Does McCain already have the Election won?

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Postby D.Turtle » 2008-09-16 12:54pm

Dominus Atheos wrote:Well I know that, and you know that, and nearly every member of this board would probably get that, but the Obama campaign has shown very clearly that it doesn't get that by refusing to mention any of them in the name of running a "clean campaign", which is why I'm willing to wait till 2012 for a real candidate who will put Republicans in their place. (not Hillary)

You are an ignorant idiot. Obama might not be fighting dirty like McCain, but he is fighting and attacking John McCain.

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Postby 18-Till-I-Die » 2008-09-16 01:58pm

Personally, i said this way back during the 04 campaign, i want my politicians to fight like rabid dogs.

No holds barred, no rules, no morals. This is, perhaps, the most important election in our lifetimes. America is on the fucking brink. The economy is in a tailspin, several large banks are about to catch fire and explode, A-Stan and Iraq are in the shitter, gas costs more than uncut diamonds...this is not the time to have unflappable morals, this is the time for Liberals to act like they fucking WANT IT MORE.

Fuck this "clean campaign" noise, we NEED Barack Obama. We CAN NOT risk McCain getting in office or, Christ help us, Palin. Fuck i'd rather have Bush in office again than Palin, that's how little faith i have in her intelligence. We must win, must, no other choice. It's time to Sweept the Leg, like Cobra Kai.



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Not this.
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Postby General Zod » 2008-09-16 02:01pm

18-Till-I-Die wrote:Personally, i said this way back during the 04 campaign, i want my politicians to fight like rabid dogs.

No holds barred, no rules, no morals. This is, perhaps, the most important election in our lifetimes. America is on the fucking brink. The economy is in a tailspin, several large banks are about to catch fire and explode, A-Stan and Iraq are in the shitter, gas costs more than uncut diamonds...this is not the time to have unflappable morals, this is the time for Liberals to act like they fucking WANT IT MORE.

Fuck this "clean campaign" noise, we NEED Barack Obama. We CAN NOT risk McCain getting in office or, Christ help us, Palin. Fuck i'd rather have Bush in office again than Palin, that's how little faith i have in her intelligence. We must win, must, no other choice. It's time to Sweept the Leg, like Cobra Kai.


If someone can't be ethical on the campaign trail what the fuck makes you think they'd be ethical in office?
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Postby CaptainChewbacca » 2008-09-16 02:01pm

Uh... Iraq's actually doing pretty good for the last few months. How are you perceiving it as 'in the shitter'?
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Postby Anguirus » 2008-09-16 02:05pm

Cause any place where you need a significant fraction of a superpower's military to keep order is in the fucking shitter.
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Postby Alyrium Denryle » 2008-09-16 03:00pm

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I will be persecuted because I am gay, and she will appoint judges across the federal system who will gut my civil rights.


My appologies, I didn't know your orientation. The only person here who I keep track of is Ein because, well, he's Ein. I thought you were saying you'd be persecuted for your research.


You... dont remember? We have had this conversation several times...
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Postby CaptainChewbacca » 2008-09-16 03:09pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:
I will be persecuted because I am gay, and she will appoint judges across the federal system who will gut my civil rights.


My appologies, I didn't know your orientation. The only person here who I keep track of is Ein because, well, he's Ein. I thought you were saying you'd be persecuted for your research.


You... dont remember? We have had this conversation several times...


I remember now. It was a long day yesterday. My appologies.
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Postby Tribun » 2008-09-16 03:13pm

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html

Very interesting.
Look like McFries and Barracuda start to lose ground...

Maybe there still is hope.

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Postby 18-Till-I-Die » 2008-09-16 04:06pm

We definitely have hope.

Obama is still relatively solid in the Electoral Votes, according to both Electoral-vote.com and Pollster.com, but they give different numbers.

What i REALLY want is for him to eek by on the Electoral Vote just like Bush the Leser did in the first election, because...well because i like my victories to be as ironic for me as they are devastating for my enemies.
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Postby CaptainChewbacca » 2008-09-16 04:17pm

18-Till-I-Die wrote:We definitely have hope.

