Gaza situation discussion

[Kanastrous]

There's a scale for sympathy.

Right now, I would much rather be living in Sderot, than Gaza City, considering where the greater density of explosives is falling.

[Beowulf]

I haven't seen many people sympathize with the "brave, gritty and determined" Hamas recruits who get killed en masse. Rather, people seem to sympathize with Joe Gaza and his family who have to -again- camp out in a warzone marked by rapidly dwindling supplies of food, water and medicine.

If there is a reason Israel is losing the PR war it isn't because of people's innate sympathy for underdog Hamas: it's because all the other Palestinians who are killed or are otherwise affected during the hunt for Hamas. I know all about collateral damage, the repulsive human shield tactics employed by Hamas, and how Israel does a lot to avoid civilian casualties, but it's kind of hard not to feel sympathy for the average citizen of Gaza City right now.

I do feel sympathy, but they elected an organization that regularly engages in war crimes. So, sucks to be them.

[bobalot]

I haven't seen many people sympathize with the "brave, gritty and determined" Hamas recruits who get killed en masse. Rather, people seem to sympathize with Joe Gaza and his family who have to -again- camp out in a warzone marked by rapidly dwindling supplies of food, water and medicine.

If there is a reason Israel is losing the PR war it isn't because of people's innate sympathy for underdog Hamas: it's because all the other Palestinians who are killed or are otherwise affected during the hunt for Hamas. I know all about collateral damage, the repulsive human shield tactics employed by Hamas, and how Israel does a lot to avoid civilian casualties, but it's kind of hard not to feel sympathy for the average citizen of Gaza City right now.

But not for the average Arab/(Bedouin) or Jewish or Christian (Israeli) citizen of the Israeli South.?

Of course, but they are not getting killed in the hundreds and being slowly starved of food and medicine. (Even with the increased amounts so graciously allowed by Israel, its nowhere enough to sustain a city of 1.5 million. Hasn't been for months, maybe a year).

Incidentally, the Bedouin are discriminated against by Israelis as well, which makes their situation doubly shitty. It's not like the Israelis give two shits about them. Their homes are still being demolished by the hundreds to make for "Jew only" housing. Link

[Bilbo]

I haven't seen many people sympathize with the "brave, gritty and determined" Hamas recruits who get killed en masse. Rather, people seem to sympathize with Joe Gaza and his family who have to -again- camp out in a warzone marked by rapidly dwindling supplies of food, water and medicine.

If there is a reason Israel is losing the PR war it isn't because of people's innate sympathy for underdog Hamas: it's because all the other Palestinians who are killed or are otherwise affected during the hunt for Hamas. I know all about collateral damage, the repulsive human shield tactics employed by Hamas, and how Israel does a lot to avoid civilian casualties, but it's kind of hard not to feel sympathy for the average citizen of Gaza City right now.

Why feel any sympathy for a group of people who voted in a well known terrorist organization? Anyone in Gaza with any intelligence knows Hamas was interested in three things: recruits, human shields, and bad PR for Israel. With this in mind they still voted to elect Hamas and have done fuck all to remove them from power.

[Kanastrous]

Not everybody voted for HAMAS. And it's not as though anybody who didn't like them, can just pick up and move at will.

[The Grim Squeaker]

I haven't seen many people sympathize with the "brave, gritty and determined" Hamas recruits who get killed en masse. Rather, people seem to sympathize with Joe Gaza and his family who have to -again- camp out in a warzone marked by rapidly dwindling supplies of food, water and medicine.

If there is a reason Israel is losing the PR war it isn't because of people's innate sympathy for underdog Hamas: it's because all the other Palestinians who are killed or are otherwise affected during the hunt for Hamas. I know all about collateral damage, the repulsive human shield tactics employed by Hamas, and how Israel does a lot to avoid civilian casualties, but it's kind of hard not to feel sympathy for the average citizen of Gaza City right now.

But not for the average Arab/(Bedouin) or Jewish or Christian (Israeli) citizen of the Israeli South.?

