Gaza situation discussion

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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Kanastrous » 2009-01-15 12:13pm

ray245 wrote:People's anger towards Israel will not fade just because someone else is responsible for the Palestinians .


What do you think is stoking people's anger toward Israel, in its present intensity, at this particular moment? Israel will always be in the wrong, Israel will always be something people wish didn't exist, people will always nurture their pet conspiracy theories. But there are certainly things that can be done to moderate that situation.

ray245 wrote:In the short run, a truce may seem meaninglessness, but in the long run, Israel need to capitalize on the truce to undermine the Hamas credibility of creating stability for the Palestinians in the Gaza strip.


So Israel is supposed to declare a truce, permitting HAMAS to be awarded a public-opinion win, *and* permitting normalization and improvement in Gaza under HAMAS' watch, and this impresses you as a move that will undermine HAMAS?

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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Fingolfin_Noldor » 2009-01-15 12:30pm

ray245 wrote:How is Israel going to stop another anti-Israeli party from taking over? As long as a sizable portion of Palenstians is unable to see any tangible benefit, Israel will be experience continued attacks from Gaza.


Because Israel can dictate terms and force any party, however anti-Israel, to comply. Either they stop firing rockets and focus on governing, or die.

In the short run, a truce may seem meaninglessness, but in the long run, Israel need to capitalize on the truce to undermine the Hamas credibility of creating stability for the Palestinians in the Gaza strip.


You are contradicting yourself by putting two oxymoronic issues together. Hamas exists to create trouble for Israel. It is their source of legitimacy. In the long run, Hamas will continue to survive because the truce is meaningless.

People's anger towards Israel will not fade just because someone else is responsible for the Palestinians .

There's plenty of anti-Semitism in the Muslim population there. Who in Israel gives a fuck about it these days? Except when these fools come aknocking?
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Coyote » 2009-01-15 12:54pm

Thanas wrote:To everyone who thought that Europe rebuilt itself - you are only partially correct. Sure, the Marshall Plan was not that huge in comparison to the real reconstruction costs, but it served several important purposes when regarding Germany:

...
- the psychological impact. Together with CARE, it showed that the americans were not enemies of Germany.


In particular, the post-WW2 Marshall Plan is significant primarily when compared to the historical events surrounding the post-WW1 Versailles Treaty.

The consequences of buttraping your conquered foes vs. the consequences of helping them up, putting the war behind you, and moving towards the future, even if the "help up" is mostly symbolic.
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In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Coyote » 2009-01-15 01:25pm

ray245 wrote:Come to think of it, can the Fatah even reassert any form of control over the Gaza strip after the attacks has stopped?


It depends on if they are seen as a legitimate alternative to the post-Hamas power vacuum (assuming there is, indeed, a post-Hamas power vacuum). The thing to bear in mind about the Gaza Strip and the West Bank is that these are two very different societies, and they don't see eye to eye. Fatah was acceptable to West Bankers (which actually used to be Jordanian territory) and Hamas was seen as more legitimate by the Gazans (which used to be Egyptian). Part of it may be left over from the fact that during the "glory days" of Yasser Arafat and his high-visibility "statesmanship", he primarily worked out of the West Bank and surrounded himself with West Bank cadre, whike Gaza was left to just serve as a good example of a bad example of what was happening to Palestinians.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Coyote » 2009-01-15 01:38pm

Mr Bean wrote:*Edit, also when this thread ends I intend to move it into the Famous thread section.


Why? Because an IvP discussion managed to reach over 20 pages without anyone being called fucktard, two or three bannings, a half-dozen titlings, and flushing to HoS? :lol: I have to admit, this is progress! :mrgreen:
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!

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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Broomstick » 2009-01-15 02:01pm

ray245 wrote:
tell Egypt, you have always been great proponents of Pan-Arabism. Here's a golden opportunity to deliver; naturally in the spirit of Pan-Arabism you will care far better and more equitably for Gaza's people, than Israel can or will. Plus, all aid monies will now flow to Cairo for disbursement. Here's a few million dollars to get power and water and roads connected, on your end. Good luck.

