Gaza situation discussion

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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby [R_H] » 2009-01-05 09:11am

Also, I hear reports of DU shells and the usual screams of dirty nuclear warfare. Typical, though it's not like Hamas have anything warranting such ordnance.


DU shells? :wtf: I doubt sabots would be ammunition of choice in the engagements that will be/are happening in Gaza. What idiots are claiming nuclear warfare is going on?

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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Beowulf » 2009-01-05 09:25am

[R_H] wrote:
Also, I hear reports of DU shells and the usual screams of dirty nuclear warfare. Typical, though it's not like Hamas have anything warranting such ordnance.


DU shells? :wtf: I doubt sabots would be ammunition of choice in the engagements that will be/are happening in Gaza. What idiots are claiming nuclear warfare is going on?


The Israeli tanks have DU shells available, and uranium = nukes!
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby [R_H] » 2009-01-05 10:23am

Beowulf wrote:
[R_H] wrote:
Also, I hear reports of DU shells and the usual screams of dirty nuclear warfare. Typical, though it's not like Hamas have anything warranting such ordnance.


DU shells? :wtf: I doubt sabots would be ammunition of choice in the engagements that will be/are happening in Gaza. What idiots are claiming nuclear warfare is going on?


The Israeli tanks have DU shells available, and uranium = nukes!


According to the IMI site, the sabots are tungsten. The ones currently being produced at least.

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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Admiral Valdemar » 2009-01-05 10:24am

I believe most 30 mm autocanon rounds are DU, so that might explain it too. The point of contention here is the "uranium" in DU, nevermind that any heavy metal is inherently toxic.

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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby [R_H] » 2009-01-05 10:31am

Admiral Valdemar wrote:I believe most 30 mm autocanon rounds are DU, so that might explain it too. The point of contention here is the "uranium" in DU, nevermind that any heavy metal is inherently toxic.


Hell, even DU's friendly planet-saving alternative, tungsten, is also toxic. Not that the facts matter to people who get their panties in a knot about uranium and radiation and nukes etc. Israel isn't into IFVs, so I'm not sure which vehicles (other than their patrol boats) mount 30mm autocannons. In the footage broadcast near the Israel-Gaza border before the incursion, I wasn't able to see any vehicles other than the heavy APCs and Merkavas.

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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Coyote » 2009-01-05 11:04am

The area is rife with hysterical reporting and over-inflated claims. The Hezbollah attempts to doctor evidence for heightened hysteria I mentioned earlier; remember the Iraq reports a year or so ago where a woman claimed that bullets were fired into her house and held up two unfired rounds to "prove" her point; now the Taliban claims that 5,220 foreign troops have been killed by them in Afghanistan.

Hyperinflation of claims in combat, either of personal prowess or suffering, is par for the couse with the region. Claiming that "dirty nuke" warfare is being used is probably being done to stir sympathies. That DU rounds have developed a bad reputation certainly won't help matters much.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby [R_H] » 2009-01-05 11:39am

Coyote wrote:The area is rife with hysterical reporting and over-inflated claims. The Hezbollah attempts to doctor evidence for heightened hysteria I mentioned earlier; remember the Iraq reports a year or so ago where a woman claimed that bullets were fired into her house and held up two unfired rounds to "prove" her point; now the Taliban claims that 5,220 foreign troops have been killed by them in Afghanistan.

Hyperinflation of claims in combat, either of personal prowess or suffering, is par for the couse with the region. Claiming that "dirty nuke" warfare is being used is probably being done to stir sympathies. That DU rounds have developed a bad reputation certainly won't help matters much.


Like Hamas claiming it has captured a soldier, or after the incursion, Hamas not revealing how many casualties it has taken. Why does the media even bother depending on Palestinian sources (and not questioning what the Palestinian reporters are saying and broadcasting) for its reports on the situation in Gaza? It's too bad Israel isn't allowing international journalists into Gaza.

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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby CJvR » 2009-01-05 12:44pm

Well media only have two sources. From Israel - distant images of Gaza and the evil SS/IDF panzer corps... Then blood and gore from the Hamas propaganda ministry. You need something flashy to show so IDF tanks, distant blasts and injured civilians become a natural storyline. You hardly even need to engage your brain to report it, just point at the tanks then the blasts and cry a bit when the hospital tapes run and you can lounge on the beaches or hang in bars the other 23 hours of the day.

Try explaining the nature of DU to a fundamentalist who have decided it is satan incarnate. It is not a matter of facts, it is a matter of belief. I have argued this issue sometimes and generally all of the DU hysterics have switched their brains off after the word Uranium. One was quite shocked when I explained how DU was less radioactive than natural uranium.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Coyote » 2009-01-05 12:49pm

Let's face it, what would happen if no Palestinian sources at all were cited by the international media? Claims of media bias, Jewish control of the media, silencing the victims, etc, etc... it's lose-lose.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!

