THE POPE IS DEAD (good riddance)

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Post by Straha » 2005-04-03 12:59am

PEOPLE! Look, the Pope tried his damndest, and he did a lot of good considering the institution he was a part of. The problem here that many people have is that they see the Pope as the embodiment of the Catholic Church and think that with a twitch of his eyebrow he can change policy. Well he can't, he's a leader of an institution which is more ponderous than any other government on the face of the Earth, and of which the leadership is more conservative than almost any other. Considering what this Pope did, bypass the papal Oath, disregard most of the Papal kingly regalia (the sedan chair, the crown, etc.) spend more money for the poor instead of the church, and actually giving a hoot about the common people, his religion, and poverty around the world. Was he a perfect man? Not in the least. But could he have done better? Maybe, but in a church that is having a strong reaction against Vatican II, and one that is controlled internally mostly by conservative bishops I doubt any of us could have done better without causing serious harm to the church, something he could never do for obvious reasons, in the process.
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Post by Darth Wong » 2005-04-03 01:01am

Straha wrote:PEOPLE! Look, the Pope tried his damndest, and he did a lot of good considering the institution he was a part of. The problem here that many people have is that they see the Pope as the embodiment of the Catholic Church and think that with a twitch of his eyebrow he can change policy. Well he can't, he's a leader of an institution which is more ponderous than any other government on the face of the Earth, and of which the leadership is more conservative than almost any other. Considering what this Pope did, bypass the papal Oath, disregard most of the Papal kingly regalia (the sedan chair, the crown, etc.) spend more money for the poor instead of the church, and actually giving a hoot about the common people, his religion, and poverty around the world. Was he a perfect man? Not in the least. But could he have done better? Maybe, but in a church that is having a strong reaction against Vatican II, and one that is controlled internally mostly by conservative bishops I doubt any of us could have done better without causing serious harm to the church, something he could never do for obvious reasons, in the process.
So he had no choice but to try and drag the church backwards rather than forwards?

In any case, one does not have to prove that the man was unqualifiably evil in order to show that he does not deserve the ridiculously effusive praise being heaped upon him, or to say that we're sick of the media blitz.
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Post by EmperorSolo51 » 2005-04-03 01:07am

So he had no choice but to try and drag the church backwards rather than forwards?

In any case, one does not have to prove that the man was unqualifiably evil in order to show that he does not deserve the ridiculously effusive praise being heaped upon him, or to say that we're sick of the media blitz.
I'm just sick of this knee jerk reaction by members of this board to attack a goodman just hours after he died. He may not have been a Peter or a Pope Gregory, or even Jesus himself. But he did leave us with a legacy of him doing his best to fight the Nazis in WWII and the USSR in Poland during the Cold War. This pope has also taught us look back and say that we should not be too concerned about materiak wealth and how we should do our best for the poor everyday. Plus this man tried to bring Jews, Protestants, Catholics, and Muslims together.

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Post by Ghost Rider » 2005-04-03 01:08am

Dalton wrote:If you're sick of hearing about the Pope, consider the fifty statements I had to type up from everyone from Nancy Reagan to Neighbor Bob.

Yeah, guess where I was when the announcement came down.
GAh, I feel for you there. Monday is not going to be the fun day...maybe I'll just be able to get a booth by myself and get lunch peacefully.

As for my thoughts, sorry...he might's done some good, but some of the things he did as what he thought was best(The whole AIDS/stance on contraception fiasco) are enough to make me simply not really care that he died. His successor looks to be worse....joy of joys.
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Post by Knife » 2005-04-03 01:09am

Cpl Kendall wrote:
frigidmagi wrote:
I'm a marine and I'm not amused.
My apologies then. In hindsight what I though was good natured army'marine ribbing, could be quite offensive. Especially when I go off on others about soldiers not being psychotic killers.

My sincerest apologies.
Meh, Talon is an atheist, so his overall concern for Christianity, or Catholitism in general, should be and is on average a *meh*. I do agree in general about a certain amount of hostility towards the leadership of a group of bigoted, child abusing, fundamentalist asshats. So in that, I agree.

The guy died, so I extend a certain amount of respect, for that. He was, though, in his 80's. He lead a full life, so I do not believe it is disrespectfull to rip into him for his life. Detractors could wait a day or two for total ass kicking though.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red

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Post by Knife » 2005-04-03 01:13am

EmperorSolo51 wrote: I'm just sick of this knee jerk reaction by members of this board to attack a goodman just hours after he died. He may not have been a Peter or a Pope Gregory, or even Jesus himself. But he did leave us with a legacy of him doing his best to fight the Nazis in WWII and the USSR in Poland during the Cold War. This pope has also taught us look back and say that we should not be too concerned about materiak wealth and how we should do our best for the poor everyday. Plus this man tried to bring Jews, Protestants, Catholics, and Muslims together.
With all due respect, he did so by focusing on the 'new evil' gays. JPII had his high points like any other human, but his flaws were serious. Hence this thread. If you feel the need to gush about him, go to the positive thread.

