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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-04-01 10:43pm
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Durandal wrote:
And so it was A-OK for the Pope to stop secular aid workers from distributing and teaching Africans about condoms. Wow, your logic gets better as you get more fed up and desperate.


Care to prove he did this, seems strange that he was able to stop Secular agencys teaching about Condomns but not a Catholic Aid agency from Teaching about them, or stopping said Aid agency from becoming one of the main Catholic Agencies responsible for Aids and HIV in Africa...



From a review of the two Towers.... 'As for Gimli being comic relief, what if your comic relief had a huge axe and fells dozens of Orcs? That's a pretty cool comic relief. '

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-04-01 10:56pm
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Skelron wrote:
Durandal wrote:
And so it was A-OK for the Pope to stop secular aid workers from distributing and teaching Africans about condoms. Wow, your logic gets better as you get more fed up and desperate.


Care to prove he did this, seems strange that he was able to stop Secular agencys teaching about Condomns but not a Catholic Aid agency from Teaching about them, or stopping said Aid agency from becoming one of the main Catholic Agencies responsible for Aids and HIV in Africa...


BBC wrote:
Vatican in HIV condom row

Using a condom significantly reduces the risk of contracting HIV The Catholic Church has been accused of telling people in countries with high rates of HIV that condoms do not protect against the deadly virus. The claims are made in a Panorama programme called Sex and the Holy City to be screened on BBC One on Sunday.

It says cardinals, bishops, priests and nuns in four continents are saying HIV can pass through tiny holes in condoms.

The World Health Organization has condemned the comments and warned the Vatican it is putting lives at risk.

The claims come just a day after a report revealed that a young person is now infected with HIV every 14 seconds.

Half of all new infections are now in people under the age of 25 and most of these are young women living in the developing world.

Condom advice

Health experts around the world urge people to use condoms to protect themselves from HIV and a host of sexually transmitted infections.

However, the Catholic Church has consistently refused to back such calls. The Vatican is opposed to contraception and has advocated that people change their behaviour instead.

But according to Panorama, the Church is now telling people that condoms do not work.

In an interview, one of the Vatican's most senior cardinals Alfonso Lopez Trujillo suggested HIV could even pass through condoms.

"The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom," he says.

The cardinal, who is president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, suggests that governments should urge people not to use condoms.

"These margins of uncertainty...should represent an obligation on the part of the health ministries and all these campaigns to act in the same way as they do with regard to cigarettes, which they state to be a danger."

The programme includes a Catholic nun advising her HIV-infected choir master not to use condoms with his wife because "the virus can pass through".

The Archbishop of Nairobi Raphael Ndingi Nzeki told Panaroma that condoms were helping to spread the virus.

"Aids...has grown so fast because of the availability of condoms," he said.

In Kenya, one in five people are HIV positive.

Gordon Wambi, director of an Aids testing programme in Lwak, near Lake Victoria, told the programme that he could not distribute condoms because of opposition from the Catholic Church.

"Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids," he said.


According to Panaroma, the claims about condoms are repeated by Catholics as far apart as Asia and Latin America.

Claims condemned

Catherine Hankins, chief scientific advisor to UNAids, condemned the Church's comments.

"It is very unfortunate to have this type of misinformation being broadcast," she told BBC News Online.

"It is a concern. From a technical point of view, the statements are totally incorrect.

"Latex condoms are impermeable. They do prevent HIV transmission."

The WHO also attacked the Catholic Church's comments.

"Statements like this are quite dangerous, " a spokeswoman told BBC News Online.

"We are facing a global pandemic which has already killed more than 20 million people and currently affects around 42 million.

"There is so much evidence to show that condoms don't let sexually transmitted infections like HIV through.

"Anyone who says otherwise is just wrong."

The aid agency Christian Aid also attacked the Vatican's attitude.

