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 Post subject: Am I missing something? (Gun Control Debate) PostPosted: 2012-09-24 12:29am
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Him: The more people that have guns the less crime there is remember that.

Me: You're wrong. Countries with firearm restrictions have fewer murders overall, both per capita and as a relative percentage; not just fewer gun homicides.

Him: This is not true at all

I started my investigation by looking into what country's have the most armed civilians. What their gun law are and what their murder rate is. I found out some interesting facts. The U.S has the most guns in the world an estimated 50% of the worlds firearms are located in the U.S and owned by civilians (I am kinda pride of that). Now we all know what the U.S gun laws are, for those that do not know We have the right to have guns. There is an estimated 270,000,000 civilian own firearms in the U.S. That is a shit load of guns with out a doubt. That equates to roughly 88.8 out of 100 people are armed in the U.S. That puts the U.S in the number 1 position of gun owners per ca pita in the world. No other country is even close.

Now according to you logic I say logic because I feel you posted an opinion with not factual data to back it up. You would think that the U.S would be the gun murder capital of the world as well as the murder capital of the world. But it is not and it is not even close. According to you the murder capital of the world must have similar guns laws as the U.S. And again you would be wrong. We will get back to where the U.S actually ranks in these measures in a moment.

Honduras, El Salvador, Cote d'Ivoire, Jamaica, Venezuela, Belize, Guatemala, Saint Kitts and Nevis Zambia Uganda. are the countries with the highest murder rates in the world

Lowest murder rates: Iceland, Senegal, Burkina Faso, Cameroon ,Finland ,Gambia ,Mali ,Saudi Arabia ,Mauritania and Oman.


1. Iceland- In Iceland, only licensed gun owners13 may lawfully acquire, possess or transfer a firearm or ammunition. The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Iceland is 90,000.

2. Senegal- In Senegal, only licensed gun owners may lawfully acquire, possess or transfer a firearm or ammunition. The regulation of guns in Senegal is categorised as permissive. The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Senegal is 230,000.

3. Burkina Faso- In Burkina Faso, only licensed gun owners3 may lawfully acquire, possess or transfer a firearm or ammunition. The regulation of guns in Burkina Faso is categorised as restrictive. The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Burkina Faso is 148,000.

4. Cameroon- In Cameroon, only licensed gun owners23 9 may lawfully acquire, possess or transfer a firearm or ammunition. The regulation of guns in Cameroon is categorised as restrictive. The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Cameroon is 340,000.

5. Finland- In Finland, only licensed gun owners may lawfully acquire, possess or transfer a firearm or ammunition. The regulation of guns in Finland is categorised as restrictive. The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Finland is 2,400,000.

6. Gambia- I could not find any thing about their laws. AKA Not listed.

7. Mali- In Mali, only licensed gun owners may lawfully acquire, possess or transfer a firearm or ammunition. The regulation of guns in Mali is categorised as restrictive. The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Mali is 143,000.

8. Saudi Arabia- Not listed. The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Saudi Arabia is 6,000,000.

9. Mauritania- In Mauritania, only licensed gun owners may lawfully acquire, possess or transfer a firearm or ammunition. The regulation of guns in Mauritania is categorised as restrictive. The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Mauritania is 50,000.

10. Oman- In Oman, only licensed gun owners may lawfully acquire, possess or transfer a firearm or ammunition. The regulation of guns in Oman is categorized as restrictive. The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Oman is 650,000.

And now for the country's with the highest Murder Rates (Per 100,000)

1. Honduras- In Honduras, only licensed gun owners may lawfully acquire, possess or transfer a firearm or ammunition. The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Honduras is 500,000.

2. El Salvador- In El Salvador, only licensed gun owners may lawfully acquire, possess or transfer a firearm or ammunition. The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in El Salvador is 400,000.

3. Cote d'Ivoire- not listed. The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Côte d'Ivoire is 400,000.

4. Jamaica- In Jamaica, only licensed gun owners may lawfully acquire, possess or transfer a firearm or ammunition. The regulation of guns in Jamaica is categorised as restrictive. The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Jamaica is 215,000.

5. Venezuela- The regulation of guns in Venezuela is categorised as restrictive. The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Venezuela is 1,600,000.

6. Belize- In Belize, only licensed gun owners may lawfully acquire, possess or transfer a firearm or ammunition. The regulation of guns in Belize is categorised as restrictive. The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Belize is 29,000.

