The Pope have been given the last rites.

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Postby Lord Pounder » 2005-04-02 09:00pm

I'm very tempted to start singing Ding Dong the Witch is gone.

It's annoying to read the different posts. The Pope is evil or the reactionary he's only human. As i understand it Catholics believe the Pope is Gods represenative on earth and according to them is infailable. Once again christians want it both ways.
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Postby Psycho Smiley » 2005-04-02 09:26pm

Lord Pounder wrote:As i understand it Catholics believe the Pope is Gods represenative on earth and according to them is infailable. Once again christians want it both ways.


Ah, but he's only infallible when he wants to be. He has to make a certain kind of official pronouncement. The rest of the time, you just have to listen to him because he's the assistant manager.
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Postby The Prime Necromancer » 2005-04-02 09:38pm

Psycho Smiley wrote:Ah, but he's only infallible when he wants to be. He has to make a certain kind of official pronouncement. The rest of the time, you just have to listen to him because he's the assistant manager.


It's called speaking ex cathedra, and it's only been done a handful of times in the church's history.
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Postby Durandal » 2005-04-02 09:48pm

Psycho Smiley wrote:
Lord Pounder wrote:As i understand it Catholics believe the Pope is Gods represenative on earth and according to them is infailable. Once again christians want it both ways.


Ah, but he's only infallible when he wants to be. He has to make a certain kind of official pronouncement. The rest of the time, you just have to listen to him because he's the assistant manager.


And even then, he can't do it at his leisure. In order to speak ex cathedra about an issue, it must be one in which there is general consensus among Catholics world-wide. So the Pope couldn't just come out and say, "Abortions for everyone!" in his official, infallible capacity, since a significant proportion of Catholics do not agree.
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Postby Straha » 2005-04-02 10:30pm

The Prime Necromancer wrote:
Psycho Smiley wrote:Ah, but he's only infallible when he wants to be. He has to make a certain kind of official pronouncement. The rest of the time, you just have to listen to him because he's the assistant manager.


It's called speaking ex cathedra, and it's only been done a handful of times in the church's history.


Twice actually, once about the Immaculate Conception, and once about the bodily assumption of mary into heaven.



That being said JOhn Paul II was, for all his faults, a good pope. The people who call him, rightly so at times, conservative miss the point that Catholics are on a whole split between those who view the church as something to do on Sunday morning, and those who seriously believe that the Catholic church has become too liberal and that Vatican II was, at least partially, a mistake. He, following his predecessor, bypassed the Papal Oath, and gave up a lot of the kingly regalia. THough I disagree with him, and the church, on almost every issue I will miss this man.
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Postby Rogue 9 » 2005-04-02 10:53pm

Stark wrote:Regardless of his merits, my friends and I figured that if it looked like he was going to enter a coma or vegetative state his functionaries would have offed him. The LAST thing the Catholic church needs is a living but useless Pontiff.

I was actually surprised how YOUNG he was. My grandmother is almost ten years older, and she's more functional than the Pope has been in years.

Your grandmother's never been shot, I would presume.
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Postby Aaron » 2005-04-02 11:04pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Your grandmother's never been shot, I would presume.


Has that been proven to have any long term effect on him?
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Postby Iceberg » 2005-04-02 11:07pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:Your grandmother's never been shot, I would presume.


Has that been proven to have any long term effect on him?

He's also had a number of physical degenerative diseases including Parkinson's for at least the last decade.
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Postby Rogue 9 » 2005-04-02 11:08pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:Your grandmother's never been shot, I would presume.

Has that been proven to have any long term effect on him?

I don't know. It wouldn't cause the Parkinson's disease, but either way some people just don't live as long as others. *Shrug* My paternal grandfather died in his late 70s, while one of my maternal great grandmothers lived to be 104.
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Postby Coyote » 2005-04-02 11:16pm

Vendetta wrote:Part of the society he lived in? You mean the one he was in autocratic control over?

He was in a position of great power, one that could do great good or great harm, and in many ways he did a lot of harm. Personally I think that outweighs the good he did.


Very true, but he also grew up as a Catholic, and probably felt that the Church was right and that its points of view, dogma, etc, were the correct ones. Obviously, or he never would have become a Pope. So since he was old enough to form cognizant thought his society (parents, friends, priests, etc) told him the Church was the way, the truth, etc.

It is true that people can, and many times do, break out of the moulds of their youth, but at the same time many do not, or follow the paths subconsciously: children of abusers frequently become abusers themselves, even if they are aware of it and try not to be.

I do indeed find it disappointing that he did not confront the pedophilia in the Church with the same moral conviction and head-on courage with which he confronted dictators and Communism. When the time came to face corruption in his own backyard, he faltered. He does indeed deserve rebuke for that.

But look at the problems the Church had before: priests that want to marry (not dally with children, but marry normally), gays or lesbians in the Church, ordaining woman, the refusal to acknowledge birth control or the spread of AIDS-- these are problems endemic to Catholic dogma as a whole, not things that JP-II pulled out of his own ass.

