Gaza situation discussion

[Aaron]

Saw video footage of a couple of these things detonating. Looks like some sort of area-effect weapon; you can briefly see what looks like maybe a bus that bursts and looses a cone of glowing projectiles that sure look like they create explosions when they hit the ground. Certainly not flares.

That looks like a star shell.

[Beowulf]

Saw video footage of a couple of these things detonating. Looks like some sort of area-effect weapon; you can briefly see what looks like maybe a bus that bursts and looses a cone of glowing projectiles that sure look like they create explosions when they hit the ground. Certainly not flares.

Discussion on a blog came to the conclusion that they are smoke rounds.

[The Spartan]

I don't think the 30mm cannons on the Apaches fire anything but HE or HEDP. I know that the A-10 can't fire kinetic penetrators because the sabots would get sucked up by the engines. The same probably goes for helicopters.

Actually it does. I'm not sure if they're sabot style slugs or not, but they are DU rounds that are meant to penetrate through KE.

[Bounty]

At least 40 people have been killed in an Israeli air strike on a United Nations-run school in the Gaza Strip, Palestinian medical sources have said.

A number of children were among those who died when the al-Falluj school in the Jabaliya refugee camp took a direct hit, doctors at nearby hospitals said.

People inside had been taking refuge from the Israeli ground offensive.

Earlier, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) warned of a "full-blown humanitarian crisis" in Gaza.

Speaking on the 11th day of the Israeli assault, a senior ICRC official, Pierre Kraehenbuhl, said life in Gaza had become intolerable.

Palestinian medical sources say up to 600 people have been killed since the attacks began, and Mr Kraehenbuhl said much more needed to be done to protect civilians.

At least 70 Palestinians were killed on Tuesday, while four Israeli soldiers were killed by fire from one of their own tanks.

[Kanastrous]

It's kind of tragic that one of the earliest Palestinian experiences with democratic elections installed a government that led them to this.

On the other hand, I guess it's also another illustration as to why you should be careful who you vote for.

[Count Chocula]

The 30mm rounds fired by the A-10 are cartridge rounds, with a full-diameter bullet. Sabots are most often used in tank rounds, often called subcaliber penetrators. Sabot rounds and air intakes don't play well together.

That said, I don't know if the IDF Merkavas use sabot rounds or not. They use the same smoothbore 120mm cannon of the M-1 Abrams, but penetrators would seem less useful than conventional or shot rounds in an urban environment.

[Kanastrous]

There are horrendous 120mm buckshot rounds.

Someone posted video of a test on SDNet, a little while back.

[Admiral Valdemar]

The IDF just fucked up by hitting a school.

[CJvR]

Discussion on a blog came to the conclusion that they are smoke rounds.

Possibly, the IDF have thermal imaging able to see through smoke so a smoky battlefield is to their advantage and the "flairs" are leaving a fair amount of smoke despite traveling quite fast.

Well the IDF also say they were taking fire from the school, and I have no doubt Hamas would take the oppertunity to shoot off a few rounds before diving into their tunnels and let the civies take the return fire.

[[R_H]]

I don't think the 30mm cannons on the Apaches fire anything but HE or HEDP. I know that the A-10 can't fire kinetic penetrators because the sabots would get sucked up by the engines. The same probably goes for helicopters.

Actually it does. I'm not sure if they're sabot style slugs or not, but they are DU rounds that are meant to penetrate through KE.

My bad.

Gaza: 3 soldiers killed, 24 injured in friendly fire incident

Friendly fire in northern Gaza claims lives of three soldiers, leaves one critically injured, three in serious condition; 24 others sustain minor injures

Hanan Greenberg
Published: 01.06.09, 03:22 / Israel News

Cleared for publication: Three IDF soldiers were killed and 24 others were injured, one critically and three seriously on Monday evening, in a friendly fire incident in northern Gaza.

Among the fatalities were two officers and a soldier. Colonel Avi Peled, commander of the Golani Brigade sustained minor injuries in the incident.

One of the soldiers killed in the incident was identified as Corporal Yosef Muadi, 19, of Haifa. He will be laid to rest at 3 pm at the Bircha cemetery.

The injured were triaged and cared for on site before being airlifted to the Chaim Sheba Medical Center at Tel Hashomer, Soroka University Medical Center in Beersheba, Hadassah Ein Kerem Hospital in Jerusalem and the Rabin Medical Center in Petah Tikva. All of the families have been notified.

According to the IDF Spokesman's Unit, the grave incident occurred when a tank, deployed as part of Operation Cast Lead, accidentally fired a live round at an abandoned building in Jabalya, in which Golani forces, who were operating in the area, took cover.

According to available information, shortly after 6 pm, a blast took out part of the building, causing some of its walls to collapse and injuring the entire force.