7. Guatemala- In Guatemala, only licensed gun owners may lawfully acquire, possess or transfer a firearm or ammunition. The regulation of guns in Guatemala is categorised as restrictive. The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Guatemala is 1,650,000.

8. Saint Kitts and Nevis- Not listed

9. Zambia- In Zambia, only licensed gun owners may lawfully acquire, possess or transfer a firearm or ammunition. The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Zambia is 230,000.

10. Uganda- In Uganda, only licensed gun owners may lawfully acquire, possess or transfer a firearm or ammunition. The regulation of guns in Uganda is categorised as restrictive. The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Uganda is 400,000.

As we see here gun laws really have nothing to do with the amount of the murders that are being committed in any given country. The top ten least and the top ten most murders per country have basically the same gun laws. As to why one place has a higher murder rate than another well that is beyond the scope of this post. But I can say for sure that it has nothing to do with any given gun law.

We can also see that the amount of guns per ca pita has little to do with the rate of murder. With Honduras having rate of private gun ownership at 6.22 firearms per 100 people and being the murder capital of the world. And Iceland having a rate of private gun ownership at 30.32 firearms per 100 people and having the least murders.

Now back to the U.S and where she stand in all of this. With more guns then all of the other 20 country's listed by more than 10,000,000. The U.S has a murder rate of only 4.2. As you can see it is much closer to the rate of Iceland at 0.3 then it is to Honduras at 82.1.

So once again people, guns do not kill people, people kill people. I know all you anti gun people out there want to think differently but you are wrong. The numbers speak for them selves.

Me: Selection bias. The countries you've looked at all have other problems which contribute to their high murder rate. If you're comparing murder rates between countries you have to compare murder rates between like countries, in the case of the US basically between US, Europe, Russia and Israel. You cannot compare the murder rate in the US to the murder rate in a country like Uganda.

http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-...s-05012009.pdf

To explain further: it isn't gun control just if the law exists on the book. You have to have an police force willing to and capable of enforcing the law; you have to have a certain amount of stability within the country already, and you have to have a level of communication and logistical hardware necessary. The African countries you listed don't have that; Uganda is lolwtf corrupt and is smack dab in the middle of a region that very recently experienced a massive civil war for example. Jamaica is also hilariously corrupt, and it's a known fact that most guns smuggled into Jamaica, Honduras and other Carribbean/Latin American countries come from America.

You cannot compare an industrialised, relatively uncorrupt country like America to an agrarian, very corrupt country like Uganda. Yes, the law is there in the books, but the police get bought off, the government is already involved in organised violence and is getting bought off.

Him: So your point is that the laws need to be enforced before it would matter?

Me: My point is that if we're discussing whether or not governmental gun control works you can't use as the basis of the discussion a large group of countries where there is arguably no government at all.

Him: I feel that you are being very stubborn on this issue and are unwilling to yield in spite of the over welling evidence against your argument. You seem to like to pick out one thing and use that as evidence that you are correct in the matter and ignore the other over welling evidence against you stance.

Sorry to let you know that not all of the country's that make the top ten list of murder rates in the world are in socially collapse or have no government at all.

1. Venezuela- Is ranked 25th by the U.N of country's with the most gross domestic product (GDP) and let me add that they are right below Norway, Saudi Arabia. And above Senegal, Iceland, Burkina Faso, Mauritania and Gambia. All of witch are in the top ten of country's with the least amount of murder. Since the discovery of oil in the early 20th century, Venezuela has been one of the world's leading exporters of oil, and it is a founding member of OPEC. Venezuela has some of the largest oil and natural gas reserves in the world, and consistently ranks among the top ten world crude oil producers.[55] Compared to the preceding year another 40.4% in crude oil reserves were proven in 2010, allowing Venezuela to surpass Saudi Arabia as the country with the largest reserves of this type.

2. Belize- The structure of government is based on the British parliamentary system, and the legal system is modelled on the Common Law of England. Belize is a parliamentary democracy, a Commonwealth realm, and therefore a member of the Commonwealth of Nations. So as we see they have a very intact and operational government. Belize is raked 180th by the U.N of country's with the most gross domestic product (GDP). Putting them above Gambia by 5 points who is in the top ten least murder rates. And is a huge tourism destination that help support the economy. Dont belive me well take a look. http://http://www.travelbelize.org/ Yea I know seem like a horrible place to go.

