Advise: Losing Your Temper

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Oskuro
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Advise: Losing Your Temper

Post by Oskuro »

I really suck at debating. Not because of imperviousness to logic, or the inability to present a coherent argument. My main problem, one that frustrates me to no end, is that I lose my temper too easily. I get worked up as soon as I meet the least bit of resistance, and my carefully laid out arguments quickly lose coherence in the ensuing emotional mess.

What I'd like to ask the board is for advise regarding this issue, and hopefully stir a discussion both on how to handle our own tempers, and how to deal with debaters who either lose theirs, or worse, manipulate us to provoke an emotional breakdown.

I'm referring mainly to face-to-face debates, where you don't have the benefit of being able to delay your reply until your ideas are back in place, but I guess such a discussion would be useful for Forum debates as well, seeing as how many of us sometimes can't help hitting reply and spouting whatever is on our mind at the moment.
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Re: Advise: Losing Your Temper

Post by Darth Wong »

RAAAAARRGGHH! HULK SMASH!!!

I don't know if anyone here can really give you advice on anger management. That seems like something you need a bit of Zen discipline to handle, or a professional therapist. I got over my anger when I was younger, after spending years commuting in the worst high-traffic area in Toronto. When you spend years sitting in traffic every day, taking 45 minutes to make a 10 minute trip while aggressive drivers make all kinds of unreasonable and illegal maneuvers in their desperate desire to get just a bit farther ahead than you, you either need to learn to control your temper or you suffer some kind of breakdown.
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Re: Advise: Losing Your Temper

Post by Oskuro »

Heh, the Force is with me when it comes to traffic and the innumerable assholes roaming the streets. My issue is more about the enourmous glowing red buttons I seem to have on me, that anyone can push even when not trying to (I feel like one of those old arcade cabinets, if al least I had a quarter each time someone pushes my buttons).

And I disagree, this board is perfect for anger management issues, I mean, despite all the anger we have around, no one has snapped yet and done something drastic, and people manage to have real life conversations. Unless, of course, most of us are basement-dwelling shut-ins. :?
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Re: Advise: Losing Your Temper

Post by Darth Wong »

Well, the only advice I can offer is to be confident. People can "push your buttons" a lot more effectively when you are insecure about yourself.

When I get into face-to-face debates about politics or religion, the shoe is on the other foot: I'm usually the calm one while the other person gets angry. Mind you, that doesn't mean I'm necessarily being polite; if I want to, I can be calm but also rather condescending and derisive, which can drive certain people nuts.
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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Re: Advise: Losing Your Temper

Post by Junghalli »

For me I find it helps to keep in mind that a discussion is supposed to be a search for truth and not some macho pissing contest where you must have victory. It's not about winners or losers, it's about exchanging knowledge and ideas with others, and it's quite possible they may know stuff you don't. The trick is not to let yourself get emotionally invested in being right, because that's the way toward not being able to admit you're wrong. I think my debating style has improved considerably since I adopted this mantra; I used to have problems knowing when to just admit I was wrong or that the argument just wasn't worth the effort, because I'd make it a point of pride not to let the other guy "humble" me, and that's a bad idea.

Of course if you're debating a complete doofus, like a YEC or something, this is less applicable. In that case I find the best strategy is to think of yourself as presenting the case of reason to the fence sitters out there. Or just do a cost-benefit analyses of what you'll get out of having the argument in the first place vs. just let things lie. Sometimes I think it's just not worth it to get into an argument, even if the other guy is being a total dumbass/douchebag. You have only so much life and energy and you can't be expected to spend every second of every day slapping down morons.
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Re: Advise: Losing Your Temper

Post by Darth Wong »

Ever tried debating a Jehovah's Witness? They can easily annoy you, simply by being the smarmy asshole salesmen that they've been trained to be. They don't think they're being assholes, but basically they respond to every point you make the same way Sarah Palin does: by ignoring it and launching into a prepared talking point. They don't realize that this is incredibly rude; to them, there is nothing rude about this because they're not using foul language or direct insults.

The thing is, I've gotten JWs to have temper tantrums, and the trick is simply to realize that your frustration stems from their tactics (in conjunction with their idiot smiley-face presentation). Once you realize this, and don't let them ruffle you any more, then you can settle down and focus on their bad arguments rather than attacking them for refusing to acknowledge your points, no matter how tempting (and justified) it may be.