If the Catholic Church had been a paragon of tolerance and an enemy of bigotry until he took over, and then became sexist, phobic, and corrupt, then yeah, I say vilify away. But that wasn't the case. He didn't clean up problems in his own ranks, but he did confront needed enemies-- the cruelty of the Communist regime in Eastern Europe, for one. When other Popes, in the past, had been accused of complicity with such things as Nazi cruelty and aggression, JP-II didn't follow that course.

What of the admonition to remove the log from your own eye before pointing out the splinter in others, or being without sin before casting a stone? He failed to heed that. He did, indeed, lead the Church through years of hypocrisy. But he didn't cower before dictators and human-rights abusers in government, either.

His weakness was his inability to see his mother Church as a fallable beast. It is, always has been, and will be. But that is the nature of religions and those who lead them, and in that JP-II was no different than any mortal man.
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Postby MKSheppard » 2005-04-02 11:39pm

Lord Pounder wrote:I'm very tempted to start singing Ding Dong the Witch is gone.


And I'm very tempted to tell you to jump in front of a Underground train
next time you feel suicidal, instead of taking an assload of pills and slicing
your arms up, you fucked up asshole.
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Postby Alyrium Denryle » 2005-04-02 11:48pm

I believe that Coyote pretty much expressed my sentiments perfectly. Thank you.
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Postby Aaron » 2005-04-03 12:04am

Iceberg wrote:He's also had a number of physical degenerative diseases including Parkinson's for at least the last decade.


Very true.

Rogue 9 wrote:I don't know. It wouldn't cause the Parkinson's disease, but either way some people just don't live as long as others. *Shrug* My paternal grandfather died in his late 70s, while one of my maternal great grandmothers lived to be 104.


Well it would seem like his body just finally gave out. It was just his time I guess.
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Postby Enforcer Talen » 2005-04-03 12:37am

Coyote wrote:
Vendetta wrote:Part of the society he lived in? You mean the one he was in autocratic control over?

He was in a position of great power, one that could do great good or great harm, and in many ways he did a lot of harm. Personally I think that outweighs the good he did.


Very true, but he also grew up as a Catholic, and probably felt that the Church was right and that its points of view, dogma, etc, were the correct ones. Obviously, or he never would have become a Pope.


quick thing - there are prolly a dozen popes who didnt believe a damn word.
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Postby Straha » 2005-04-03 12:42am

Enforcer Talen wrote:
Coyote wrote:
Vendetta wrote:Part of the society he lived in? You mean the one he was in autocratic control over?

He was in a position of great power, one that could do great good or great harm, and in many ways he did a lot of harm. Personally I think that outweighs the good he did.


Very true, but he also grew up as a Catholic, and probably felt that the Church was right and that its points of view, dogma, etc, were the correct ones. Obviously, or he never would have become a Pope.


quick thing - there are prolly a dozen popes who didnt believe a damn word.

Yes, but most of those popes came when the papacy was still seen as a proper monarchy, whereas nowadays it is seen as primarilly a religious office instead.
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Postby Lord Pounder » 2005-04-03 10:12am

MKSheppard wrote:
Lord Pounder wrote:I'm very tempted to start singing Ding Dong the Witch is gone.


And I'm very tempted to tell you to jump in front of a Underground train
next time you feel suicidal, instead of taking an assload of pills and slicing
your arms up, you fucked up asshole.


And don't you have a parent to shoot at deaf boy?
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Postby Darth Wong » 2005-04-03 10:34am

Coyote wrote:What of the admonition to remove the log from your own eye before pointing out the splinter in others, or being without sin before casting a stone? He failed to heed that. He did, indeed, lead the Church through years of hypocrisy. But he didn't cower before dictators and human-rights abusers in government, either.

Why should he? They posed no direct threat to him. But at no point in his tenure did he ever say or do anything that was not the safe route within the context of the Church. Every action, every statement was geared to the prejudices of the Church elite; of course he could lambast communism, because communism was anti-Christian. But where was his voice when an actual leader was required? The sex-abuse scandal, the AIDS crisis in Africa, gays, women, the Church's attitude toward other Christian denominations, all of these issues were opportunities for true leadership, and he didn't demonstrate any.
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Postby Darth Wong » 2005-04-03 10:35am

MKSheppard wrote:
Lord Pounder wrote:I'm very tempted to start singing Ding Dong the Witch is gone.

And I'm very tempted to tell you to jump in front of a Underground train next time you feel suicidal, instead of taking an assload of pills and slicing your arms up, you fucked up asshole.