3. El Salvador- Is ranked 101st by the U.N of country's with most gross domestic product (GDP) putting them above Senegal, Iceland, Burkina Faso, Mauritania and Gambia all of them are in the list of top ten murder rates in the world. According to the IMF and CIA World Factbook, El Salvador has the third largest economy in the region, behind Costa Rica and Panama. El Salvador leads the region in remittances per capita, with inflows equivalent to nearly all export income; about a third of all households receive these financial inflows. In 2006, El Salvador was the first country to ratify the Central America-Dominican Republic Free Trade Agreement. CAFTA has bolstered exports of processed foods, sugar, and ethanol, and supported investment in the apparel sector, which faced Asian competition with the expiration of the Multi-Fiber Agreement in 2005.

4.Saint Kitts- St. Kitts is dependent on tourism to drive its economy. Tourism has been increasing since 1978. In 2009, there were 587,479 arrivals to Saint Kitts compared to 379,473 in 2007, which represents an increase of just under 40% growth in a two-year period. As tourism grows, the demand for vacation property increases in conjunction.
St. Kitts & Nevis also acquires foreign direct investment from their unique citizenship by investment program, outlined in their Citizenship Act of 1984. Interested parties can acquire citizenship if they pass the government's strict background checks and make an investment into an approved real estate development, Silver Reef development. Purchasers who make a minimum investment of US$350,000 are entitled to apply for citizenship of the Federation of St. Kitts and Nevis. http://http://www.stkittstourism.kn/...FQcGnQod0QkAAA
Once again seems like a horrible place to go.

5. Guatemala- Guatemala Is ranked 79th by the U.N by the U.N of country's with most gross domestic product (GDP) putting them above Senegal, Iceland, Burkina Faso, Mauritania, Cameroon and Gambia all of witch are listed on the least murder list.

6. Jamaica- Jamaica is ranked 114th by the U.N by the U.N of country's with most gross domestic product (GDP) putting them above Senegal, Iceland, Burkina Faso, Mauritania, Mali and Gambia all of witch are listed on the least murder list. Jamaica is a Commonwealth realm with Elizabeth II as Queen of Jamaica and head of state. Her appointed representative in the country is the Governor-General of Jamaica, currently Sir Patrick Allen. The head of government and Prime Minister of Jamaica is currently Portia Simpson-Miller. Jamaica is a parliamentary constitutional monarchy with legislative power vested in the bicameral Parliament of Jamaica, consisting of an appointed Senate and a directly elected House of Representatives. Since the first quarter of 2006, the economy of Jamaica has undergone a period of staunch growth. With inflation for the 2006 calendar year down to 6.0% and unemployment down to 8.9%, the nominal GDP grew by an unprecedented 2.9%. Presently the following categories of schools exist:
Early childhood – Basic, Infant and privately operated pre- school. Age cohort – 2 – 5 years.
Primary – Publicly and privately owned (Privately owned being called Preparatory Schools). Ages 3 – 12 years.
Secondary – Publicly and privately owned. Ages 10 – 19 years. The high schools in Jamaica may be either single-sex or co-educational institutions, and many schools follow the traditional English grammar school model used throughout the British West Indies.
Tertiary – Community Colleges, Teachers’ Colleges with The Mico Teachers' College (now The MICO University College) being the oldest founded in 1836,The Shortwood Teachers' College (which was once an all female teacher training institution), Vocational Training Centres, Colleges and Universities – Publicly and privately owned. There are five local universities namely: The University of the West Indies (Mona Campus); the University of Technology, Jamaica formerly The College of Art Science and Technology (CAST); the Northern Caribbean University formerly West Indies College; the University College of The Caribbean and the International University of the Caribbean.
As well as having a huge tourism industry http://http://www.jamaicaresort.com/?source=google Once again it looks like a horrible place to go.

7. Honduras- Ranks 112th by the U.N by the U.N of country's with most gross domestic product (GDP) putting them above Senegal, Iceland, Burkina Faso, Mauritania, Mali and Gambia all of witch are listed on the least murder list. During much of the 19th century, the Honduran economy languished; traditional cattle raising and subsistence agriculture produced no suitable major export. In the latter part of the century, economic activity quickened with the development of large-scale, precious metal mining. GDP
L 233 billion (2007.) US$ 12.3 billion (2007.)International dollars (purchasing power parity method) $24.69 billion (2007 est.) GDP - real growth rate 6%.