I got a JW to virtually blow his stack (seriously, he was red-faced foot-stomping angry) simply by answering every single point he made with "But that's based on the Bible and the Bible is just a bunch of primitive BS" (or something similar), and whenever he started trying to "prove" that the Bible is historically accurate, I just blew it off by making fun of some of its more absurd elements, like talking shrubbery, guys living inside whales, etc. I've found that the two words "talking shrubbery" just drive people like this absolutely batty for some reason. I think that it just sounds ridiculous when you put it that way, but they've been conditioned to think that "burning bush" sounds reasonable. It's like a splash of cold water to the face every time you describe it in such mocking terms, especially since the term is 100% accurate.
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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Re: Advise: Losing Your Temper

Post by Oskuro »

I think that what really gets me off my rocker is when people enage in debate as a sort of competition, to stroke their own egos rather than to discuss an issue. I find myself getting very nervous when they display signs of imperviousness to reason, or worse yet, when they engage in pure ad-hominem attacks in an attempt to prove their moral superiority, followed by a despicable smugness when I freak out due to their lack of reasoning.

Mostly, these situations emerge when debating issues regarding egotistical behaviours, like reckless driving or smoking, with those guilty of said attitudes will almost immediately lash back at me, questioning my character and motivations, claiming that I'm being too critical, or downright nasty. That's when I begin to lose my temper, when even the weight of overwhelming evidence is casually brushed aside because I'm supposedly being rude.

There are also the purely ego-motivated blockades, where the party losing the argument will barricade itself because it feels it is in the right, or simply for the sake of competing and proving they are better. An example that really got me on my nerves was a girl who would not accept that it was faster (shorter distance) to move along the hypotenuse of a right triangle rather than along the adjacent sides. This simple undisputable mathemathical truth made it terribly obvious that she just wasn't about to concede her point due to her pride, rather than reason, and that really got me upset, because of how blatantly disrespectful of my opinion and reasoning she was being.

The problem is that, in any case, as soon as I lose it, I'm immediately accused of being unreasonable, and thus, somehow, my reasoning is considered moot. And that angers me a whole lot more. I'm really on the surplus side of the anger spectrum lately.
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Re: Advise: Losing Your Temper

Post by Coalition »

LordOskuro wrote:Mostly, these situations emerge when debating issues regarding egotistical behaviours, like reckless driving or smoking, with those guilty of said attitudes will almost immediately lash back at me, questioning my character and motivations, claiming that I'm being too critical, or downright nasty. That's when I begin to lose my temper, when even the weight of overwhelming evidence is casually brushed aside because I'm supposedly being rude.

There are also the purely ego-motivated blockades, where the party losing the argument will barricade itself because it feels it is in the right, or simply for the sake of competing and proving they are better. An example that really got me on my nerves was a girl who would not accept that it was faster (shorter distance) to move along the hypotenuse of a right triangle rather than along the adjacent sides. This simple undisputable mathemathical truth made it terribly obvious that she just wasn't about to concede her point due to her pride, rather than reason, and that really got me upset, because of how blatantly disrespectful of my opinion and reasoning she was being.
At this point, forget about convincing your opponent, and just show how stupid their position is to everyone else. You'll 'lose' against her, but the snickers/laughter whenever she talks should make up for it.

Or pull the same stunt against them. Just repeat the point they ignore.
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Re: Advise: Losing Your Temper

Post by Darth Wong »

LordOskuro wrote:I think that what really gets me off my rocker is when people enage in debate as a sort of competition, to stroke their own egos rather than to discuss an issue. I find myself getting very nervous when they display signs of imperviousness to reason, or worse yet, when they engage in pure ad-hominem attacks in an attempt to prove their moral superiority, followed by a despicable smugness when I freak out due to their lack of reasoning.
How do you know their motive is self-aggrandizement? I think you're making unwarranted assumptions here. They might argue that way because they simply don't know any better. Most people don't really know how to argue properly, and they honestly think that "establishing moral authority" and repetition of "talking points" is actually a valid way to argue.

Remember that this is how almost all political debates are conducted, so the majority of the population appears to believe it is acceptable behaviour.
Mostly, these situations emerge when debating issues regarding egotistical behaviours, like reckless driving or smoking, with those guilty of said attitudes will almost immediately lash back at me, questioning my character and motivations, claiming that I'm being too critical, or downright nasty. That's when I begin to lose my temper, when even the weight of overwhelming evidence is casually brushed aside because I'm supposedly being rude.
You should probably criticize those behaviours based strictly on objective criteria such as fatalities induced and years of life lost (both of which you can easily look up in a somewhat authoritative source on the CDC website) rather than decrying them as "egotistical". Don't give them an opening to turn it into a debate about personalities, so that when they do it anyway, you can point out that they're running away from the objective debate in favour of the personality debate.
There are also the purely ego-motivated blockades, where the party losing the argument will barricade itself because it feels it is in the right, or simply for the sake of competing and proving they are better. An example that really got me on my nerves was a girl who would not accept that it was faster (shorter distance) to move along the hypotenuse of a right triangle rather than along the adjacent sides. This simple undisputable mathemathical truth made it terribly obvious that she just wasn't about to concede her point due to her pride, rather than reason, and that really got me upset, because of how blatantly disrespectful of my opinion and reasoning she was being.
It may be true that she's refusing to concede because of her pride, but that's pretty much irrelevant to any argument you might want to make. Someone who's that stupid is clearly so idiotic that there's no point arguing with her at all. You might as well just tell her to move to Alaska and run for Governor.
The problem is that, in any case, as soon as I lose it, I'm immediately accused of being unreasonable, and thus, somehow, my reasoning is considered moot. And that angers me a whole lot more. I'm really on the surplus side of the anger spectrum lately.
Most people think that "logic" is defined in the Star Trek manner, as an unemotional comportment rather than legitimacy of reasoning. You're not going to single-handedly change this, but it seems to me that your tendency of focusing on the perceived psychology behind their arguments is only hurting you. Who gives a shit what is motivating their arguments? If they're making a weak argument, you should try to develop your skills for identifying and mocking those weaknesses. Get good at that, and you can hit them hard without going off-topic.