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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Kanastrous » 2009-01-05 01:05pm

CJvR wrote:One was quite shocked when I explained how DU was less radioactive than natural uranium.


Sounds like they're unclear on the meaning of the word depleted.

Assuming that they knew that's what the d is for.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Coyote » 2009-01-05 01:14pm

It may be that, after the 1991 Gulf War and the coverage of Gulf War Syndrome and the link to DU rounds, they now assume that any use of DU is done so with the intent of causing "Gulf War Syndrom" on others on purpose.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!

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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Siege » 2009-01-05 01:36pm

Frankly I haven't seen much that warrants these bitter claims about "the media" in relation to the Gaza campaign. It's hardly as if international broadcasting corporations are buying wholesale into Hamas' propaganda: In fact, most halfway decent sources I've checked so far take great pains to paint a balanced picture of the goings-on. The Beeb, the Times, Reuters et al will quote Palestinian sources as saying X number of civilians have been killed etc. but they're hardly treating such claims as gospel.

Now I'm sure there's kooky websites screaming bloody murder over the evils of DU rounds, mustard gas and mind-control rays used by the dastardly Israelis to suppress the poor Gazan proles, but I've yet to see those claims repeated by any major news source.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Coyote » 2009-01-05 02:00pm

It's the business angle of the media: controversy and atrocity sells.

If the Israelis say the Moon is made of rock, and the Palestinians say itis made of green cheese, the media will report "controversy about the Moon" as if both sides were valid so as to keep the pot stirring.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!

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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby [R_H] » 2009-01-05 03:09pm

Golani soldier escapes kidnap attempt

A Golani soldier managed to single-handedly foil an attempt to kidnap him during nocturnal operations in the Gaza Strip overnight Sunday, Israel Radio reported.

Soldiers from the IDF's Golani infantry brigade were fighting in the northern part of the Gaza Strip when they entered a house on which they had previous intelligence indicating that it was used as a Hamas command center.

Upon entering the house, the soldiers discovered entrances to several tunnels, which the Hamas terrorists holed up in the house had used to escape underground to neighboring houses. According to the report, the terrorists were shooting into the building when the soldiers entered.

One of the soldiers reportedly followed the gunmen into a tunnel and managed to contain several Hamas fighters in an underground firefight, before teaming up with his comrades again. Two IAF helicopters were scrambled to support the infantrymen, Israel Radio said.

The military assessed that the Palestinian terrorists were trying to lure the soldier to go after them alone into the tunnel in an effort to kidnap him.

In related news, the IDF dismissed Hamas claims that the group had succeeded in kidnapping two soldiers. A statement by the IDF spokesperson said the army does not comment on "rumors and mendacious reports" issued by Hamas, and emphasized that if an incident of Hamas kidnapping a soldier were to occur, the army would break the news to the public in a proper and timely manner.

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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Sea Skimmer » 2009-01-05 03:50pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:I believe most 30 mm autocanon rounds are DU, so that might explain it too. The point of contention here is the "uranium" in DU, nevermind that any heavy metal is inherently toxic.


Some do, but it’s irrelevant because in the entire IDF, you will not find one single infantry fighting vehicle with an autocannon! They simply do not use that type of vehicle, nor any other AFV with that sort of armament, unless you want to count some obsolete self propelled anti aircraft guns which are not going to use DU shells either. The IDF is a force of tanks with big guns, and APCs with nothing heavier then .50cal. They don’t doctrinally accept the IFV concept, and they can’t afford the things anyway. The guns on Apache and Cobra gunships don’t use DU either. They do have some autocannon on patrol boats, I cannot think of a rational reason why patrol boats would ever be armed with kinetic ammo.

It’s possible a handful of DU shells have been fired off by tank crews by mistake, HEAT would crack any bunker or building Hamas could build, but that’s the end of it. This is just politically motivated bullshit from idiots. If they had any sense they’d point out with so much fighting in Gaza over the last 40 years the area likely has significantly elevated levels of lead in the ground and ground water, which may well be sufficient to cause health problems. Easily hundreds of tons of lead bullets have built up in the place, and while large chunks of lead matter little, every time a bullet strikes something it makes dust.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Admiral Valdemar » 2009-01-05 04:26pm

The only source I could think of was the Apaches for those reasons stated, and even that I found bizarre given the total lack of any use for DU rounds in that theatre.

None of that changes the fact that many will leap on such rumours and weave their little tales of impossibly stupid bullshit. Some of the blogs I've read in the past about Iraq in 2003 had some truly fucked up concepts in them to do with DU, along the lines of the rounds sucking people out of buildings as they flew past and detonating in mini-mushroom clouds of fallout.

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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Siege » 2009-01-05 04:32pm

Coyote wrote:It's the business angle of the media: controversy and atrocity sells.

If the Israelis say the Moon is made of rock, and the Palestinians say itis made of green cheese, the media will report "controversy about the Moon" as if both sides were valid so as to keep the pot stirring.