Of course, but they are not getting killed in the hundreds and being slowly starved of food and medicine. (Even with the increased amounts so graciously allowed by Israel, its nowhere enough to sustain a city of 1.5 million. Hasn't been for months, maybe a year).

Incidentally, the Bedouin are discriminated against by Israelis as well, which makes their situation doubly shitty. It's not like the Israelis give two shits about them. Their homes are still being demolished by the hundreds to make for "Jew only" housing. Link

Hey, dumbass, I lived in the south for over a year and worked with Bedouin. (In legal, illegal and quasi-legal settlements).

The Bedouin engage en mass in building illegal housing and multiple illegal towns, it's not an opinion, it's a fact. (It's the same as you going off to the middle of Yosemite park bulldozing an acre to build a house with permission or permits, bringing in a herd of sheep and your extended family, then ranting about discrimination if your home gets torn down by park rangers after living there for years).
Most of the illegal houses are in fact left alone, due to the media frenzy that starts about the "big bad government tearing down the poor Bedouin's (illegal) homes". It's bloody discrimination in their favour in terms of (lack of) law enforcement.

Oh, and the report (which doesn't bring up sources beyond "HRW says so") mentions zoning laws being enforced, not

"heir homes are still being demolished by the hundreds to make for "Jew only" housing."

So, where's the bit about Jew only housing? I'd love to see that.
Really, where?

[Siege]

But not for the average Arab/(Bedouin) or Jewish or Christian (Israeli) citizen of the Israeli South.?

Obviously that's not what I meant. I'd loathe to live under the ever-present threat of rocketfire from a bunch of fucknuggets living a few miles across the border. However, on the Grand Scale of Dire Straits™, living in a locked-down city under siege by the IDF and patrolled by guys who'd love to use me and my family as a human shield for their ammo dumps beats coming under infrequent and inaccurate rocket attack any day.

This isn't advanced mathematics. It's quite obvious to see why Palestinian civilians in Gaza evoke sympathy in most people possessive of a modicum of empathy.

I do feel sympathy, but they elected an organization that regularly engages in war crimes. So, sucks to be them.

They did, which is their mistake to learn from, and you won't see me blaming the Israelis for taking out the trash. Suffice it to say it's a sorry situation.

[Coyote]

In a way, I feel increased sympathy for the Gazans, because Hamas was elected into power based on promises for jobs, education, and welfare-- they were providing that in Gaza more efficiently than the Fatah groups, so desperate people rolled the dice and elected the Hamasniks... and got this.

True, you can say "they shoulda seen it coming, electing terrorists" but at one point, Fatah was the same. The Hamasniks really screwed their own people over, and if there was anything that I wish I could change about the news media vis-a-vis this conflict, it would be to focus more on the responsibility the Hamas leadership has for putting the Palestinians in this situation.

Considering that Fatah is able to deal politically with Israel in the West Bank, and even Hezbollah in Lebanon is able to reach stability of a sorts on the northern border, and Israel did completely withdraw from Gaza all it's Settlements, there's not much excuse for Hamas.

The best thing they could have done was to elect a spokesman to take testament of their suffering in the Gaza Strip under siege and play a big sympathy card in an international political forum. The EU, UN... I'm sure Russia or China would have loved to have brought their case up as a means to poke the US. I think the problem may be mostly in-faction fighting among Hamas groups-- the guy who gets to be the spokesman becomes a "Big Name" in the international community, and none of them will support their rivals.

[Bilbo]

I think the problem may be mostly in-faction fighting among Hamas groups-- the guy who gets to be the spokesman becomes a "Big Name" in the international community, and none of them will support their rivals.

Hamas fired 3000 rockets into Israel in 2008. That is the problem.

[Coyote]

I think the problem may be mostly in-faction fighting among Hamas groups-- the guy who gets to be the spokesman becomes a "Big Name" in the international community, and none of them will support their rivals.

Hamas fired 3000 rockets into Israel in 2008. That is the problem.

