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Rogue 9 wrote:

Imperial Overlord wrote:Aly, that he's mentally ill doesn't give him a pass on what he did before that.

Like, say, opposing the Communists in Poland at great personal risk?

Don't forget the Nazis before that.

'bout time. The fuckhead deserves all bad things that happen to him. Hope he bites the dust soon.

As much as I despise the average religion we have stemming from Judaism, I can't say I hate the man just because he is deluded.

That's what it comes down to in the long run. He's deluded. He truly believes that he is doing what is "right". As scary as his actions are to people not blinded by religious zeal, his motivations are not a conscious choice to be an evil prick. Unfortunately that doesn't make him any less dangerous either, and lets be realistic, his propagation of such a reprehensible belief system is culpable for a great deal of ethical aggravations society has been dealing with.

Ultimately, I won't shed a tear over his passing, but I don't despise him. Hopefully his replacement will be more progressive on many issues, but I won't hold my breath.

Alyrium Denryle wrote: Africa is a shithole, and it will remain a shithole regardless of what the catholic church does.

I don't think any one who criticise the Church in Africa denies that Africa is in bad shape. They are blaming the Church for making something already a "shithole" worse with their unscientific stance.

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Actually the Catholic church has been amazingly progressive as far as churches go in the last 100 years, at least here in the US. When was the last time you saw a church change their position on an issue without splitting(Evolution in the catholic church... of hell, vatican 2)

I don't think those here who criticise the Church deny it is more progressive than some other Christian groups. However the "its not bad because others are worse" line of reasoning frankly doesn't cut it.

Eh, John Paul the Second was actually a pretty good Pope. He took the Catholic Church in some decent direction (given how ponderous the bureaucracy of the Church is, it's amazing the Pope can do anything at all) even if he was a toon on other things. I wish him the best.

Don't forget the Nazis before that.

So? Strom Thurmond fought the Nazis. Doesn't mean he wasn't an asshole.

I don't think those here who criticise the Church deny it is more progressive than some other Christian groups. However the "its not bad because others are worse" line of reasoning frankly doesn't cut it.

You have to judge a religion relatively. I am not saying they are perfect becausethey are more progressive, but frankly they have made a lot of progress in the last hundred years, and I am sorry, but goodness is not an all or nothing deal, because people and organizations are not perfect entities.

I don't think any one who criticise the Church in Africa denies that Africa is in bad shape. They are blaming the Church for making something already a "shithole" worse with their unscientific stance.

Frankly, I want to see a study on whether or not the catholic church actually did make africa worse...

As a Catholic myself, I obviously feel for his situation. And I can understand why there’s a lot of animosity toward him. But one has to remember; in his early days he has done a lot of good. Most people are only going to look at him and think of the sex scandals, the obviously backwards decisions concerning reproductions and we Gays…

But this is also they guy who is responsible for a LOT of forward thinking reforms. Sure Catholics in general may reform slower then snails, but we have him to think for some of those changes.

Crossroads Inc. wrote:As a Catholic myself, I obviously feel for his situation. And I can understand why there’s a lot of animosity toward him. But one has to remember; in his early days he has done a lot of good. Most people are only going to look at him and think of the sex scandals, the obviously backwards decisions concerning reproductions and we Gays…

But this is also they guy who is responsible for a LOT of forward thinking reforms. Sure Catholics in general may reform slower then snails, but we have him to think for some of those changes.

Crossroads, the man goes to third world countries and speaks against the use of birth control methods and tells his Catholics followers it's a sin to use any form of birth control. And lest us not forget his visits to Africa and speaking against the use of condoms on a continent that is dieing from aids. I find these actions almost akin to aiding in someone's murder.

As always, i hope for a quiet, painless death for him. I tend to veer away from wishing pain or torment on people...

In some ways he was a good man, in other ways he was a bad man. He was flawed, i guess like all of us.

Trying not to sound pretentious, please forgive if this offends some i dont intend to...i assume whatever God or power in the universe will judge his fate now.

Whether you believe in a god or gods or not, Pope John Paul II is going to meet them in less than a week.

He's suffering from septic shock now, which elderly people in intensive care have less than a 20% chance of surviving beyond 48 hours. The Pope, is just recieving treatment at home.

He will be gone before the week is out, and it's odds-on-even he won't make it through the weekend.

I wish him and his family the best. May he have a peaceful death surrounded by those who love him.

Tommy J wrote:

Crossroads Inc. wrote:As a Catholic myself, I obviously feel for his situation. And I can understand why there’s a lot of animosity toward him. But one has to remember; in his early days he has done a lot of good. Most people are only going to look at him and think of the sex scandals, the obviously backwards decisions concerning reproductions and we Gays…

But this is also they guy who is responsible for a LOT of forward thinking reforms. Sure Catholics in general may reform slower then snails, but we have him to think for some of those changes.