Obama is still relatively solid in the Electoral Votes, according to both Electoral-vote.com and Pollster.com, but they give different numbers.

What i REALLY want is for him to eek by on the Electoral Vote just like Bush the Leser did in the first election, because...well because i like my victories to be as ironic for me as they are devastating for my enemies.


I don't think I'll be nearly as devastated by an Obama victory as you would be by a McCain victory. Not entirely sure what that says about me, but I think the majority of the country will learn to 'live with it' no matter who wins.
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Postby D.Turtle » 2008-09-16 05:01pm

18-Till-I-Die wrote:Short version:

Liberals need this.

Not this.

Right, because there is nothing in between those extremes ...

Tribun wrote:http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html

Very interesting.
Look like McFries and Barracuda start to lose ground...

Maybe there still is hope.

Yeah, McCains convention bounce is ending.

Oh, and this just in:
Democrats Sue Michigan G.O.P. on Voter Issue wrote:
Updated Responding to allegations that Republican Party officials in Macomb County, Michigan plan to use home foreclosure lists to challenge voters at the polls in November, the Obama Campaign and the Democratic National Committee filed a lawsuit on Tuesday in federal court to prevent what they contended was an illegal practice.

Obama Campaign General Counsel Bob Bauer said that using home foreclosure lists as a basis for challenging voter eligibility would have a “deadly effect of the voting process” and argued that the practice would be illegal.

“This is a standard operating procedure within the Republican party that’s been under legal challenge,” Mr. Bauer said on a conference call with reporters on Tuesday.

Last week the chairman of the G.O.P. in Macomb County, James Carabelli, was quoted in the online publican, the Michigan Messenger, as saying that the party planned to use foreclosure lists to stop voters who no longer have valid addresses from casting their ballots.

“We will have a list of foreclosed homes and will make sure people aren’t voting from those addresses,” Mr. Carabelli said, according to a Sept. 10 article in the Michigan Messenger.

Since the story first appeared, Mr. Carabelli has repeatedly denied that the party planned to use the lists, and in an interview with The New York Times suggested that he was misquoted.

“I have no voter challenging program here in my county,” Mr. Carabelli said late last week.

And in a statement on the Michigan G.O.P. Web site the chairman of the Michigan Republican Party Saul Anuzis called the story “a complete fabrication.”

“There has never been a plan to use foreclosure lists to challenge voters. There is no such plan, and there never will be such a plan. Period,” Mr. Anuzis said.

But the Obama campaign said the denials amounted to “backpedaling” on the part of the Michigan G.O.P., and said that they had enough evidence to go forward with the lawsuit.

“Our position is very simply, they can tell it to the judge,” Mr. Bauer said.

A copy the Obama campaign’s complaint, which was filed on Tuesday in United States District Court in Eastern Michigan, is available here (pdf).

Wow, an intermediate between Rovian dirty tricks and care-bear "let yourself be fucked" impassivity.

You have a really amazing politician, and some of you want him to regress to another dirty politician doing anything to win. You should appreciate more what you have with Obama and just trust him a bit. He knows what's at stake.

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Postby Dominus Atheos » 2008-09-16 07:15pm

D.Turtle wrote:
Dominus Atheos wrote:Well I know that, and you know that, and nearly every member of this board would probably get that, but the Obama campaign has shown very clearly that it doesn't get that by refusing to mention any of them in the name of running a "clean campaign", which is why I'm willing to wait till 2012 for a real candidate who will put Republicans in their place. (not Hillary)

You are an ignorant idiot. Obama might not be fighting dirty like McCain, but he is fighting and attacking John McCain.


So? Is that all he's got, Lobbyists and voting with Bush 90% of the time? Those aren't bad, and the "fundamentals of our economy" ones were decent, but those aren't going to win the election. This one and this one were good, but he's got way better ammo that he's refusing to touch. I was hoping that he was just holding it in reserve, but after all his talk of running a clean campaign I'm starting to think he's never going to mention them.