Well, I was thinking that the problem was that Hamas didn't ever really want to find a voice and negotiate in good faith to find a peaceful resolution, but, yes, the end result was the firing of an asston of rockets into their neighbor.

Actually, I'm going to say it is far, far more problematic.

On the one side, you've got a lot of Hamas leaders that have oriented their whole lives aorund "the struggle", and they've found a way to profit from it. They get to be Big Men, have street cred, and are civic heroes. What are they going to do if peace is declared? Work at 7-11?

Then, you have Israeli politicians who have organized their entire political careers around security. They get to "be tough with terrorists" and they profit from it. They, too, get to be Big Men and have political cred, and be heroes. What do they have to do when peace is declared? Debate about garbage and bus routes, and cut ribbons at new shopping malls?

"Destroy you? No, I don't want to destroy you... you complete me!"

[MKSheppard]

In a way, I feel increased sympathy for the Gazans, because Hamas was elected into power based on promises for jobs, education, and welfare-- they were providing that in Gaza more efficiently than the Fatah groups, so desperate people rolled the dice and elected the Hamasniks... and got this.

I feel about the same sympathy for Gazans as I do for Germans from 1942-1945, as city after city came under increasingly heavy weights of aerial attack by the RAF.

I certainly do think the IAF should start painting famous quotations from HAMAS and Hizbollah leaders onto their planes; in the same vein as "No Enemy Plane Shall Fly Over The Reich Territory" by Goering got painted onto a Lancaster.

[Uraniun235]

I do feel sympathy, but they elected an organization that regularly engages in war crimes. So, sucks to be them.

Democratic institutions barely work properly in an environment where the majority of voters are informed and at least partially aware of their own biases. Do you seriously think the average Palestinian is sufficiently well-informed and educated as to be able to rationally weigh the merits of Hamas' election promises? There is a point at which democratic institutions cannot be expected to function properly.

[Gandalf]

I do feel sympathy, but they elected an organization that regularly engages in war crimes. So, sucks to be them.

How many war crimes can be committed before it becomes "sucks to be them"?

The Republican party (and perhaps the Democrats) certainly have a war crime or two under their belt. I doubt if a pissed off Iraqi attacked Americans you'd have the same attitude.

[Admiral Valdemar]

It can be argued that 9/11 was justified if going by the eye-for-an-eye approach. Many do already see it as a just desserts for the imperialistic American hegemony. Sure, it's not a proper military attack, but then no Islamic army could do such a strike. But they sure got backing from such governments less than happy with Americana spreading around.

Those not part of the majority dictating policy will always be fucked over, just as in Gaza; just as in Bush's America.

[Big Orange]

Hamas are ruthless enough to have their strategic assets (like their fireworks workshops) obscured within dismal, crowded tenement blocks and I doubt your typical five year old Palestinian girl with shrapnel wedged into her skull has a say on that Hamas tactic that entails the IDF/IAF response. And while there is malicious political intent behind the rocket attacks, are they really doing any genuine damage and oppose a serious strategic threat to anybody who isn't a stray cat? Hamas seem like vindictive dumbfucks who are less militarily and politically cunning than Hezbollah, since they launched their attacks against Israel too soon before Obama gets into office and the coffin lid slams on the Bush Administration.

[Darth Wong]

I do feel sympathy, but they elected an organization that regularly engages in war crimes. So, sucks to be them.

How many war crimes can be committed before it becomes "sucks to be them"?

The Republican party (and perhaps the Democrats) certainly have a war crime or two under their belt. I doubt if a pissed off Iraqi attacked Americans you'd have the same attitude.

Funny how people can say things like this and yet bristle defensively when you rhetorically blast Americans for the sins of the Bush Administration.

How many Americans would think it reasonable to say "sucks to be them" about American soldiers dying in Iraq? People have tried saying things like that on this forum before, and the response was usually to declare it trolling.

