Help with debate on S. Asia

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Bottlestein
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Help with debate on S. Asia

Postby Bottlestein » 2010-12-17 01:28pm

I'm debating this fundi nutjob (anti-Semite). I've got most of his points answered but need help with a few points that I do not know much about:

1) Specifically, he is asserting that Israel and India have together funded an insurgency in the Balochistan region of Pakistan.

I think this is ridiculous since AFAIK the people in this region are pakhtun, and would probably not sympathize with either Israel or India. I suspect that what's happened here is some of Pakistan's own terrorists have gone rogue - but I am not informed enough to claim this.

2) He is also asserting that Israel is in league with the Orissa killers a little while back.

Again - I'm convinced that this is bullshit, but have little information on the subject.

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Sarevok
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Re: Help with debate on S. Asia

Postby Sarevok » 2010-12-17 01:44pm

1) Specifically, he is asserting that Israel and India have together funded an insurgency in the Balochistan region of Pakistan.


The conspiracy theory goes the violence in Balochistan may have backers in India. At one time Afghanistan may have also played a part. But Israel has as much relevance here as the government of Chile. I have never heard or read anything accusing Israeli involvement in what is a low key domestic Pakistani problem.

I think this is ridiculous since AFAIK the people in this region are pakhtun, and would probably not sympathize with either Israel or India. I suspect that what's happened here is some of Pakistan's own terrorists have gone rogue - but I am not informed enough to claim this.


Nah the problem is with Baloch people. They want to secede and form their own country like East Pakistan did. Its an old issue stretching back to 1950s. The dissidents there also do not have much to do with recent terrorism in NWFP. Their goals are not in common with religious terrorism going on elsewhere in Pakistan.

2) He is also asserting that Israel is in league with the Orissa killers a little while back.


Cant identify the incident you refer to.

Can you be bit more specific ?
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.

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Re: Help with debate on S. Asia

Postby Talhe » 2010-12-17 01:55pm

What kinds of sources is he using to debate? Even though Israel is the target for a crapload of conspiracy theories, I've never seen it mentioned in the context of Balochistan. The closest thing I can think of would be the assertion that Israel sold some weapons to the mujahedeen in the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, which came from the book of a former ISI member.

Weren't the Orissa killers the elephant killers?
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Re: Help with debate on S. Asia

Postby Thanas » 2010-12-17 02:12pm

Moved to the more appropriate forum.
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Bottlestein
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Re: Help with debate on S. Asia

Postby Bottlestein » 2010-12-17 02:17pm

Talhe wrote:What kinds of sources is he using to debate? Even though Israel is the target for a crapload of conspiracy theories, I've never seen it mentioned in the context of Balochistan. The closest thing I can think of would be the assertion that Israel sold some weapons to the mujahedeen in the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, which came from the book of a former ISI member.

Weren't the Orissa killers the elephant killers?


He's referring to an incident where some Christians were killed in Orissa. Also, for the Balochistan issue he's suggesting Israeli secret service helps the India gov't with false flag ops in that region.

Also, @ Sarevok: Thanks for the info :P . So the Baloch movement is independent of the "Pakhtunistan" movement ?

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Sarevok
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Re: Help with debate on S. Asia

Postby Sarevok » 2010-12-17 02:35pm

So the Baloch movement is independent of the "Pakhtunistan" movement ?


Yeah. While the Pashtun people may have wanted a separate state they never fought for it seriously. And since Pakistan was formed in 1947 that idea seemed to have died down outside academic and intellectual discussions. The key thing here is that while various groups in Pakistan may have grievances against Punjabis who they think dominate the country few have actually acted out on those feelings. Pakistan has one thousand and one problems but danger of disintegrating on ethnic lines like former Yugoslavia is not one of them. They have not sunk that low yet.
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Re: Help with debate on S. Asia

Postby Bottlestein » 2010-12-17 02:41pm

^ Apropos of this question - just some stuff that I'm ignorant of :oops: :

India supported the anti-Taliban elements in Afghanistan right? Not really anything in Pakistan?

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Re: Help with debate on S. Asia

Postby Sarevok » 2010-12-17 02:48pm

He's referring to an incident where some Christians were killed in Orissa. Also, for the Balochistan issue he's suggesting Israeli secret service helps the India gov't with false flag ops in that region.


I see. The issue of Christian missionaries converting hindus is a touchy topic in India. Religious hindus and muslims alike see it as a threat. If the government of India intervenes they piss off their own citizens. If they don't they make the missionaries powerful friends in the west sad. It is part of Indias rather dangerous history of recent religious strife. I dont see what does Israel has to gain by interfering. The fastest way to become Indias or any nations enemy is to incite their domestic problems,
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.

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Sarevok
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Re: Help with debate on S. Asia

Postby Sarevok » 2010-12-17 03:17pm

Bottlestein wrote:^ Apropos of this question - just some stuff that I'm ignorant of :oops: :

India supported the anti-Taliban elements in Afghanistan right? Not really anything in Pakistan?


Well India never recognized the Taliban government when it was in power 1996-2001. But at same time they were not in open conflict using their favored groups as proxy soldiers. Sometimes it seemed the wind could blow in a different direction too. When in 1999 a hijacked Indian airlines flight landed in Kabul. The Kashmiri hijackers thought they would find refuge amongst the Taliban. But it was not so easy. The Taliban soldiers surrounded the plane and for a moment there it seemed like they would play part of the good guy and help rescue the hostages.

What India did do is provide a safe haven for anti Taliban groups and individuals. Hamid Karzai used to live Delhi in the 1990s IIRC. But I don't know if India ever armed anyone to carry the fight to the Taliban. Before America came along the anti Taliban groups were a sorry bunch of folks finding a forgotten war. They had few backers as almost nobody cared for them.

As for Pakistan ? Indias intervention leading up to 1971 was epically successful in splitting Pakistan into two separate nations. After that they never tried to pull off such a spectacular stunt. Common sense dictates they of course have very signficant espionage
and spying efforts. But beyond people accusing politician x or y being an Indian agent there is no evidence to suggest India is supporting any domestic groups within Pakistan to further their own agenda.
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.


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