Earlier Monday, the IDF explored the possibility that the building collapsed due to the detonation of explosives in it – an option which was ruled out as the details of the incident unfolded.
The injured were extracted under the cover of heavy IDF artillery fire and with the assistance of IAF helicopters which dropped illuminating bombs in order light their way.

Colonel Peled reportedly refused to leave the scene despite his injuries, opting to see to the rescue and triage of his troops. He sought medical care only after the last of his troops were evacuated.

Peled's conduct and actions, said an IDF source, show courage and "personified the kind of behavior the IDF expects of its commanders in such times."

Peled, a former Egoz Brigade and Battalion 51 head, assumed command of Golani last summer. Prior to his Golani assignment Peled headed the Gaza Division's southern brigade. It was during that time that Gilad Shalit was kidnapped by Hamas, but a subsequent military inquiry found no fault in Peled's conduct.

Edit

6th soldier killed in Gaza operation

Cleared for publication: Combat Engineering fighter Alexander Mashvitzky dies, four other troops lightly injured as terrorist cell opens fire at IDF force patrolling northern Strip; force fires back, hits gunmen

Hanan Greenberg
Published: 01.06.09, 18:02 / Israel News

The Israel Defense Forces cleared for publication on Tuesday evening that another soldier was killed Tuesday morning and four others were lightly injured in an IDF patrol in northern Gaza. The fallen soldier was identified as Alexander Mashvitzky, 21, of Beersheba.

The soldier's family was notified of his death. This was the fifth soldier killed in the past 24 hours and the sixth dead since the start of the ground operation in Gaza.The incident took place shortly after 10 am. A combined force of Golani and Combat Engineering fighters was patrolling the northern part of Gaza City when a terrorist cell hiding nearby opened fire at them. The force fired back and hit some of the gunmen.

One of the fighters was killed in the incident and four others were injured. The dead soldier was a combatant in an elite unit. His injured comrades were evacuated to the Soroka Medical Center in Beersheba.

Three soldiers – Major Dagan Vertman, Captain Nitai Netanel and Corporal Yousef Maudi – were killed Monday evening and 24 other fighters were injured near Jabalya refugee camp, as a tank shell hit a building housing dozens of fighters.

Captain Jonathan Netanel, 27, was killed in another incident in northern Gaza early Tuesday. An investigation into the incident revealed that one of the walls in the building he was in collapsed, apparently after being hit by a tank shell.

Golani Staff-Sergeant Dvir Emanuelof, 22, was the first fatality of Operation Cast Lead's ground incursion. He was killed early Sunday, several hours after the operation began. Emanuelof was killed as a mortar shell landed near a Golani force in Jabalya.

[Beowulf]

Discussion on a blog came to the conclusion that they are smoke rounds.

Possibly, the IDF have thermal imaging able to see through smoke so a smoky battlefield is to their advantage and the "flairs" are leaving a fair amount of smoke despite traveling quite fast.

Well the IDF also say they were taking fire from the school, and I have no doubt Hamas would take the oppertunity to shoot off a few rounds before diving into their tunnels and let the civies take the return fire.

More specifically, the M825A1 smoke round.

I wouldn't doubt that they were firing from a school. There's a vid on youtube of them firing a mortar from a school.

[[R_H]]

I wouldn't doubt that they were firing from a school. There's a vid on youtube of them firing a mortar from a school.

YNet is reporting that they were indeed firing from the school, and two of the Hamas members that were amongst those there are known to the IDF. Was the military value of the target greater than the civilian deaths that resulted?

[Ender]

Was the school actually in session at the time? The fact that reports indicate fire was coming from the windows as well as the roof makes me doubt it, as do the Palestinian casualty reports - there would be teachers and children in there, but their reports are talking about whole families. Since when do the parents sit in the back of the classroom with the children? Plus the whole "there's a war going on" thing - schools would stay open during this? (last one is an honest question, do they close the schools and such when this happens, or is it so frequent that they keep them open)

[[R_H]]

Was the school actually in session at the time? The fact that reports indicate fire was coming from the windows as well as the roof makes me doubt it, as do the Palestinian casualty reports - there would be teachers and children in there, but their reports are talking about whole families. Since when do the parents sit in the back of the classroom with the children? Plus the whole "there's a war going on" thing - schools would stay open during this? (last one is an honest question, do they close the schools and such when this happens, or is it so frequent that they keep them open)

People were using the school as a shelter.

[CJvR]

People were using the school as a shelter.

And Hamas was apparently using it as a bunker... I doubt the IDF knew more than that they were taking fire from the building. I wonder if our local media will ever say more about the event than "IDF killed 40 children in school".

[Kanastrous]

I'm always mildly puzzled by the let yourselves get shot because the people shooting at you right now chose to do it, from behind a bunch of civilians perspective.