[Admiral Valdemar]

That's the point I've heard made often elsewhere too. Vietnam would be another example, since the people voted in the administration that perpetuated such a stupid war. So, in point of fact, they deserved all they got.

[Kanastrous]

Participatory democracy sure gives the appearance of placing responsibility for choice-of-leadership plus attendant consequences, upon the electorate.

[Chris OFarrell]

Well in theory the Government is also supposed to answer to the people in a democracy, anyone think Hamas would ever let THAT happen?

[Master of Ossus]

How many war crimes can be committed before it becomes "sucks to be them"?

The Republican party (and perhaps the Democrats) certainly have a war crime or two under their belt. I doubt if a pissed off Iraqi attacked Americans you'd have the same attitude.

The main difference is that Hamas was elected largely because they were a terrorist organization that visibly fought against Israel at every turn. You could say the same thing about Fatah, originally, but in the most recent elections the main issue was how to handle relations with Israel, and to simplify things Hamas was concerned with fighting them and Fatah wanted to negotiate.

As for the comments that Hamas hasn't made a good faith effort to negotiate: clearly. Hamas is not interested in peace, or at least that's not their primary motivation since they don't want it on terms that people in the West would consider remotely reasonable.

Well in theory the Government is also supposed to answer to the people in a democracy, anyone think Hamas would ever let THAT happen?

Hamas doesn't really view itself as a government, or even as a political party. It got people elected because that supports its non-governmental actions, but fundamentally I think they see themselves as a military organization with the objective of fighting Israel first, with all their other activities (including those in the political arena) supporting that objective. They're not answerable to the populace or the electorate for that reason.

[ray245]

The problem is, people living in Gaza simply don't view peace as beneficial to them. The only way to tell the Palenstians to support the idea of peace, is to ensure they can have peace and see actual benefits from it, other than not getting killed.

Benefits such as a rise of income and standard of living for the people living in Gaza.

[Davis 51]

Thought this was interesting, as I didn't see this posted earlier. Its an editorial by Jimmy Carter, who has been trying recently to facilitate negotiations.

An Unnecessary War: Washington Post Op-Ed

By Jimmy Carter

Jan. 8, 2009

This op-ed was published in the Jan. 8, 2009 issue of The Washington Post.

I know from personal involvement that the devastating invasion of Gaza by Israel could easily have been avoided.

After visiting Sderot last April and seeing the serious psychological damage caused by the rockets that had fallen in that area, my wife, Rosalynn, and I declared their launching from Gaza to be inexcusable and an act of terrorism. Although casualties were rare (three deaths in seven years), the town was traumatized by the unpredictable explosions. About 3,000 residents had moved to other communities, and the streets, playgrounds and shopping centers were almost empty. Mayor Eli Moyal assembled a group of citizens in his office to meet us and complained that the government of Israel was not stopping the rockets, either through diplomacy or military action.

Knowing that we would soon be seeing Hamas leaders from Gaza and also in Damascus, we promised to assess prospects for a cease-fire. From Egyptian intelligence chief Omar Suleiman, who was negotiating between the Israelis and Hamas, we learned that there was a fundamental difference between the two sides. Hamas wanted a comprehensive cease-fire in both the West Bank and Gaza, and the Israelis refused to discuss anything other than Gaza.

We knew that the 1.5 million inhabitants of Gaza were being starved, as the U.N. special rapporteur on the right to food had found that acute malnutrition in Gaza was on the same scale as in the poorest nations in the southern Sahara, with more than half of all Palestinian families eating only one meal a day.

Palestinian leaders from Gaza were noncommittal on all issues, claiming that rockets were the only way to respond to their imprisonment and to dramatize their humanitarian plight. The top Hamas leaders in Damascus, however, agreed to consider a cease-fire in Gaza only, provided Israel would not attack Gaza and would permit normal humanitarian supplies to be delivered to Palestinian citizens.

After extended discussions with those from Gaza, these Hamas leaders also agreed to accept any peace agreement that might be negotiated between the Israelis and Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, who also heads the PLO, provided it was approved by a majority vote of Palestinians in a referendum or by an elected unity government.