And learn to walk away when someone is too stupid to bother with. That girl who doesn't understand the distance savings in cutting a corner is either yanking your chain or she's so fucking stupid that she shouldn't be allowed to operate her own dinner utensils.
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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Re: Advise: Losing Your Temper

Post by Junghalli »

LordOskuro wrote:I think that what really gets me off my rocker is when people enage in debate as a sort of competition, to stroke their own egos rather than to discuss an issue. I find myself getting very nervous when they display signs of imperviousness to reason, or worse yet, when they engage in pure ad-hominem attacks in an attempt to prove their moral superiority, followed by a despicable smugness when I freak out due to their lack of reasoning.

Mostly, these situations emerge when debating issues regarding egotistical behaviours, like reckless driving or smoking, with those guilty of said attitudes will almost immediately lash back at me, questioning my character and motivations, claiming that I'm being too critical, or downright nasty. That's when I begin to lose my temper, when even the weight of overwhelming evidence is casually brushed aside because I'm supposedly being rude.
I think the best thing here would be to focus on hammering on the objective facts behind your arguments and brush those ad hominems away as the obvious diversionary tactics they are. Why should you let them define the debate?
There are also the purely ego-motivated blockades, where the party losing the argument will barricade itself because it feels it is in the right, or simply for the sake of competing and proving they are better.
Such people are pretty much impossible to reason with. My advice is to do one of two things.

1) Concentrate on playing to the fence-sitters. Don't try to convince the arguer, try to show everybody else why their argument is stupid.

2) Just know when you're wasting your time and pick your battles. If I got into an argument over every idiotic and fucktarded thing I heard people around me say I'd probably have anger management issues too.
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Re: Advise: Losing Your Temper

Post by Oskuro »

Darth Wong wrote:How do you know their motive is self-aggrandizement? I think you're making unwarranted assumptions here. They might argue that way because they simply don't know any better. Most people don't really know how to argue properly, and they honestly think that "establishing moral authority" and repetition of "talking points" is actually a valid way to argue.
It's people I've known for quite some time, and there's this tendency to be extremely competitive among themselves. A sinple LAN game will often degenerate into screaming matches if someone screws up, wich is the reason I usually refrain from participating. Although I do concede the point you made afterwards that I tend to go straight for the psychological interpretation of their motivation, rather than stay on the purely logical arguments. That's a vice I'm trying hard to quit, although I do notice that people often try to pull me into a debate on motivations (usually through ad-hominem) so as to be able to play the relativism card if things don't go their way, although I very much doubt most of them do it consciously.
You should probably criticize those behaviours based strictly on objective criteria such as fatalities induced and years of life lost (both of which you can easily look up in a somewhat authoritative source on the CDC website) rather than decrying them as "egotistical".
I usually take that stance, but as I said earlier, get pulled too easily into the other kind of debate.
It may be true that she's refusing to concede because of her pride, but that's pretty much irrelevant to any argument you might want to make. Someone who's that stupid is clearly so idiotic that there's no point arguing with her at all. You might as well just tell her to move to Alaska and run for Governor.
We're talking about a girl who will get extremely defensive about anything she perceives is attacking her opinion. I doubt she gave any thought to the arguments I was providing, but rather decided to oppose me just because. She's of the type of girl too used to men always letting her have her way. Unfortunately, I care for her, wich means it saddens and thus angers me to see her behave like a Palin impersonator.

Darn, here I am, theorizing about her motivation again.... :banghead:
... but it seems to me that your tendency of focusing on the perceived psychology behind their arguments is only hurting you.
As I said before, I fully agree that's one of my major flaws.
And learn to walk away when someone is too stupid to bother with.
Usually not a problem, thing is, these are people I care for (friends and such) so walking away is not usually an option I want to take. The option I do take (wich angers them to no end) is to simply stop debating them, but sometimes I can't help myself, specially with extremelly idiotic things like the trigonometry example.

Maybe I should write WWMWD in the back of my hand so I remember :D
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