Does McCain already have the Election won?

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Invictus ChiKen
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Post by Invictus ChiKen » 2008-09-10 04:48pm

A simple question. Chewie's reasons for supporting McCain are the reasons I am supporting Obama. As a result I will never be able to take the sacraments the Catholic Church offers and in supporting him I can no longer be Catholic.

I believe Obama will be a better President than McCain.
He has similar moral values to me, and I believe he will make more moral choices that I agree with than McCain would.
I believe he has a good head on his shoulders, and the experience to know when he's wrong.
I think he'll work with whoever will help him to get things done, regardless of party or pride, and I think he'll try to improve America in the ways that I personally feel are best.

Does this also make me an idiot like Chewie?
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Post by General Zod » 2008-09-10 04:51pm

Invictus ChiKen wrote:
Does this also make me an idiot like Chewie?
Arriving at an intelligent conclusion for retarded reasoning is not unheard of.
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Post by Big Phil » 2008-09-10 04:59pm

Invictus ChiKen wrote:A simple question. Chewie's reasons for supporting McCain are the reasons I am supporting Obama. As a result I will never be able to take the sacraments the Catholic Church offers and in supporting him I can no longer be Catholic.

I believe Obama will be a better President than McCain.
He has similar moral values to me, and I believe he will make more moral choices that I agree with than McCain would.
I believe he has a good head on his shoulders, and the experience to know when he's wrong.
I think he'll work with whoever will help him to get things done, regardless of party or pride, and I think he'll try to improve America in the ways that I personally feel are best.

Does this also make me an idiot like Chewie?
Yes
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Post by Adrian Laguna » 2008-09-10 05:44pm

Superman wrote:I really think that that most Christian right wingers would even elect someone like Adolf Hitler if he happened to be the one current anti-choice candidate.
Christian right wingers overwhelmingly voted for Hitler in the '33 election...

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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-09-10 05:45pm

Knife wrote:Meh, I could understand if he, for example, said he was a fiscal conservative and thus wanted to vote for the fiscal conservative candidate. But I don't see how you can look at McCain and say he was a fiscal conservative, nor any of the current crop of Republicans.

Or perhaps a social conservative, though McCain pretty much spat in the face of that many times over, which is why he has Palin now, to pretty up that side of the base. But then, a social conservative would have to look at all the issues they have and didn't get addressed with a republican president and for most of Bush's term, a republican congress. What do they think McCain and Palin will actually be able to do for them?
They will "cut through the corruption and get things done". Didn't you see when Chewie explained that?
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Post by Invictus ChiKen » 2008-09-10 06:10pm

Adrian Laguna wrote: Christian right wingers overwhelmingly voted for Hitler in the '33 election...
An Atheist left wingers support Stalin and Lenin in there revolutions. What's your point? There's not cases at the far ends of both sides.
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Post by Superman » 2008-09-10 06:12pm

Invictus ChiKen wrote:An Atheist left wingers support Stalin and Lenin in there revolutions. What's your point? There's not cases at the far ends of both sides.
That's not really true. Atheism has no creeds, dogmas, etc., which tell its members to do what those dictators did. You think their lack of belief was responsible for the atrocities they committed?
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Post by SirNitram » 2008-09-10 06:15pm

I'm just wondering how anyone as hot-tempered and prone to going off half-cocked and looking like a moron afterwards can be said to 'Have a good head on his shoulders'. The man was shouting the need to confront the Russian Empire a few weeks back.
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Post by Invictus ChiKen » 2008-09-10 06:18pm

Superman wrote: That's not really true. Atheism has no creeds, dogmas, etc., which tell its members to do what those dictators did. You think their lack of belief was responsible for the atrocities they committed?
No more than Christian creeds had an influence on Hitler getting in. I'm just saying Stalin and Lenin seemed to have a massive support base in the left. My point being there are murderous radicals on all sides.
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Post by Ghost Rider » 2008-09-10 06:20pm

SirNitram wrote:I'm just wondering how anyone as hot-tempered and prone to going off half-cocked and looking like a moron afterwards can be said to 'Have a good head on his shoulders'. The man was shouting the need to confront the Russian Empire a few weeks back.
If you only watch TV ads, it's how he appears...kinda.