People's anger towards Israel will not fade just because someone else is responsible for the Palestinians .

No, but it might keep more Palestinians alive doing it that way.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Coyote » 2009-01-15 03:00pm

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Because Israel can dictate terms and force any party, however anti-Israel, to comply. Either they stop firing rockets and focus on governing, or die.


Although part of the problem may be that Hamas was elected to power, but they don't seem to truly be responsible for anything, since a lot of basic services are carried by the UN. Giving them something to spend budget on, and be answerable to the people for, may be a worthwhile start.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!

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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Siege » 2009-01-15 04:03pm

Coyote wrote:Although part of the problem may be that Hamas was elected to power, but they don't seem to truly be responsible for anything, since a lot of basic services are carried by the UN. Giving them something to spend budget on, and be answerable to the people for, may be a worthwhile start.


Hamas have plenty of stuff they could spend money on, it's just that they elect not to. And as long as Hamas can blame the overall shitty situation on the Strip on Israel and get away with it, they'll not have much of an incentive to change any of that. So the Palestinians have to start holding Hamas responsible instead... But of course it's not exactly easy to do that for the average citizen when Hamas are the guys holding all the guns. Politics and militant wings were never a good combination anywhere, and they're certainly not doing Gaza much good right now.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Beowulf » 2009-01-15 04:18pm

It's possible that the very same humanitarian aid that the UN sends to Gaza is preventing a resolution to this, in the same way that sending food aid to africa is bankrupting farmers there, making them even more dependant on food aid.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby CJvR » 2009-01-15 04:33pm

ray245 wrote:The international backlash against Israel this time is huge.
Is it? Realy?
Appart from the usual suspects holding a few riots in Europe, growling from Venezuela and Bolivia (wow how frigthening!) and the Westbankers cheering for Hamas; rather than Fatah who kept them unbombed (another symptom of the Palestinian talent for picking the wrong side?); what international backlash is there?
Sure Osama is angry that someone is killing more Shia heretics than his murderous Al-Q but appart from that?
No arab nations is willing to do anything and there doesn't seem to be that much internal pressure to act.
Even Iran and Hizb-stan, who are supposed to be Hamas allies, are silent.
Egypt is more likely to shoot at Hamas than Israel.
The Saudis outright said this mess was Hamas own fault IIRC.
Syria, despite it's alliance with Iran, is doing nothing; I have not heard anything about Syria for the last week.
No sanctions from anyone, well not anyone who matters.
Obama is taking the oppertunity to shut up, hoping no doubt that the IDF will spare him from having to have a Hamas policy.
UN is getting bombed, and send a few hostile notes in response; noone cares as long as the butchersbill among the UN staff doesn't grow to big. The UN send hostile notes to Israel on a regular basis so who cares?

The public memory is short, once you stop transmitting exciting combat videos from Gaza we will go back to thinking about the economic meltdown and Iraq and Afghanistan.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Elfdart » 2009-01-15 05:10pm

Beowulf wrote:It's possible that the very same humanitarian aid that the UN sends to Gaza is preventing a resolution to this, in the same way that sending food aid to africa is bankrupting farmers there, making them even more dependant on food aid.


Because there's so much farming to be done in a densely populated ghetto. :roll:
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Kanastrous » 2009-01-15 05:14pm

Satellite imagery shows what appears to be a fair area of cultivated fields in Gaza, although it's impossible to guess how much of Gaza's needs could be met by farming it - even assuming full access to the fields, the necessary equipment, and sufficient water, all of which I'm pretty sure the Gazans don't presently have.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby MKSheppard » 2009-01-15 05:16pm

Mr Bean wrote:So let me just make sure I got this right.
Israel fully cordons off Gaza(Except for the tunnels which they are trying to bomb) and refuses to allow anything but a trickle of supplies into Gaza, basic supplies like food, bandages, fuel for the generators at the Hospitals.