"Condoms are a straightforward and effective way of preventing HIV transmission and to suggest otherwise is dangerous," said Dr Rachel Baggaley, head of its HIV unit.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-04-01 11:54pm
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The talking heads are already labeling him "John-Paul the Great". Any objective analysis shows his record as pope to be a decidedly mixed one. He gets due credit for his opposition to both Communism and Corporatism, his efforts to broker peace internationally, and his efforts at outreach to the Jewish and Muslim faiths as well as the various Protestant and Orthodox denominations in reverse of centuries of Vatican hostility toward every religion outside of Holy Mother Church. He did acknowledge the Church's errors in the condemnation of Gallileo and more importantly toward its inaction during the Nazi Holocaust.

However, in doctrinal matters, his model was right out of the 13th century. He has done everything he can to water down the Vatican II reforms, encouraged reactionary arch-conservatism within the Church, and has promulgated the irresponsible opposition to sex education and birth-control distribution in Africa, which has contributed markedly to the twin horrors of overpopulation and the AIDS epidemic presently ravaging the continent. He has refused to take any stand on pedophile priests other than to maintain the present doctrine that the Church can police itself in such matters. He has helped ensure a continuing climate of hostility against homosexuals both with his direct statements as well as his writings and by his stacking of the present Curate with arch-conservative Cardinals who will have in their hands the whole power for choosing the next pope. This means that the Church is only going to become more, not less, reactionary, towards any tendency to Modernism or toleration. A John XXIII he definitely wasn't, and thanks to him, there isn't likely to be another one for generations to come.



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People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
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Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-04-02 12:14am
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Macross wrote:
Psycho Smiley wrote:
Death seems to bring out the selective memories in people. Yes, he did good stuff. But remember the shit he was pulling just before he was incapacitated? The whole "Homosexuality is an Ideology of EVIL!!!111one" bit? I'm not sitting here waiting for him to die, but the only regret I have over it is that they'll probably pick someone worse to replace him.


They also have to do everything in their power to prolong his life for as long as possible. The Pope would have wanted it that way. Death in any way, shape or form is wrong and against the will of God. So lets get him hooked up to those machines and hopefully they wont have to pick another pope for a very long time!


That made me think, hypothetically, what if the pope for some reason degenerates into a Terri Shiavo thing and is in a vegitative state for 15 years and everything? Would he technically still be the pope?

Would Catholics have to follow what he "says" about moral issues and such.(maybe what pepel close to him say he's "saying" ) Would he have any power?



keep on tumblin, just keep tumblin

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"Not this night he doesn"t!!!....um Come in the night!!!um... Trogdor!!!"

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-04-02 02:26am
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tumbletom wrote:
Macross wrote:
Psycho Smiley wrote:
Death seems to bring out the selective memories in people. Yes, he did good stuff. But remember the shit he was pulling just before he was incapacitated? The whole "Homosexuality is an Ideology of EVIL!!!111one" bit? I'm not sitting here waiting for him to die, but the only regret I have over it is that they'll probably pick someone worse to replace him.


They also have to do everything in their power to prolong his life for as long as possible. The Pope would have wanted it that way. Death in any way, shape or form is wrong and against the will of God. So lets get him hooked up to those machines and hopefully they wont have to pick another pope for a very long time!


That made me think, hypothetically, what if the pope for some reason degenerates into a Terri Shiavo thing and is in a vegitative state for 15 years and everything? Would he technically still be the pope?

Would Catholics have to follow what he "says" about moral issues and such.(maybe what pepel close to him say he's "saying" ) Would he have any power?


Hmm... In such an event, they'd probably have to appoint a special mystic able to receive Divine Interpretation of pronouncements like "Bleaaaah" and "Awaaaahh".



When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln

People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House

Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-04-02 10:26am
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The Vatican this morning reports that the Pope is slipping in and out of consciousness... death will probably come within a day or so.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-04-02 01:09pm
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All the news networks concentrating on the pope,makes me think of the Romans watching Christians being thrown to the lions.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-04-02 01:33pm
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Odd, how there doesn't seem to be anything else happening in the world, or at least as the news neats are concerned? Indonesian quakes, Iraq, North Korea.... all put on hold.



Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-04-02 02:06pm
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Yes Coyote, I also find that strange. I live in a country (Sweden, if that isn't clear from my username :wink:) where catholics constitutes about 1.5 % of the population, and still every front page has the pope on it. The television news are all about the pope. There are far more important news.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-04-02 03:57pm
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CNN reports that the Pope has died.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-04-02 03:59pm
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Hardy wrote:
CNN reports that the Pope has died.


Again....



keep on tumblin, just keep tumblin

TUMBLE ON MY FRIENDS!!!!

"And the trogdor comes in the night...."
"Not this night he doesn"t!!!....um Come in the night!!!um... Trogdor!!!"

-Vin Diesel was the person screaming when Boba Fett died.
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-Vin Diesel is the only one to use all 2 gigabytes of Gmail space.
-Vin Diesel is Darth Vader's father.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-04-02 04:00pm
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No, it's official this time.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-04-02 04:01pm
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Link!? I request a link



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-04-02 04:02pm
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Put on your television.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-04-02 04:02pm
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damn... I have to turn the accursed thing on



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There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-04-02 04:03pm
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Several papers have picked it up as well.

RIP



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-04-02 04:04pm
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Mange the Swede wrote:
Put on your television.


I don't have cable or TV signals and cnn.com still says he has a fever and is serious condition.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-04-02 04:04pm
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Well, Alyrium Denryle, here's a link for you:

http://www.yahoo.com/_ylh=X3oDMTB2MXQ5M ... -/s/235150

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-04-02 04:05pm
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4399715.stm

BBC



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-04-02 04:05pm
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Ah, thank you Mange.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-04-02 04:06pm
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The news networks are running the story, and MSNBC has it on their front page.



"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt prior to investigation." -Herbert Spencer

"Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain." - Schiller, Die Jungfrau von Orleans, III vi.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-04-02 06:12pm
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Well, he's dead now.

All in all, I do think he was an okay guy. The things he stood up for that I did not like wree not htings that he started, but were part of the society he lived in, so I don't hold him personally responsible. He did perpetuate these things, however-- typical conservative religious bigot stuff. He also tried to ignore, tjhen minimize, the pedophilia problems within the church.

OTOH, he did make a stance against Communism and the oppression of Eastern Europe, and warned about the excesses of consumerism. He faced the changing demographics within his church by appointing more minorities to positions of leadership. He rallied for support for the world's oppressed and hungry, and denounced the anti-Semitic strain within the church.

Overall I'll say more good than bad, but just by a bit.



Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-04-02 06:23pm
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Coyote wrote:
Well, he's dead now.

All in all, I do think he was an okay guy. The things he stood up for that I did not like wree not htings that he started, but were part of the society he lived in, so I don't hold him personally responsible. He did perpetuate these things, however-- typical conservative religious bigot stuff. He also tried to ignore, tjhen minimize, the pedophilia problems within the church.


Part of the society he lived in? You mean the one he was in autocratic control over?

He was in a position of great power, one that could do great good or great harm, and in many ways he did a lot of harm. Personally I think that outweighs the good he did.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-04-02 08:11pm
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John Paul's fundamental philosophy was that individual human beings are entitled to life, dignity, and freedom. The way I see it, you can make all the arguments you want with how he defined those things, but the fact that the leader of the largest church on Earth believed that--not "kill the infidels", not "convert at gunpoint", not "burn the witches" or "jail the heretics" or even "anyone who doesn't agree with us doesn't deserve our charity" or any other damn thing--outweighs the bad that came with his views.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-04-02 09:03pm
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Regardless of his merits, my friends and I figured that if it looked like he was going to enter a coma or vegetative state his functionaries would have offed him. The LAST thing the Catholic church needs is a living but useless Pontiff.

I was actually surprised how YOUNG he was. My grandmother is almost ten years older, and she's more functional than the Pope has been in years.



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