On the whole the sad part is Chewie is parroting what I see some of the hardcore Republicans I know do, and in that respect it's sad and funny. Give vague answers and allusions because McCain hasn't given anything concrete. That and he's the party representative. In the end why should McCain give anything concrete? His record speaks pretty clearly what he wants to do and what he will likely do.
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Post by General Zod » 2008-09-10 06:23pm

Invictus ChiKen wrote:No more than Christian creeds had an influence on Hitler getting in. I'm just saying Stalin and Lenin seemed to have a massive support base in the left. My point being there are murderous radicals on all sides.
Stop being a retard please. There is no atheist policy that says "people who don't believe what we do must be slain", the same cannot be said of Christianity. If you want to say that they have a lot of leftist support, fine. But don't try and pretend that atheism is remotely comparable to Christian dogma.
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Post by Superman » 2008-09-10 06:27pm

Invictus ChiKen wrote:
Superman wrote:No more than Christian creeds had an influence on Hitler getting in. I'm just saying Stalin and Lenin seemed to have a massive support base in the left. My point being there are murderous radicals on all sides.
So it wasn't the church which ordered the crusades and Spanish Inquisition? Hell, just read the damn Bible if you don't think Christians are ORDERED by god to be intolerant, spiteful, abusive, and even warmongering fucks.

Atheism is a LACK of belief. It's fallacious to claim that Stalin or Lenin's lack of belief is responsible for the atrocities they committed. Atheism and communism aren't one in the same.
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Post by Invictus ChiKen » 2008-09-10 06:59pm

General Zod wrote:Stop being a retard please. There is no atheist policy that says "people who don't believe what we do must be slain", the same cannot be said of Christianity. If you want to say that they have a lot of leftist support, fine. But don't try and pretend that atheism is remotely comparable to Christian dogma.
Never said there was. My own is and let me try to make this clear.

You cannot attack Christianity because some supported Hitler. No more than I can attack Atheism over Communism.

So it seems we have invoked Godwin's Law...

We should add a new one that states in a debate over Atheism someone will eventually bring up Communism.
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Post by Surlethe » 2008-09-10 07:10pm

Invictus ChiKen wrote:
General Zod wrote:Stop being a retard please. There is no atheist policy that says "people who don't believe what we do must be slain", the same cannot be said of Christianity. If you want to say that they have a lot of leftist support, fine. But don't try and pretend that atheism is remotely comparable to Christian dogma.
Never said there was. My own is and let me try to make this clear.

You cannot attack Christianity because some supported Hitler. No more than I can attack Atheism over Communism.
The difference between Christianity & Hitler and atheism & Communism is that the former has a causative link, while the latter does not -- namely, anti-Semitism and Hitler's religious beliefs.
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Post by Invictus ChiKen » 2008-09-10 07:13pm

Surlethe wrote: The difference between Christianity & Hitler and atheism & Communism is that the former has a causative link, while the latter does not -- namely, anti-Semitism and Hitler's religious beliefs.
Conceded. What would you call the Atheist Communist link? An I'm being serious about this. Would you consider it coincidence, frustration or other?
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Post by Superman » 2008-09-10 07:14pm

Invictus ChiKen wrote:..We should add a new one that states in a debate over Atheism someone will eventually bring up Communism.
Chicken, you brought up Stalin and Lenin when you claimed that their atheism motivated them to do what they did. Atheism has no creeds or beliefs; it's the exact opposite. Atheism was not the motive for the evildoings by Stalin and Mussolini. Many fascists and communists are also Christians, by the way. It's not hard to see, though, that the atrocities by Christians were normally a direct result of their interpretation of the bible... and they made no secret of it.
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Post by General Zod » 2008-09-10 07:29pm

Invictus ChiKen wrote: You cannot attack Christianity because some supported Hitler. No more than I can attack Atheism over Communism.
What part of "atheism is not a moral code" are you failing to comprehend you illiterate twat? I'm also failing to see why we can't attack Christianity when Hitler made extensive use of Christian propaganda to justify his bullshit in Mein Kampf
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Post by Superman » 2008-09-10 07:33pm

Invictus ChiKen wrote:Conceded. What would you call the Atheist Communist link? An I'm being serious about this. Would you consider it coincidence, frustration or other?
Communist nations, like the former Soviet Union or Mao Zedong's China, adhered to Marxism. I'm sure you've heard of the Communist Manifesto; Carl Marx was the guy who said "religion is the opiate of the masses." State atheism was largely based from his writings.