You mean the hundreds of trucks they've let through checkpoints into Gaza? The biggest problem is actually repeated HAMAS etc attacks on the checkpoint via mortaring it; which causes everyone to take cover, and the flow stops.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Beowulf » 2009-01-15 06:17pm

Elfdart wrote:
Beowulf wrote:It's possible that the very same humanitarian aid that the UN sends to Gaza is preventing a resolution to this, in the same way that sending food aid to africa is bankrupting farmers there, making them even more dependant on food aid.


Because there's so much farming to be done in a densely populated ghetto. :roll:


Yup, because the aforementioned greenhouse are used for nothing at all. In any case, the point flew completely over your feeble head. UN aid suppresses the native methods of creating the same service that the UN aid supplies. In so doing, the aid in fact makes things worse, because it makes the population ever more dependent on the aid, and makes it harder for Palestine to become self-sufficient. (Note, by aid, I don't mean food, but stuff like social services).

Hamas is a government that doesn't have any of the responsibilities of a government. So of course they don't act like one.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Mr Bean » 2009-01-15 06:22pm

MKSheppard wrote:
You mean the hundreds of trucks they've let through checkpoints into Gaza? The biggest problem is actually repeated HAMAS etc attacks on the checkpoint via mortaring it; which causes everyone to take cover, and the flow stops.

Not being there on the ground and no media outlet doing basic journalistic things like checking on these things all my statements are based on UN reports on the number of kilos of food per day, with how much is being sent in. Not even heard about mortar attacks on the border crossing and four minutes of googling turned up nothing Shep.

What I did turn up on the checkpoints is this

CNN Jan 12th
CNN On the Spot wrote:Cassandra Nelson is a humanitarian aid worker with Mercy Corps. She spends most of her time deployed in hotspots and hostile areas. She has worked in Iraq, Darfur, Lebanon, South Sudan, Zimbabwe, Liberia, North Korea, Sri Lanka, Banda Aceh, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iran. Here she describes her experiences trying to provide relief in Gaza.

(CNN) -- Thursday morning, January 8, Jerusalem
Mercy Corps workers repack truck in Jerusalem carrying food supplies into Gaza.

Mercy Corps workers repack truck in Jerusalem carrying food supplies into Gaza.
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I arrived in Israel yesterday to work with Mercy Corps, an international aid organization, to assist the Gazans who are suffering from the conflict and over 18 months of harsh blockades that have left their cupboards bare and their banks empty of cash.

All of Gaza is on the verge of collapse: Most people have no electricity, no running water and inadequate food supplies. Fuel is running low. And only a fraction of aid needed to sustain Gaza's 1.5 million residents is getting in.

Getting basic food and medical aid into Gaza from Israel has proved to be extremely frustrating and difficult for aid agencies trying to help the civilians who are literally stranded in a war zone.

The Israeli authorities have refused to allow almost all expatriate aid workers to enter Gaza since November 2008, so we work in Israel, and our national staff who live in Gaza work inside the territory to carry out the projects on the ground. The Israeli authorities have isolated Gaza from the rest of the world -- no people, money or goods can legally enter Gaza from Israel without the approval of the Israeli authorities.

In 2007 an average of 500 trucks a day entered Gaza with food and supplies. In comparison, yesterday, just 36 humanitarian trucks were allowed access to Gaza. With almost the entire population of 1.5 million Gazans dependent on humanitarian assistance, it is obvious that the incoming aid is not even remotely adequate.

We have spent the past 11 days working through Israeli red tape and protocols that seemed to change daily, to secure the permission to deliver food aid. We have a truck filled with rice, cooking oil, canned tuna fish and edible dates that will feed 2,000 people for about a week.

Yesterday the delivery was supposed go through but at 2:00 a.m. we received notice from the Israeli authorities that the delivery was being postponed because it contained edible dates as part of the package.