This is a fantastic political ad. Those video clips showing how he's completely changed changed his position on so many issues just in time for the 2008 primary would sway a lot of voters. But I haven't heard anything out of the Obama campaign like that. And they seem to be backing off of Sarah Palin altogether. An ad about how she was claiming to be the commander in chief of the Alaskan national guard despite that fact that the real commander of it was saying she didn't fall anywhere in the chain of command would be great, but not nearly as great as pointing out that said commander got a promotion a few days after he stopped saying it. At this point, I really am starting to think Barrack Obama cares more about being able to say he ran a clean campaign then actually winning.

Also, I'm disappointed in this one.
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Postby Lusankya » 2008-09-16 08:46pm

SancheztheWhaler wrote:
Lusankya wrote:You seem to be under some misguided delusion that just because something is inevitable in some form or another that therefore it is desirable.


Saying that dirty politics won't go anywhere is not the same as believing dirty politics to be desirable. To use an analogy, you're arguing that because I believe men will continue to rape women (and vice-versa), I'm in favor of rape. :roll:


Oh, sorry. I was under the impression that you were arguing in favour of DA's retarded "vote Republican until the Democrats engage in dirty politics" plan.
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Postby SirNitram » 2008-09-16 10:55pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Uh... Iraq's actually doing pretty good for the last few months. How are you perceiving it as 'in the shitter'?


The fact the Anbar Awakening has begun to fail because all those people who joined the national push for peace and the assistance against Al-Qeada are now being arrested by the Shi'ite government, in direct violation of the whole damn point of the thing.

Oh. And regular bombings. Cholera outbreaks. Lack of water. Lack of electricity. Shall I go on..?
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Postby SirNitram » 2008-09-16 10:56pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:
18-Till-I-Die wrote:We definitely have hope.

Obama is still relatively solid in the Electoral Votes, according to both Electoral-vote.com and Pollster.com, but they give different numbers.

What i REALLY want is for him to eek by on the Electoral Vote just like Bush the Leser did in the first election, because...well because i like my victories to be as ironic for me as they are devastating for my enemies.


I don't think I'll be nearly as devastated by an Obama victory as you would be by a McCain victory. Not entirely sure what that says about me, but I think the majority of the country will learn to 'live with it' no matter who wins.


Unless they have what insurance companies call a 'Pre-Existing condition', in which case they will instead learn to die under it.
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Postby Big Phil » 2008-09-16 10:59pm

Lusankya wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote:
Lusankya wrote:You seem to be under some misguided delusion that just because something is inevitable in some form or another that therefore it is desirable.


Saying that dirty politics won't go anywhere is not the same as believing dirty politics to be desirable. To use an analogy, you're arguing that because I believe men will continue to rape women (and vice-versa), I'm in favor of rape. :roll:


Oh, sorry. I was under the impression that you were arguing in favour of DA's retarded "vote Republican until the Democrats engage in dirty politics" plan.


No, we're pretty much in agreement that DA is a moron who should be culled from the herd before he does any more damage.
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Postby Stormbringer » 2008-09-16 11:22pm

Tribun wrote:http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html

Very interesting.
Look like McFries and Barracuda start to lose ground...

Maybe there still is hope.


Jeez. How is it people can cheer lead Obama relentlessly and give up at the slightest difficulty?

McCain got a convention bounce. Palin brought some literal and figurative sex appeal to McCain's campaign but now that the hoopla is over the factor driving Obama's success are still going strong. People aren't suddenly going to forget the economy is a mess, we're stuck in a messy foreign war, and that the Republicans have been the one's responsible for that. His success was a very temporary thing and he doesn't have the political skill to make it stick.

18-Till-I-Die wrote:What i REALLY want is for him to eek by on the Electoral Vote just like Bush the Leser did in the first election, because...well because i like my victories to be as ironic for me as they are devastating for my enemies.


