The Pope have been given the last rites.

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Mange
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Postby Mange » 2005-04-03 01:34pm

Darth Wong wrote:I thought he basically said that Jews are the only non-Catholics who had an alternate route to Heaven, and reiterated that all of the other Christian denominations are wrong. Perhaps someone can dig up a source for news on that.

Well, his close relations with the Jewish community in Krakow during his youth could explain his views on this. One of his closest friends (a Jewish person) was interviewed on CNN this morning and talked about him.

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Postby TheDarkling » 2005-04-03 01:54pm

Darth Wong wrote:Was this Jewish issue controversial in the church? I don't recall hearing about such controversy, and after WW2 and the Catholic Church's feelings of guilt over it, it seems to me that pro-Jewish attitudes were, in fact, a safe route.


Well there is "Jews are nice chaps" and there is "being a Jew is as likely to get you into heaven as following us guys, so if you don’t mind have particular parts of your anatomy cut off look em up".

I think Vatican II basically put the idea about but it was big news when the Pope made the statement a few years ago (since I remember hearing about it and I don’t really have my ear to the ground on such matters).

The fact that he is the first Pope to visit a Jewish place of worship since Peter (or is regarded as such) should say something about it being a step forward.

I'm also not sure they is any particular guilt about WW2 amongst Catholics, the Hitler's Pope Revisionism is rather recent in gaining widespread circulation and in my experience most Catholics wouldn't have the foggiest if you asked them about it.

As for general anti-Semitism, again I don’t think you would find much hand wringing about it, of course it may be that Catholics in Britain are a little more sympathetic given they themselves have historically faced persecution so they don’t really identify with the trend of Anti-Semitism and thus my sample is biased.

I imagine those higher up in the Vatican stick to the line that their predecessors during WW2 did nothing particularly wrong although there has been recognition that historically the Church has been plagued by Anti-Semitism (although again much of that recognition came from the late Pope and under his watch).

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Postby Coyote » 2005-04-03 05:06pm

For a long time the Catholic Church's position was the the Jews killed Jesus, and the time around Easter, when the "Passion Play" was enacted, actors portraying Jews wore masks with gigantic hooked noses and beetle brows, and walked hunched over. The play was typically followed by brawling in the street in which Jews were rousted out of their homes and beaten. This was more of a Middle Ages/Renaissance era thing...not, like, pre-WW2.

But even though the popularity of that "wilding" gradually went out of style, the Church still held Jews responsible, until Vatican II. JP-II was very popular in Israel because he did a lot to de-escalate religious tension between Christians and Jews, and now folks like Mel Gibson's family, and their views of Jews as "Christ-Killers", are more marginalized, even though they are otherwise the types of devoted, pre-Vatican-II adherents that would ordinarily be encouraged back into the fold by a hard line leader.
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Postby Skelron » 2005-04-08 05:42pm

Okay as I realise that posting in the good riddence thread is likely a mistake I have taken it here.

[Quote=Stravo]And as soon as they can provide two miracles he's accomplished then he's a saint otherwise he's just a man. A man who could care less if his church is infested with pedophiles.
[/Quote]

I wasn't arguing he be made a Saint or denying it, I was touching and I apologise if I did not make it clear, upon claims by people that the idea that he helped to defeat communism where false.

I was pointing out that the vast majourity of Polish people who took part in events that led to a bloodless overthrow of the Communist regime in Poland look at the pope as the inspiration for what they did. That they feel so strongly about PJPII that they are calling for his Sainthood, I was neither supporting nor arguing against their calls.

As it is I would care to see evidence from those denying his place in those events that they are indeed overblown over estimated that when the leader of Solidarity says he Pope JPII was at least 50% responsbile he is lying. That the Polish people have put the credit on the wrong head etc.

Also Stravo I would like to see some justification for the charge Infested with pedophiles, lets say find evidence that there is a higher likelyhood of finding Pedophile Priests in the Catholic Church than in finding Pedophile Teachers, Scout Masters or that even 1% of priests are Pedophiles.
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Postby Stravo » 2005-04-08 05:55pm

Skelron wrote:Also Stravo I would like to see some justification for the charge Infested with pedophiles, lets say find evidence that there is a higher likelyhood of finding Pedophile Priests in the Catholic Church than in finding Pedophile Teachers, Scout Masters or that even 1% of priests are Pedophiles.


All I need to point to is one of the priests presiding over a mass for the Pope's funeral is a mass protector of pedophiles - so much so that he nearly bankrupted the Boston Archdiocese and had to resign because the scandal. He shufffled pedophile priests around the fucking country without any care in the world that he was providing these predators with a fresh batch of new victims. He was given a post of honor at the pope's funeral. Speaks volumes to me.

You wanna quibble about numbers you go right ahead and TRY and get valid numbers from the church about its priests. How many are pedophiles? They really won't tell you. How can you get accurate numbers from an insitution actively protecting them jackass? All they have are best guesses and estimates and it doesn't strike you as insanely hypocritical that an instituion that is supposed to represent GOD on Earth is actively protecting men who are RAPING the most precious of God's creations - the children.

Teachers and others aren't claiming divine insitutional rights, aren't tax free, aren't saying that they are the last word on whther you go to heaven or not. No other group's leaderhsip claims to be fucking INFALLIBLE. They are and should be held to a higher standard because they put themselves there.

And don't be a fucking coward and drag this into another thread asshole. Respond where you've been trolling or don't respond at all. Bringing this into a thread where no one in the Good Riddance thread has been coming here to criticize the man smacks of cowardice and evasiveness. Doing a little thread shopping to have a more friendly audience? Don't play those fucking games here with me jackass.
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Skelron
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Postby Skelron » 2005-04-08 07:11pm

Stravo wrote:[And don't be a fucking coward and drag this into another thread asshole. Respond where you've been trolling or don't respond at all. Bringing this into a thread where no one in the Good Riddance thread has been coming here to criticize the man smacks of cowardice and evasiveness. Doing a little thread shopping to have a more friendly audience? Don't play those fucking games here with me jackass.


I've sent you a PM on this matter Stravo, and so won't be sending anymore replys tonight on the matter. With all due respect I think you have made a mistake about the nature of this thread. If it turns out that I am indeed at fault I will apologise.
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