The dates had been on the packing list for days and were never questioned; not until 2:00 a.m. the morning we are supposed to go to the border. This is just one delay of many that we have been confronted with by the Israeli authorities. There are days when we seriously wonder if our aid will ever get in.

Last night, the truck was repacked, after having removed the offending dates from the package. Once again, we have the permission to go to the border -- let's just hope it stays that way. I am off this morning for the Kerem Shalom border checkpoint with the truck. Fingers crossed.

Friday dawn, January 9

At dawn on Thursday, I fought off my jet lag and drove south to the Gaza border with our Mercy Corps truck filled with desperately needed food aid.

Yesterday the Israeli authorities announced there will be a new daily three-hour cease-fire to allow aid organizations to move throughout Gaza starting today, but we are not very optimistic about it really solving the problems: We're still dealing with the same bureaucratic and twisted approval process for getting aid across the check point and into Gaza.

The temporary three-hour cease-fire is totally insufficient and only applies to aid delivery issues for items that are already inside Gaza. It does not help us get more aid into the territory in any way. We need to have the whole Israeli approval system improved so we can get trucks into Gaza in less than a week.

When we reached the Kerem Shalom border at 9:00 a.m. there was a line of about 25 trucks waiting at the border for entry. After about an hour's wait, the Israeli customs officials inspected the delivery and paperwork and asked several questions about where we bought our supplies.
Don't Miss

* Red Cross demands Gaza access, cites 'shocking' discoveries
* Western governments working to extract their citizens from Gaza
* Gaza, truce crumbles as diplomats eye cease-fire talks
* Gaza hospital crowded with civilians, doctors say

The Mercy Corps vehicle was admitted into the unloading compound with several other aid trucks, all from various U.N. branches. Workers descended on the trucks with forklifts.

After all the items were removed from the truck and placed on the pavement of the compound the security check began. Sniffer dogs were released to check the material. Next an Israeli border worker probed and stabbed every package with a long metal rod to check if anything might be hidden inside. I am assuming they were looking for stowaways among the rice bags, but I can't imagine who would really be trying to get into Gaza when most people there would do anything to escape the constant shelling and bombing.

After the checks were completed all the Israeli workers and other observers and monitors were told to exit back to the Israel side of the border. Once the compound was empty of all people, the gates on the Israeli side were slammed shut.

Next, the gates on the Gaza side of the compound were opened, allowing the Palestinians to enter the compound and collect the delivery with their trucks. No trucks were allowed to drive from the Israeli side to the Gaza side. Everything was offloaded from the trucks on the Israel side and then reloaded onto different trucks on the Gaza side.
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Israeli guards said that at no point in the process are Israelis and Palestinians from the Gaza side allowed to meet each other. I stood at the gate -- on the Israeli side -- and peered through the slats to watch the Palestinians load up our delivery.

I was relieved at the end -- we had finally made the delivery after so much work and our Gaza staff was receiving the items to distribute. But I had a lingering sadness knowing that the Gazans and the Israelis never come face-to-face at this border check. It makes me wonder how peace can be achieved when all humanity seemed to be absent


That does not sound like an unending stream of trucks. Even on the Egyptian side they are being forced to work through Israeli authorities.

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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Knife » 2009-01-15 07:15pm

ray245 wrote:
People's anger towards Israel will not fade just because someone else is responsible for the Palestinians .


Maybe, maybe not. But people tend to do a lot less rebellion when they're too busy creating a nation for themselves. Sure, a lot of Isreali hate will carry through, but when you're too busy building roads, powerplants, schools and hospitals and everyone has a job and something to do, less and less will have extra time to do jihad.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby MKSheppard » 2009-01-15 07:26pm

Mr Bean wrote:Not being there on the ground and no media outlet doing basic journalistic things like checking on these things all my statements are based on UN reports on the number of kilos of food per day, with how much is being sent in. Not even heard about mortar attacks on the border crossing and four minutes of googling turned up nothing Shep.


Wrong.