Mao and Stalin, by the way, never claimed to commit any of the atrocities they committed in the name of atheism.
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Post by Stark » 2008-09-10 07:34pm

Invictus ChiKen wrote: Conceded. What would you call the Atheist Communist link? An I'm being serious about this. Would you consider it coincidence, frustration or other?
You're a fucking moron.

From a Marxist perspective, the proscribed atheism of these cultures was driven by the massive corruption of the church and the utility of the church as a) a massive conservative power-bloc and b) a massive capitalist/owner of land and c) the 'opiate of the masses', which controls the poor working class with spurious promises. Your laughably ignorant and simple-minded 'lol coincidence, frustration, other' garbage indicates you have no fucking idea what you're talkign about and no idea about the cultural and social changes around the end of the 19th and start of the 20th century.

It's worth noting that many of the social functions of relgion were taken over by the party in a way Marx probably wouldn't have liked; the 'revolution' took the place of creed, they persecuted 'heretics' and gave precedence to their 'holy men' while attempting to 'convert' others. This isn't a part of atheism (which you seem to barely understand, if at all), it's a part of the failure of communism itself.

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Post by Invictus ChiKen » 2008-09-10 07:35pm

General Zod wrote:What part of "atheism is not a moral code" are you failing to comprehend you illiterate twat? I'm also failing to see why we can't attack Christianity when Hitler made extensive use of Christian propaganda to justify his bullshit in Mein Kampf
He also used Norse Paganism and even elements of the Jewish Kabahala to forge a religion based around him. But I see your ignoring that part.

An if Atheism has no creed or code. Why is it held as being morally superior?

Please do correct me if I am wrong but to be morally superior do you not need a superior moral code first?
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Post by Stark » 2008-09-10 07:38pm

Are you really so fucking stupid you're going to claim that because some of his dudes were down with the Wotan, that the Nazi program wasn't a) largely motivated by the Bible itself and b) supported by the catholic church?

Can we get a split on the 'lol I'm an idiot who doesn't understand culture' stuff? It's nothing to do with the election at all anymore.

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Post by Terralthra » 2008-09-10 07:38pm

Invictus ChiKen wrote:
General Zod wrote:What part of "atheism is not a moral code" are you failing to comprehend you illiterate twat? I'm also failing to see why we can't attack Christianity when Hitler made extensive use of Christian propaganda to justify his bullshit in Mein Kampf
He also used Norse Paganism and even elements of the Jewish Kabahala to forge a religion based around him. But I see your ignoring that part.
Source.
Invictus ChiKen wrote:An if Atheism has no creed or code. Why is it held as being morally superior?

Please do correct me if I am wrong but to be morally superior do you not need a superior moral code first?
At a guess, it's because atheism allows one to have a number of different moral codes, all of which are superior to a moral code derived from "because the sky pixie told me not to."

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Post by Superman » 2008-09-10 07:40pm

Invictus ChiKen wrote:He also used Norse Paganism and even elements of the Jewish Kabahala to forge a religion based around him. But I see your ignoring that part.
What does this have to do with anything?
An if Atheism has no creed or code. Why is it held as being morally superior?
Who gave you this idea? Since when is the idea of morality connected to atheism?
Please do correct me if I am wrong but to be morally superior do you not need a superior moral code first?
What moral code???!!! Why do you don't need to believe in an invisible man in the sky to be a good person???
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Post by Superman » 2008-09-10 07:42pm

Maybe you should define what your idea of "morality? is...
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Post by General Zod » 2008-09-10 07:42pm

Invictus ChiKen wrote:He also used Norse Paganism and even elements of the Jewish Kabahala to forge a religion based around him. But I see your ignoring that part.
Way to completely miss the fucking point dipshit.
An if Atheism has no creed or code. Why is it held as being morally superior?
Who the fuck is holding it as a moral position? The fact that you can't seem to separate the concept of belief/lack of belief from morality is hilarious. Yes, there are secular moral structures that do not require magic sky pixies and are atheistic as a default, but this does not mean atheism is suddenly a moral system in and of itself.
Please do correct me if I am wrong but to be morally superior do you not need a superior moral code first?
See above.
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