That's highly exaggerated- it's only in cases where Hamas claims "we've kidnapped two soldiers" and the IDF says "nuh-uh" that media will report the stories of both sides, and considering the fog of war, the fact that such abductions have happened before in a comparable situation, and the fact that no journalists are even allowed to enter Gaza you can hardly fault them for it.

All I'm seeing in mainstream media is reports that "the IDF is pushing deeper into Gaza", that "according to Palestinian sources" dozens of people have apparently been killed since the start of the ground push, and that there's "fierce fighting" going on, laced with the occasional talking head and pictures of billowing clouds of smoke rising over Gaza City. What more do you expect? Because I don't see the "hysterical reporting and over-inflated claims", as you put it earlier- in fact, I just see media trying to do the best they can in the midst of the fog of war and a two-way propaganda storm.

This conflict is hardly the war in Georgia where the fact that the Georgians shot first was hardly ever mentioned; you don't exactly have to dig deep into the big pile o' news to figure out that Hamas was shooting rockets before the Israelis decided to take the gloves off, it's mentioned all over the place. Certainly there's plenty criticism that can be leveled against international news outlets, but where's the mainstream hysterical reporting? Are you sure you're not conflating idiot bloggers who don't know what they're talking about with "the media"?
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby MKSheppard » 2009-01-05 05:06pm

HAMAS arms caches

that is one heavily hidden arms cache.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby The Spartan » 2009-01-05 07:33pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:The only source I could think of was the Apaches for those reasons stated, and even that I found bizarre given the total lack of any use for DU rounds in that theatre.

What about strafing runs by fixed wing aircraft? On that note, do that even have any aircraft that would carry DU rounds?
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Kanastrous » 2009-01-05 08:26pm

Maybe F-15s or F-16s with gun pods? Can their internal guns use DU ammo...?

I know that there were a lot of podded weapons for the F-4, but I don't think there are any F-4s left in the IDF/AF except for some recce models.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Fingolfin_Noldor » 2009-01-05 08:33pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:I believe most 30 mm autocanon rounds are DU, so that might explain it too. The point of contention here is the "uranium" in DU, nevermind that any heavy metal is inherently toxic.


Some do, but it’s irrelevant because in the entire IDF, you will not find one single infantry fighting vehicle with an autocannon! They simply do not use that type of vehicle, nor any other AFV with that sort of armament, unless you want to count some obsolete self propelled anti aircraft guns which are not going to use DU shells either. The IDF is a force of tanks with big guns, and APCs with nothing heavier then .50cal. They don’t doctrinally accept the IFV concept, and they can’t afford the things anyway. The guns on Apache and Cobra gunships don’t use DU either. They do have some autocannon on patrol boats, I cannot think of a rational reason why patrol boats would ever be armed with kinetic ammo.

Skimmer, they started deploying the IFV (or APC?) version of the Merkava IV. Granted, it doesn't seem to have anything more than a .50 cal gun from the looks of it.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Coyote » 2009-01-05 08:42pm

Most Israeli APCs are just that-- armored personnel carriers, and typically modified tanks. The Achzarit is the heavily modified chassis of T-55 and T-62 tanks captured years ago. They don't have the range of capabilities of IFVs, such as the Bradley or Russian variants of the BMP-- a heavier gun, some sort of anti-tank missile, that sort of thing.

An IFV is pretty much a "light tank" with troop seats. The Merk APC wouldn't qualify.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!

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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Kanastrous » 2009-01-05 11:30pm

Kanastrous wrote:Image


Saw video footage of a couple of these things detonating. Looks like some sort of area-effect weapon; you can briefly see what looks like maybe a bus that bursts and looses a cone of glowing projectiles that sure look like they create explosions when they hit the ground. Certainly not flares.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Chris OFarrell » 2009-01-05 11:43pm

Flares can, well, flare when they hit stuff quite brightly.

But I very much dobut this is a weapon, its just far too slow to be a credable threat to infintry, doesn't really appear to do any damage to the buildings it touches, and its *far* too random for the 'as clean as we can be' image the IDF are trying to push.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby [R_H] » 2009-01-06 07:25am

Admiral Valdemar wrote:The only source I could think of was the Apaches for those reasons stated, and even that I found bizarre given the total lack of any use for DU rounds in that theatre.

None of that changes the fact that many will leap on such rumours and weave their little tales of impossibly stupid bullshit. Some of the blogs I've read in the past about Iraq in 2003 had some truly fucked up concepts in them to do with DU, along the lines of the rounds sucking people out of buildings as they flew past and detonating in mini-mushroom clouds of fallout.


I don't think the 30mm cannons on the Apaches fire anything but HE or HEDP. I know that the A-10 can't fire kinetic penetrators because the sabots would get sucked up by the engines. The same probably goes for helicopters.


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