Crossroads, the man goes to third world countries and speaks against the use of birth control methods and tells his Catholics followers it's a sin to use any form of birth control. And lest us not forget his visits to Africa and speaking against the use of condoms on a continent that is dieing from aids. I find these actions almost akin to aiding in someone's murder.

WHile at the same time preaching abstinence from sex. Neither condom use, nor abstinence will realistically happen in africa.

You need to remember, these are VERY poor people we are dealing with who, in many villages still live in mud huts with thatched roofs with no electricity or running water, where genocide happens every other week. Sex is one of the only releases they have from a very stressfull existence(maybe they should be put down... a cookie to whoever gets the reference) so abstinence wont happen in those very poor communities. It may in the wealthier areas(few as they are)

Condom use probably wont happen either for reasons of procreation, and due to poverty.

The africans are fucked either way.

John Paul's time was the 1980s. Neither he nor the Church were prepared to deal with the post-Cold War world. That's a criticism, but it's hardly one reserved for him.

Alyrium Denryle wrote:

Tommy J wrote:

Crossroads Inc. wrote:As a Catholic myself, I obviously feel for his situation. And I can understand why there’s a lot of animosity toward him. But one has to remember; in his early days he has done a lot of good. Most people are only going to look at him and think of the sex scandals, the obviously backwards decisions concerning reproductions and we Gays…

But this is also they guy who is responsible for a LOT of forward thinking reforms. Sure Catholics in general may reform slower then snails, but we have him to think for some of those changes.

Crossroads, the man goes to third world countries and speaks against the use of birth control methods and tells his Catholics followers it's a sin to use any form of birth control. And lest us not forget his visits to Africa and speaking against the use of condoms on a continent that is dieing from aids. I find these actions almost akin to aiding in someone's murder.

WHile at the same time preaching abstinence from sex. Neither condom use, nor abstinence will realistically happen in africa.

You need to remember, these are VERY poor people we are dealing with who, in many villages still live in mud huts with thatched roofs with no electricity or running water, where genocide happens every other week. Sex is one of the only releases they have from a very stressfull existence(maybe they should be put down... a cookie to whoever gets the reference) so abstinence wont happen in those very poor communities. It may in the wealthier areas(few as they are)

Condom use probably wont happen either for reasons of procreation, and due to poverty.

The africans are fucked either way.

Yes, these are the same people who believe that having sex with virgins will cure them of AIDS. There are only two things that will fix the African situation, and that's a century of intensive economic development and education (which won't happen until the African nations get caring, uncorrupt leadership, which probably won't happen for another half-century at least.)

The other solution is liberal application of the Shep Solution, followed by a hopefully less-intensive education and development for those who were smart enough to duck and cover.

And on the Pope. Say what you will about him, but he did a lot to drag the Church into the 19th century and maybe even the early 20th. The next few Popes are liable to be violently reactionary old, doddering Italians. It will, sadly, take a long time until we see another pope as progressive (this is entirely relative,) as John Paul II.

The only thing you can count on with Papal elections is to expect the unexpected. Of the last four popes, only one, Giovanni Montini (Paul VI) was the one who was expected; Angelo Roncalli (John XXIII) and Albino Luciani (John Paul I) were not the conclave's expected first choice - Karol Wojtyla broke all the rules, not only because of the shortness of his predecessor's reign but because of his youth and the extreme length of his own.

moku wrote:'bout time. The fuckhead deserves all bad things that happen to him. Hope he bites the dust soon.

If anyone is curious, MSNBC is reporting that his breathing is shallow. I wouldn't be suprised if he doesn't last the day.

Tommy J wrote:If anyone is curious, MSNBC is reporting that his breathing is shallow. I wouldn't be suprised if he doesn't last the day.

Yes. His breathing is shallow and he's starting to suffer from kidney failure. It won't be too much longer now.

Check out the "Choosing A Pope" link on www.cbsnews.com - some interesting things there, notably that the Church allows for "death of reason" as a valid end of term. Also, resignation is acceptable contrary to what I thought previously. It's just that he cannot be legally deposed since his authority is absolute.

Also:

CBS wrote:2: Death

When the pope dies, the Cardinal Camerlengo - dean of the College of Cardinals - must verify the death traditionally, by calling the pope three times by name without a response.

Naturally, they also rely on modern medicine to determine death, but...
whaitaminute....

I heard on the news just now that the pope died just now.......

May he rest in peace...

I second on that, the radio just announced that several sources have said he has died.

Steven Snyder wrote:I second on that, the radio just announced that several sources have said he has died.

Yeah, there's conflicting reports of his death. Some Italian news agencies have said he's dead and most others, including MSNBC and other American media say he's still alive.

If he is in fact, dead, what kind of welcome do you suppose God will give him when he gets to the Pearly Gates? "HAH! April Fool's! Get back down there!"

Steven Snyder wrote:I second on that, the radio just announced that several sources have said he has died.

AP is saying that the report comes from an Italian news agency that didn't state any sources. I'll say he isn't dead until it shows on the major news outlets.