8. Zambia- Zambia ranks 109th by the U.N by the U.N of country's with most gross domestic product (GDP) putting them above Senegal, Iceland, Burkina Faso, Mauritania, Mali and Gambia all of witch are listed on the least murder list. In 2010, the World Bank named Zambia one of the world's fastest economically reformed countries. The Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA) is headquartered in Lusaka.

8. Uganda- Uganda ranks 107th ranks 109th by the U.N by the U.N of country's with most gross domestic product (GDP) putting them above Senegal, Iceland, Burkina Faso, Mauritania, Mali and Gambia all of witch are listed on the least murder list. The country has commenced economic reforms and growth has been robust. In 2008, Uganda recorded 7% growth despite the global downturn and regional instability..


I know that there are many reasons for crime and murder to happen and the answers as to why I can not answer. But once again the numbers speak for the self's that gun control laws play no part in it. And once again the numbers do not support you argument. As we can see 8 out of the top country's with he highest murder rate rank higher then a lot of the country's with he least murder rate as far as gross domestic product (GDP). So you can see that they do in fact a government in place that is functioning to some extent. I know that some of them do have their issues I am not debating that. My debate is and has been that Gun laws play no part in why one place has a higher rate then another.

And yet you can not concede to that fact. Yes I know that other factors do in fact play a part in to why there is more murder from one place to another. But once again gun laws play no parts. As I have shown you once again the 10 most and 10 least have the same gun laws. It is strange to me to see that the 10 most seem the have a better gross domestic product (GDP) I did not expect that.


And to drive my point even further that gun laws play no part. Did you know that Purta Rico is the number 1 gun murder capital of the world. And they have a very structured government and by no means a 3rd world country. And they have very strict gun laws from what I understand. In fact their civilian gun owners are listed as zero.

Me: GDP has nothing to do with what I was talking about and your evidence wasn't overwhelming.

GDP can basically be summed up as the amount of money that flows through a nation. In countries where the primary source of government funds is resource extraction; GDP can be relatively high. However, this doesn't matter, because it has absolutely nothing to do with the ability or willingness of said government to actually administrate.

Basically every nation that you listed ranks insanely high on the corruption index. All of them have difficulties controlling their borders and in the case of the Latin American and Carribean countries that you mentioned; it is a known fact that most of those are smuggled in from the United States.

If you want me to accept your premise that the availability has nothing to do with murder rates, you have to compare similar countries.

Even within the United States gun control has to be broken down. You can't look at the overall murder rate of the United States and say: ahah! Gun control plays no part because there are lots of people in this country with guns; because gun control legislation in the US is controlled primarily on a state by state basis. And even adjusted for population size America has a very high murder rate compared to Western Europe.

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 Post subject: Re: Am I missing something? (Gun Control Debate) PostPosted: 2012-09-24 10:05am
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Uhm, TL;DR, you should have used quotes or something, the him me doesn't really help that much.

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 Post subject: Re: Am I missing something? (Gun Control Debate) PostPosted: 2012-09-24 11:45am
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uhm - you're wrong chiros?

and he's right.



"Aid, trade, green technology and peace." - Hans Rosling.
"Welcome to SDN, where we can't see the forest because walking into trees repeatedly feels good, bro." - Mr Coffee

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 Post subject: Re: Am I missing something? (Gun Control Debate) PostPosted: 2012-09-24 11:57am
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madd0ct0r wrote:
uhm - you're wrong chiros?

and he's right.

:wtf:
Quote:
Him: The more people that have guns the less crime there is remember that.

That is the premise. As stated that is flawed.

Also Finland isn't even close as "lowest murder rates" they have one of the higher rates in the EU.
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 Post subject: Re: Am I missing something? (Gun Control Debate) PostPosted: 2012-09-24 01:18pm
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hmm - i got fixated on the GDP dosen't mean anything argument - which is wrong.
Although rereading Chiros used that himself?

I can't follow this. conceded rather then attempt to read it a third time



"Aid, trade, green technology and peace." - Hans Rosling.
"Welcome to SDN, where we can't see the forest because walking into trees repeatedly feels good, bro." - Mr Coffee

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 Post subject: Re: Am I missing something? (Gun Control Debate) PostPosted: 2012-10-25 01:43am
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IMO greater gun rights lead to less property crime, but more violent crime. Or at least more severe violent crime.

In any case, you can't actually prove your own argument. Each country has different methods of reporting various types of crime, and some crimes are unreported or unsolved.

Notice that Somalia has noticeably less murder then her neighbors? I don't think it's because there are plenty of AKs floating around.



Suffering from the diminishing marginal utility of wealth.

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