He's a bigot, a gay bashing fuckhead, and turned a blind eye to a serious problem in his own organization. Pedophiles.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red

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Post by Pablo Sanchez » 2005-04-03 01:13am

Darth Wong wrote:So he had no choice but to try and drag the church backwards rather than forwards?
As far as I was able to tell, his default position was stasis. What regressive policy did he enact, or progressive policy did he repeal?
In any case, one does not have to prove that the man was unqualifiably evil in order to show that he does not deserve the ridiculously effusive praise being heaped upon him, or to say that we're sick of the media blitz.
There's a subtle difference between saying "he does not deserve all of the praise he's getting" and saying "good riddance to the bastard."
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Post by Enforcer Talen » 2005-04-03 01:14am

if you hide pedophiles, dont expect to remain popular.
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Post by EmperorSolo51 » 2005-04-03 01:16am

Knife wrote:
EmperorSolo51 wrote: I'm just sick of this knee jerk reaction by members of this board to attack a goodman just hours after he died. He may not have been a Peter or a Pope Gregory, or even Jesus himself. But he did leave us with a legacy of him doing his best to fight the Nazis in WWII and the USSR in Poland during the Cold War. This pope has also taught us look back and say that we should not be too concerned about materiak wealth and how we should do our best for the poor everyday. Plus this man tried to bring Jews, Protestants, Catholics, and Muslims together.
With all due respect, he did so by focusing on the 'new evil' gays. JPII had his high points like any other human, but his flaws were serious. Hence this thread. If you feel the need to gush about him, go to the positive thread.

He's a bigot, a gay bashing fuckhead, and turned a blind eye to a serious problem in his own organization. Pedophiles.
Why I don't understand is why there is even need for such a hate-filled thread. In fact this thread is much more in tune with the hatefilled anti-pope threads on The Democratic Underground. It's nice to see boardmembers and board admins like Mike sink down to that oozy, slimey, level.

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Post by Captain Cyran » 2005-04-03 01:19am

EmperorSolo51 wrote:It's nice to see boardmembers and board admins like Mike sink down to that oozy, slimey, level.
It's nothing this board hasn't seen before and won't see again. But this board has never tried to be above the level of those it beats upon, too much "style over substance".
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Post by Darth Wong » 2005-04-03 01:20am

EmperorSolo51 wrote:I'm just sick of this knee jerk reaction by members of this board to attack a goodman just hours after he died.
Where were you when people were bashing Johnny Cochrane? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. I actually took part in bashing Johnny Cochrane too, even though he did some good things in addition to his bad ones, but I'm not the one running around saying that dead people automatically get respect.
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Post by Enforcer Talen » 2005-04-03 01:20am

style with substance. why win a point when you can win a point and call him an asshat?
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Post by Darth Wong » 2005-04-03 01:21am

EmperorSolo51 wrote:Why I don't understand is why there is even need for such a hate-filled thread.
Why is there even a need for a "moment of silence" thread?
In fact this thread is much more in tune with the hatefilled anti-pope threads on The Democratic Underground. It's nice to see boardmembers and board admins like Mike sink down to that oozy, slimey, level.
Ah yes, if you can't show that anything I've said is false, just try to smear it by association and evade the point. Good one. No one'll ever see through THAT ...
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

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Post by EmperorSolo51 » 2005-04-03 01:21am

Darth Wong wrote:
EmperorSolo51 wrote:I'm just sick of this knee jerk reaction by members of this board to attack a goodman just hours after he died.
Where were you when people were bashing Johnny Cochrane? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. I actually took part in bashing Johnny Cochrane too, even though he did some good things in addition to his bad ones, but I'm not the one running around saying that dead people automatically get respect.
I personally find it offense to bash people who have just recently died, period.

