although we haven't solved some of the related problems- but we also have the example of Nog's artificial leg, as Tribble noted. Geordi's visor is not to be sneezed at either; it may not be a prosthetic that directly replaces the eye, but it is in many respects a more capable thing than the eyes it replaces.

Supposedly they also have a pill that causes you to grow a new kidney. In the late TOS era. :D

Also, medical technology isn't all about replacing or regrowing lost body parts. For instance, canonically, Star Trek doctors do have the medical means to treat almost any imaginable form of exotic disease, toxin, or radiation poisoning, and restore the patient to full health. Laugh about medical hazards as "monster of the week" all you want. But almost any major Star Trek character has survived several bouts of life-threatening illness that, even if cured, would have crippling consequences in real life.

I would say that medical technology is an area where Star Trek is actually pretty respectable. There are people who, for whatever reason, have 'untreatable' illnesses or injuries. But there are many, many incidences of people being horribly sick and having a full recovery, even in the face of totally unknown pathogens and threats.
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Re: DISTRUST IN NUMBERS

Postby Tribble » 2015-05-08 08:44pm

Simon_Jester wrote:Hm.

Star Trek has robotic prosthetics that seem fairly satisfactory. An artificial heart is easy, comparatively speaking- we already have them although we haven't solved some of the related problems- but we also have the example of Nog's artificial leg, as Tribble noted. Geordi's visor is not to be sneezed at either; it may not be a prosthetic that directly replaces the eye, but it is in many respects a more capable thing than the eyes it replaces.

Supposedly they also have a pill that causes you to grow a new kidney. In the late TOS era. :D

Also, medical technology isn't all about replacing or regrowing lost body parts. For instance, canonically, Star Trek doctors do have the medical means to treat almost any imaginable form of exotic disease, toxin, or radiation poisoning, and restore the patient to full health. Laugh about medical hazards as "monster of the week" all you want. But almost any major Star Trek character has survived several bouts of life-threatening illness that, even if cured, would have crippling consequences in real life.

I would say that medical technology is an area where Star Trek is actually pretty respectable. There are people who, for whatever reason, have 'untreatable' illnesses or injuries. But there are many, many incidences of people being horribly sick and having a full recovery, even in the face of totally unknown pathogens and threats.


I agree, but the only medical technology we've seen so far in the Star Wars films relates to physical injury. In that particular area IMO Star Wars medicine is at least as effective as Star Trek medicine. I disagree with TrashMan's assertion that Star Trek medicine is superior simply because we've seen it on screen more often and in a more variety of circumstances. Based on the current Star Wars canon we simply don't have enough information in other areas of medicine to allow for a proper comparison.
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Re: DISTRUST IN NUMBERS

Postby Simon_Jester » 2015-05-09 01:48am

True.

Although even in that context, Star Trek IV's "the doctor gave me a pill and I grew a new kidney!" incident is arguably relevant...
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