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Much to my dismay I've found myself getting into an email debate with a guy in my African history class who buys the old Afrocentrist canard about ancient Egyptians being black (subSaharan African physical type). I know that genetic evidence fairly overwhelmingly suggests that the people living in Egypt today more-or-less are the same people who'd have been living there in the times of the Pharoahs, and I know the Egyptians mostly depicted themselves as pretty conspicuously not black in their art, but he didn't seem very impressed when I hit him with a bunch of pics of Egyptian art of Egyptians and Nubians (who are depicted as black).

I'm planning to see what papers I can find on the topic myself when I get the time, but does anybody have any sources they can recommend me? I'm not really trying to "defeat" him per se, I'll settle for simply forcing him to take the evidence against his position seriously and planting the seeds of doubt.

If the genetic evidence is in your favor (which, obviously, it is), then just ask him to provide genetic proof of his claims.

On what grounds does this guy support his claim the Egyptians were black? What is his evidence?

Actually, there is little doubt some ancient Egyptians were what we would call black. There is also little doubt that some of them were what we would call "white". Many more were of mixed ancestry.

At least one Egyptian dynasty was, unequivocally, from south of Egypt proper and undoubtedly had a predominantly sub-Saharan appearance. Equally certain there were other dynasties from further north who were not.

So... which time period, which part of Egypt, based on what evidence? (Remember - the Ancient Egyptians left us a LOT of well-preserved dead bodies to study)

Frankly, I don't think they viewed race in the same manner we do. Being "Egyptian" might have been more important than one's exact shade of skin, although there might have been a preference for women to be paler than men.

I think a lot of the "Ancient Egyptians were black" stems from an urge to show that sub-Saharan Africans are just as capable of civilization, writing, etc. as any other group of people. Also a dash of racial bias in some cases.

Hell, he can't even properly define what Egyptians are supposed to look like. I mean Cleopatra is considered as an Egyptian yet she is from a Greek descent. Same can be said to the sizable amount of Greeks who migrated to Egypt.

By his definition, he is saying Americans are black simply because some Americans are black.

ray245 wrote:Hell, he can't even properly define what Egyptians are supposed to look like. I mean Cleopatra is considered as an Egyptian yet she is from a Greek descent. Same can be said to the sizable amount of Greeks who migrated to Egypt.

By his definition, he is saying Americans are black simply because some Americans are black.

Cleopatra was of the Ptolmys- I'm pretty sure when talking about ancient Egypt they mean the Old, Middle and New Kingdoms, not the period afterwards.

Broomstick wrote:I think a lot of the "Ancient Egyptians were black" stems from an urge to show that sub-Saharan Africans are just as capable of civilization, writing, etc. as any other group of people. Also a dash of racial bias in some cases.

They should talk about the history of Ethiopia then. It holds the distinction of being the only African State to never have been colonized by a foreign power.

Adrian Laguna wrote:

Broomstick wrote:I think a lot of the "Ancient Egyptians were black" stems from an urge to show that sub-Saharan Africans are just as capable of civilization, writing, etc. as any other group of people. Also a dash of racial bias in some cases.

They should talk about the history of Ethiopia then. It holds the distinction of being the only African State to never have been colonized by a foreign power.

The Italian army might dispute that. You could mention Liberia- the only African State colonized by black people.

ray245 wrote:By his definition, he is saying Americans are black simply because some Americans are black.

That is well said - can I use that? I think this captures some of the essence of the "Egyptians are black" argument.

Samuel wrote:The Italian army might dispute that.

Colonization is not the same as military conquest and occupation. Ethiopia was never colonized because the Italians never had a chance to do it, they got kicked out only five years after they conquered the place. You might as well argue the Germans colonized Denmark during WWII.

Broomstick wrote:

ray245 wrote:By his definition, he is saying Americans are black simply because some Americans are black.

That is well said - can I use that? I think this captures some of the essence of the "Egyptians are black" argument.

Sure, go ahead.