Do you have anything to say on papal issues that isn't blind emoting? You need to come up with a better response to criticisms of JP2's legacy than "I'm really pissed off that you say this!!!"
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Postby TheDarkling » 2005-04-03 12:13pm

Darth Wong wrote:Why should he? They posed no direct threat to him. But at no point in his tenure did he ever say or do anything that was not the safe route within the context of the Church. Every action, every statement was geared to the prejudices of the Church elite; of course he could lambast communism, because communism was anti-Christian. But where was his voice when an actual leader was required? The sex-abuse scandal, the AIDS crisis in Africa, gays, women, the Church's attitude toward other Christian denominations, all of these issues were opportunities for true leadership, and he didn't demonstrate any.


Saying Jews didn’t need converting was something of a departure.

On the subject of other Christian denominations, the Pope did come out and smooth over maters when others faiths were offended by a document Cardinal Ratzinger put out.
In essence making it clear that the Orthodox Church is on a very good footing, other denominations a weaker footing and non Christian faiths middling (although one doesn’t have to be a Christian to be saved).

That doesn't seem particularly bad (and it seems that Ratzinger was pushing a harder line which he Pope moderated after the fact) but perhaps I am missing something since such events aren't of great importance to me.

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Postby Dahak » 2005-04-03 12:18pm

Lord Pounder wrote:I'm very tempted to start singing Ding Dong the Witch is gone.

Incidentally that is what I did when they announced it...
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Postby Darth Wong » 2005-04-03 12:21pm

TheDarkling wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Why should he? They posed no direct threat to him. But at no point in his tenure did he ever say or do anything that was not the safe route within the context of the Church. Every action, every statement was geared to the prejudices of the Church elite; of course he could lambast communism, because communism was anti-Christian. But where was his voice when an actual leader was required? The sex-abuse scandal, the AIDS crisis in Africa, gays, women, the Church's attitude toward other Christian denominations, all of these issues were opportunities for true leadership, and he didn't demonstrate any.

Saying Jews didn’t need converting was something of a departure.

Yes it was. However, it does not outweigh his spectacular failure on issues of women, AIDS, sex-abuse, and other Christian denominations.
On the subject of other Christian denominations, the Pope did come out and smooth over maters when others faiths were offended by a document Cardinal Ratzinger put out.

In essence making it clear that the Orthodox Church is on a very good footing, other denominations a weaker footing and non Christian faiths middling (although one doesn’t have to be a Christian to be saved).

I thought he basically said that Jews are the only non-Catholics who had an alternate route to Heaven, and reiterated that all of the other Christian denominations are wrong. Perhaps someone can dig up a source for news on that.
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Postby Psycho Smiley » 2005-04-03 12:24pm

Darth Wong wrote:I thought he basically said that Jews are the only non-Catholics who had an alternate route to Heaven, and reiterated that all of the other Christian denominations are wrong. Perhaps someone can dig up a source for news on that.

Well, I don't have a source, but that is the interpretation the Ontario Catholic schools are running with. I'd hope that they aren't just pulling it out of their asses, but I can't be sure.
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Postby Thinkmarble » 2005-04-03 12:37pm

Go there [url="http://www.religioustolerance.org/rcc_salv.htm]ReligiousTolerance: Can non-catholics be saved ?[/url]

Having read through it, the church seems to be confused about that matter.

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Postby TheDarkling » 2005-04-03 12:38pm

Darth Wong wrote:Yes it was. However, it does not outweigh his spectacular failure on issues of women, AIDS, sex-abuse, and other Christian denominations.


I didn't say it did.

You said "But at no point in his tenure did he ever say or do anything that was not the safe route within the context of the Church."

and

"all of these issues were opportunities for true leadership, and he didn't demonstrate any."

Which conflicts with the fact that (as you admit) he took a new direction and showed leadership on the issue of Judaism.

I thought he basically said that Jews are the only non-Catholics who had an alternate route to Heaven, and reiterated that all of the other Christian denominations are wrong. Perhaps someone can dig up a source for news on that.


He might have said Jews were the only other rock solid "conduit" (if you will) to God but the document the Cardinal put out goes to the time of separating things in four levels (Catholic church, Orthodox Church, Other Christians, non Christians).
Why bother if it is a case of Catholic = Salivation, Not Catholic = Enjoy the furnace.

The document clearly states that the Orthodox Church is more or less Catholic (No offence intended to any members of the Orthodox faith) except they don’t follow the Pope.
A minor procedure difference which doesn't really affect their chances much.

The other Christian churches are in partial communion with the Church (i.e. they are somewhat right).

Here is a direct quote from the Popes speech clarifying the document

"Salvation is not denied to non-Christians and other Christian churches also have, precious elements of salvation."

That doesn't seem to be saying non Catholics (excluding Jews) are going to hell but rather the opposite.

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Postby Darth Wong » 2005-04-03 12:48pm

TheDarkling wrote:You said "But at no point in his tenure did he ever say or do anything that was not the safe route within the context of the Church."

Was this Jewish issue controversial in the church? I don't recall hearing about such controversy, and after WW2 and the Catholic Church's feelings of guilt over it, it seems to me that pro-Jewish attitudes were, in fact, a safe route.
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