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Post by Dark Hellion » 2005-04-03 01:22am

Anyone saying that the Pope can't change things at the blink of the eye doesn't understand the mind of the Catholic fundementalist. The Pope cannot be wrong on issues of dogmatic law in the Catholic Church. If he was to implement that Friday had to be casual Friday, then every fundamentalist would be wearing khakis and blue jeans while eating their fish. He easily had the power to make major changes and refused to, and should rightly be reviled for this.
As for the new Pope, maybe he will get the Catholic church back on track doing what is should be doing, hunting vampires and demons and figuring out complex plans of world domination.
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Post by Darth Wong » 2005-04-03 01:22am

EmperorSolo51 wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
EmperorSolo51 wrote:I'm just sick of this knee jerk reaction by members of this board to attack a goodman just hours after he died.
Where were you when people were bashing Johnny Cochrane? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. I actually took part in bashing Johnny Cochrane too, even though he did some good things in addition to his bad ones, but I'm not the one running around saying that dead people automatically get respect.
I personally find it offense to bash people who have just recently died, period.
Really! Well too bad, it's OK on this board, and those who pretend that it only happens to right-wing icons are just lying, because left-wing icons can get The Treatment as well.
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Post by Captain Cyran » 2005-04-03 01:23am

Enforcer Talen wrote:style with substance. why win a point when you can win a point and call him an asshat?
There is nothing stylish about the shit this board has done in its past.
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Post by Darth Wong » 2005-04-03 01:24am

Captain Cyran wrote:
Enforcer Talen wrote:style with substance. why win a point when you can win a point and call him an asshat?
There is nothing stylish about the shit this board has done in its past.
If you don't like it, you're welcome to leave.
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Post by Pablo Sanchez » 2005-04-03 01:24am

Enforcer Talen wrote:if you hide pedophiles, dont expect to remain popular.
It's a little difficult to hold a man personally responsible for decisions being made by regional managers in one of the least important sectors of an organization that counts over a billion members. Not only had he nothing to do with the shuttling of those priests, he didn't even appoint the people who appointed the people that did the shuttling. As the titular head of the church he's there to absorb that responsibility, but it's inaccurate to say that he did anything of the sort.
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Post by Knife » 2005-04-03 01:25am

EmperorSolo51 wrote:
Why I don't understand is why there is even need for such a hate-filled thread. In fact this thread is much more in tune with the hatefilled anti-pope threads on The Democratic Underground. It's nice to see boardmembers and board admins like Mike sink down to that oozy, slimey, level.
I would assume that most things like this go into the 'political incorect thread' but the real bi-polar effect of the 'church' in real politic is real. JPII is the leader of a large institusion that is, in effect, a problem in various issues. Wheather or not he's a good guy, stands in balance with him as a leader of a group that did serious ill to civilization.

He did squat to alleave the pedophillia problem in his own organization. End of transmition. He didn't do anything. Add to it his biogtry about gays, his stanunce stance on very, fundie conservative anti condom polices in HIV Africa, well, there is plenty of reason to not like the man.

Should members be gut kicking him at this very moment? Probably not. In respect for the dead, he should get a day or four until he's in the ground. That is why I haven't just said he's a 'fuck head' at the moment.

But when pushed, as some have here, why parce words? Positive statments are reserved for the positve thread. Go there.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red

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Post by EmperorSolo51 » 2005-04-03 01:25am

Darth Wong wrote: Ah yes, if you can't show that anything I've said is false, just try to smear it by association and evade the point. Good one. No one'll ever see through THAT ...
So, this man wasn't perfect. Regardless of what his and the Roman Catholic Church's stances are on gay marriage and aboirtion, it doesn't mean that his willingness to help the poor in third world countries, rescue jews in the second world war, help combat Soviet Communism, and help try to bring three religions together don't count.

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Post by Darth Wong » 2005-04-03 01:26am

Question: if Michael Moore died tomorrow, would all of the right-wingers refrain from saying anything bad about him on that day while someone posted a multi-page "moment of silence" thread where people said only good things about him?

How much money would you bet on your answer?
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Post by Captain Cyran » 2005-04-03 01:27am

Knife wrote:But when pushed, as some have here, why parce words? Positive statments are reserved for the positve thread. Go there.
This I agree with completely. The people who didn't like the pope made their thread and stayed out of yours, you could at least do the same for them.
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Post by Darth Wong » 2005-04-03 01:30am

Talen's general anti-Christianity comments split to HoS. Regardless of whether they are correct or incorrect, this thread is not for general comments about Christianity.
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Post by Knife » 2005-04-03 01:30am

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
Enforcer Talen wrote:if you hide pedophiles, dont expect to remain popular.
It's a little difficult to hold a man personally responsible for decisions being made by regional managers in one of the least important sectors of an organization that counts over a billion members. Not only had he nothing to do with the shuttling of those priests, he didn't even appoint the people who appointed the people that did the shuttling. As the titular head of the church he's there to absorb that responsibility, but it's inaccurate to say that he did anything of the sort.
Bull shit, he's the pope. The fact that millions of people are 'praying' for him tonight, show that he is indeed the 'leader' of the church. If he was still alive, and tomarrow decreed that gay's were holly and in acourdance with church doctrine, there would be desenters and perhaps a split with in the church, but a good majority of Catholics would still follow the Catholic church.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red

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