Since we were only observers, and not negotiators, we relayed this information to the Egyptians, and they pursued the cease-fire proposal. After about a month, the Egyptians and Hamas informed us that all military action by both sides and all rocket firing would stop on June 19, for a period of six months, and that humanitarian supplies would be restored to the normal level that had existed before Israel's withdrawal in 2005 (about 700 trucks daily).

We were unable to confirm this in Jerusalem because of Israel's unwillingness to admit to any negotiations with Hamas, but rocket firing was soon stopped and there was an increase in supplies of food, water, medicine and fuel. Yet the increase was to an average of about 20 percent of normal levels. And this fragile truce was partially broken on Nov. 4, when Israel launched an attack in Gaza to destroy a defensive tunnel being dug by Hamas inside the wall that encloses Gaza.

On another visit to Syria in mid-December, I made an effort for the impending six-month deadline to be extended. It was clear that the preeminent issue was opening the crossings into Gaza. Representatives from the Carter Center visited Jerusalem, met with Israeli officials and asked if this was possible in exchange for a cessation of rocket fire. The Israeli government informally proposed that 15 percent of normal supplies might be possible if Hamas first stopped all rocket fire for 48 hours. This was unacceptable to Hamas, and hostilities erupted.

After 12 days of "combat," the Israeli Defense Forces reported that more than 1,000 targets were shelled or bombed. During that time, Israel rejected international efforts to obtain a cease-fire, with full support from Washington. Seventeen mosques, the American International School, many private homes and much of the basic infrastructure of the small but heavily populated area have been destroyed. This includes the systems that provide water, electricity and sanitation. Heavy civilian casualties are being reported by courageous medical volunteers from many nations, as the fortunate ones operate on the wounded by light from diesel-powered generators.

The hope is that when further hostilities are no longer productive, Israel, Hamas and the United States will accept another cease-fire, at which time the rockets will again stop and an adequate level of humanitarian supplies will be permitted to the surviving Palestinians, with the publicized agreement monitored by the international community. The next possible step: a permanent and comprehensive peace.

The writer was president from 1977 to 1981. He founded the Carter Center, a nongovernmental organization advancing peace and health worldwide, in 1982.

Bolding mine. This part is interesting to me, because its the first time I've heard such direct numbers from a firsthand source.

[hongi]

when Israel launched an attack in Gaza to destroy a defensive tunnel being dug by Hamas inside the wall that encloses Gaza.

Defensive tunnel? How does he know that?

[CJvR]

Given the Israeli experience with Hizb & Hama "defensive tunnels" that reaction is hardly surprising.

[bobalot]

Hey, dumbass, I lived in the south for over a year and worked with Bedouin. (In legal, illegal and quasi-legal settlements).

The Bedouin engage en mass in building illegal housing and multiple illegal towns, it's not an opinion, it's a fact. (It's the same as you going off to the middle of Yosemite park bulldozing an acre to build a house with permission or permits, bringing in a herd of sheep and your extended family, then ranting about discrimination if your home gets torn down by park rangers after living there for years).
Most of the illegal houses are in fact left alone, due to the media frenzy that starts about the "big bad government tearing down the poor Bedouin's (illegal) homes". It's bloody discrimination in their favour in terms of (lack of) law enforcement.

heir homes are still being demolished by the hundreds to make for "Jew only" housing."
So, where's the bit about Jew only housing? I'd love to see that.
Really, where?

Dude, if you want to white wash your countries shitty treatment of the Bedouin and the dispossession of their land, feel free. Please don't get self righteous, I can smell the bullshit from Australia.

Since you think non-governmental human rights organizations are in some sort of conspiracy to help criminals all over the world avoid zoning laws instead of pointing how shitty a group of people have it. Let us ask why do the Bedouin build shitty shanty towns? Well they have been dispossessed of their land. It's simple historical fact.