Link

15 January -- More than 195,000 liters of fuel and 170 humanitarian aid trucks are expected to be transferred to Gaza today. The trucks’ contents include medical equipment and medicines, food and other supplies.

14 January -- 104,000 liters of fuel and 108 trucks transporting humanitarian aid to Gaza passed through the Kerem Shalom Crossing today.

13 January -- Four fuel containers and 102 trucks transporting humanitarian aid to Gaza passed through the Kerem Shalom crossing today, bringing the total of humanitarian aid trucks allowed into the Gaza Strip since the beginning of Operation Cast Lead to 1,028.

---------
Link

Palestinian gunmen in Gaza on Friday afternoon broke the three-hour humanitarian truce, during which Israel let in vital aid to the Strip via the Kerem Shalom border crossing.

While the supplies were being transferred, Gaza gunmen fired several mortar shells at the terminal. No one was wounded.

-----------

I could go on, Bean...but basically the IDF has set up a webcamera somewhere to monitor the corssings at Kerem Shalom.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Kanastrous » 2009-01-15 07:30pm

Shep, you're forgetting Jewish control of the media. That webcam won't show us anything besides what they want us to see.

/sarcasm
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Master of Ossus » 2009-01-15 07:54pm

MKSheppard wrote::lol:
Master of Ossus wrote:Which, again, is why you need to have Hamas stop dicking around with its "All-Palestine-as-Martyrs" operation, first.


That's kind of uh, impossible, without changing HAMAS so much it's not HAMAS anymore


You don't say. As I said, earlier in the thread, Hamas is a military organization whose goal is to fight Israel. It HAPPENED to get people elected, but it's a military organization first and has no interest in pursuing any sort of peaceful agenda.

[snip Hamas charter]


I can't believe you haven't read that, before. A lot of their documents look like that.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Kanastrous » 2009-01-15 08:00pm

They're almost funny, until you remember that a lot of well-armed people take them dead seriously.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby MKSheppard » 2009-01-15 11:59pm

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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Count Chocula » 2009-01-16 12:05am

Where do you find this gold, Shep? Goddamn real time intel of a war zone on a Wars BBS? I'm in awe.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby ray245 » 2009-01-16 12:45am

Coyote wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Because Israel can dictate terms and force any party, however anti-Israel, to comply. Either they stop firing rockets and focus on governing, or die.


Although part of the problem may be that Hamas was elected to power, but they don't seem to truly be responsible for anything, since a lot of basic services are carried by the UN. Giving them something to spend budget on, and be answerable to the people for, may be a worthwhile start.


Bear in mind that the current attacks did tear down a number of public infrastructure.

Unless tearing down their infrastructure and asking them to rebuild it is a valid argument for keeping them occupied and achieve peace.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Fingolfin_Noldor » 2009-01-16 12:53am

ray245 wrote:Bear in mind that the current attacks did tear down a number of public infrastructure.

Unless tearing down their infrastructure and asking them to rebuild it is a valid argument for keeping them occupied and achieve peace.


So? Hamas hasn't so much as governed, beyond training fighters. Those "public infrastructure" have been for the most part used to train more fighters, smuggle weapons, store weapons and what fuck. Then they start rushing into buildings used by aid workers and start firing shells, rockets, mortars and the lot. Let's not even talk about that Hamas television channel that teaches young children to kill jews.

Have you bothered to read the papers at all? Or are you just inserting witty statements?
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Re: Gaza situation discussion

Postby Master of Ossus » 2009-01-16 12:59am

Knife wrote:Maybe, maybe not. But people tend to do a lot less rebellion when they're too busy creating a nation for themselves. Sure, a lot of Isreali hate will carry through, but when you're too busy building roads, powerplants, schools and hospitals and everyone has a job and something to do, less and less will have extra time to do jihad.


That may be putting the cart before the horse. People who aren't rebelling (or living in the middle of a warzone) tend to build a lot more roads, powerplants, schools and hospitals, and tend to have higher employment rates.
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