[Ender]

I'm always mildly puzzled by the let yourselves get shot because the people shooting at you right now chose to do it, from behind a bunch of civilians perspective.

It is a lot easier to make that call when you are far far away and not the person being shot at.

[Ender]

Was the school actually in session at the time? The fact that reports indicate fire was coming from the windows as well as the roof makes me doubt it, as do the Palestinian casualty reports - there would be teachers and children in there, but their reports are talking about whole families. Since when do the parents sit in the back of the classroom with the children? Plus the whole "there's a war going on" thing - schools would stay open during this? (last one is an honest question, do they close the schools and such when this happens, or is it so frequent that they keep them open)

People were using the school as a shelter.

This sickens me on a number of levels.

[[R_H]]

Was the school actually in session at the time? The fact that reports indicate fire was coming from the windows as well as the roof makes me doubt it, as do the Palestinian casualty reports - there would be teachers and children in there, but their reports are talking about whole families. Since when do the parents sit in the back of the classroom with the children? Plus the whole "there's a war going on" thing - schools would stay open during this? (last one is an honest question, do they close the schools and such when this happens, or is it so frequent that they keep them open)

People were using the school as a shelter.

This sickens me on a number of levels.

That Hamas was using a school to fire a mortar from, where people were also taking shelter?

[Ender]

People were using the school as a shelter.

This sickens me on a number of levels.

That Hamas was using a school to fire a mortar from, where people were also taking shelter?

That Hamas was firing from an occupied shelter, that they did so to deliberately put civilians in the line of fire, that Israel still hit it, that the people are stuck in the middle of this... like I said, multiple levels.

[Elfdart]

The IDF just fucked up by hitting a school.

Oh please! IDF fanwhores will give them handjob after handjob just the same.

[Sea Skimmer]

Skimmer, they started deploying the IFV (or APC?) version of the Merkava IV. Granted, it doesn't seem to have anything more than a .50 cal gun from the looks of it.

That’s just a successor to the converted Centurtion and T-55 based APCs they already used in great numbers. All of them are armed with remote weapons stations which can take nothing heavier then a .50cal machine gun or a 40mm grenade launcher, though a 7.62mm gun is much more common. If a vehicle does not mount some kind of major caliber cannon it cannot be an IFV. That’s the whole distinction.

Maybe F-15s or F-16s with gun pods? Can their internal guns use DU ammo...?

I know that there were a lot of podded weapons for the F-4, but I don't think there are any F-4s left in the IDF/AF except for some recce models.

All jets now used by the IAF use the same type of 20x102mm ammunition, and almost all of them use the same M61 galting gun. The last F-4s flew in 2004; they still have some A-4 Skyhawks around with the older M39 revolver cannon, but only as trainers.

20x102mm DU ammo exists, but it’s only for the Phalanx CIWS and as it is discarding sabot it cannot be used by aircraft. Anyway, no reason to use such small caliber DU rounds from an aircraft anyway, even if you wanted to strafe tanks such a small caliber just wouldn’t be effective.

Sabot ammunition and DU ammo in particular has no rational use against anything but armored targets, even concrete bunkers are better attacked with explosive projectiles. The IDF has no rational targets for such ammunition in Gaza, if they did they certainly wouldn’t hesitate to fire them, but its just not the case.

[Kanastrous]

I'm always mildly puzzled by the let yourselves get shot because the people shooting at you right now chose to do it, from behind a bunch of civilians perspective.

It is a lot easier to make that call when you are far far away and not the person being shot at.

It seems like a failure of imagination. I'm fortunate enough to not actually be in such a position, but I can at least imagine that if I were being shot at from behind noncombatants, I would be willing to return fire with the knowledge of the probable consequences.

Maybe other people imagine themselves electing to just get shot, instead, rather than return fire. I guess in their imaginations they're more saintly human beings, than I am, in mine.

[CJvR]

An audio message reportedly from al Qaeda's deputy chief vows revenge for Israel's air and ground assault on Gaza and calls the Jewish state's actions against Hamas militants "a gift" from U.S. President-elect Barack Obama.

The speaker, identified as Ayman al-Zawahiri, addresses Muslims in Gaza. He said the violence "is one part of a series of a crusade war against Islam and these air strikes are a gift from Obama before he takes office, and (Egyptian President) Hosni Mubarak, that traitor, is the main partner in your siege and killing."

LOL! Yeah, everyone should know only Al-Q is allowed to butcher Shia heretics!!!
What is it? 3-4 days ago that a Sunni (Al-Q) martyr bomber blew up a Shia Mosque during prayer killing 35 in Bagdad.

Also the UN now disputes the IDF claim that they were shot at from the school they blasted.

[CJvR]

Also the UN now disputes the IDF claim that they were shot at from the school they blasted.
And they may be right, the team could be several inches away like these fellows.