As of 1951, the United Nations reported the expulsion of about 7,000 Negev Bedouin into neighbouring Jordan, the Gaza Strip and the Sinai. Many, however, returned undetected.[29] The new government failed to issue the Bedouin identity cards until 1952 and continuously expelled thousands of Bedouin who remained within the new borders.[30] Expulsions continued into the late 1950s, as reported by Haaretz in 1959: "The army's desert patrols would turn up in the midst of a Bedouin encampment day after day, dispersing it with a sudden burst of machine-gun fire until the sons of the desert were broken and, gathering what little was left of their belongings, led their camels in long silent strings into the heart of the Sinai desert."[31] Following the removal of the Bedouin from most of the Negev, the Israeli state erased the traditional Bedouin place names from official maps and actively discouraged their administrative use, replacing them with new Hebrew place names.[32]Explaining this policy in 1949 to the committee he had appointed to devise Hebrew place names for the Negev region, Israeli prime minister David Ben-Gurion wrote, "We are obliged to remove the Arabic names for reasons of state. Just as we do not recognize the Arabs' political proprietorship of the land, so also we do not recognize their spiritual proprietorship and their names."[33]

In the years after the establishment of Israel, the Bedouin almost completely ceased to move around with their herds as a result of State land confiscation.[12] Between 1950 and 1966, the new State of Israel imposed a military administration over Arabs in the region[13] and designated 85% of the Negev "State Land;" all Bedouin habitation on this newly-declared State Land was retroactively termed illegal and "unrecognized."[37] The government then forcibly concentrated these Bedouin tribes into the Siyag (Arabic for 'fence') triangle of Beer Sheva, Arad and Dimona,[38] and the Bedouin came to reside on just over 1% of the Negev.[39]

Here is a nice quote from the first Prime Minister Israel:

In 1937, before being elected as Israel’s first Prime Minister, David Ben-Gurion wrote to his son, “Negev land is reserved for Jewish citizens whenever and wherever they want. We must expel the Arabs and take their place.”[24]

You throw them off their land, and they go around building shanty towns to live in? Who would have fucking thought. It must be fucking rocket science. Only a real shithead of the highest order would complain that they have built this shitty housing all over the place. It's like throwing someone out of their home and then complaining that the cardboard box they live in is breaking local council zoning laws.

I'm assuming that these crappy shanty towns are termed "unrecognized villages" which are illegally built settlements (The irony of Israel complaining about illegal settlements is killing me). The problem is:

Many of these villages were created in the 1950s when the Israeli army resettled Bedouin from the Sinai desert. These villages do not directly appear on commercial Israeli maps, and are denied basic services like water, electricity and schools, despite being located adjacent to regional electrical and water stations.

So you move these guys to shitholes and then when you need the land for development (it is no secret that Israel needs more housing development) you rezone the land and kick these poor arseholes out of the shitholes they live in claiming they are squatters. Jesus fucking christ, that's nasty.

It's not like these guys turned up yesterday, the history of these people traditionally living on these lands goes back for hundreds of years. The French even met them when Napoleon launched his invasion of Egypt before abandoning his men like a twat. They have been living in the region of hundreds of years doing their semi-nomadic shit. You dispossess them of their land and then complain about them building crappy towns to live in because they are poor (Because they have been dispossessed of their land). It takes some real balls to pull that off with a straight face. Hey, it's all legal because the state did the dispossessing and made laws saying it was legal, therefore it makes it all okay and these guys are just squatters with an entitlement attitudeto a land they have been inhabiting for hundreds of years . What arseholes. Just don't have any gratitude at all.

As for being Jew only settlements here is a link from a Israeli Newspaper here

Here's a quote out of the article:

.....the residents of the village have been living there for 51 years. They were transferred to the site in 1956 while under martial law. The land they originally owned was transferred to Kibbutz Shoval, while the Bedouin were leased 3000 dunam of land for agriculture and grazing. ....

A Kibbutz seems Jew only to me, even if it isn't explicit like a sign that says "Jews only apply".