Which would be great except that it would taint Obama's victory entirely to have a repeat of such a thing and probably make it all but impossible for him to govern. Are you really that retardedly partisan that'd you'd rather have a political train wreck instead of a chance of fixing this mess? What am I saying, of course you are.

Your wonderful partisan retardation is exactly the problem. Maybe if people didn't treat politics like some retarded bloodsport we wouldn't be in this position.
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Postby General Zod » 2008-09-16 11:43pm

Stormbringer wrote:Jeez. How is it people can cheer lead Obama relentlessly and give up at the slightest difficulty?


I'm thinking it's because people set themselves up for disappointment by setting unrealistic expectations on their preferred candidate. Then when something doesn't go perfectly smooth they feel like they were swindled when in reality they were just stupid for hoping for things that can't realistically happen within such a short time frame, and refuse to admit it.
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Postby CaptJodan » 2008-09-17 12:22am

Stormbringer wrote:Jeez. How is it people can cheer lead Obama relentlessly and give up at the slightest difficulty?


A lot riding on the outcome? I'm doing fairly well to keep a balanced non-defeatist attitude thus far at these sways, but even I'm demoralized by just how close it is so far. At the beginning of the campaign I expected McCain to stay in maybe a 30% range for support (with a bounce that might briefly put him within 5 or so points of Obama), about what you might expect from Bush. The fact that it's even remotely close (popular vote wise) is an honestly sad statement, when I truly believed that a half-blind retarded monkey could see which was the better choice.

What counts is the final tally in November, and I am still very much hopeful that people will see through the BS. I just never thought it would stay this close for so long. And it doesn't help that there are honestly people that think like DA out there. Someone forgot to bring their logic and morality to the board.
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Postby Dominus Atheos » 2008-09-17 12:47am

CaptJodan wrote:What counts is the final tally in November, and I am still very much hopeful that people will see through the BS. I just never thought it would stay this close for so long. And it doesn't help that there are honestly people that think like DA out there. Someone forgot to bring their logic and morality to the board.


What's the problem? Obama clearly doesn't want to win, or if he does it's a distant second, so why should I vote for him?
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Postby Patrick Degan » 2008-09-17 12:48am

Dominus Atheos wrote:
CaptJodan wrote:What counts is the final tally in November, and I am still very much hopeful that people will see through the BS. I just never thought it would stay this close for so long. And it doesn't help that there are honestly people that think like DA out there. Someone forgot to bring their logic and morality to the board.


What's the problem? Obama clearly doesn't want to win, or if he does it's a distant second, so why should I vote for him?


Excuse me, but how do you derive that conclusion? Because his campaign is not being waged at the level of your personal satisfaction? And how does that justify either voting for the Gimp or not casting a vote at all?
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Postby Alyrium Denryle » 2008-09-17 12:58am

Dominus Atheos wrote:
CaptJodan wrote:What counts is the final tally in November, and I am still very much hopeful that people will see through the BS. I just never thought it would stay this close for so long. And it doesn't help that there are honestly people that think like DA out there. Someone forgot to bring their logic and morality to the board.


What's the problem? Obama clearly doesn't want to win, or if he does it's a distant second, so why should I vote for him?


First off, you are a fucking idiot.

You should vote for Obama because the alternative is to horrible to imagine
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Postby Kamakazie Sith » 2008-09-17 01:09am

Dominus Atheos wrote:
CaptJodan wrote:What counts is the final tally in November, and I am still very much hopeful that people will see through the BS. I just never thought it would stay this close for so long. And it doesn't help that there are honestly people that think like DA out there. Someone forgot to bring their logic and morality to the board.


What's the problem? Obama clearly doesn't want to win, or if he does it's a distant second, so why should I vote for him?


Why do you think that? Because he isn't running his campaign against McCain the way you think he should?
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Postby Darth Wong » 2008-09-17 01:14am

Is Dominus Atheos trolling? I find it hard to believe that someone who vehemently opposes McCain's policies could possibly want to help him get into power. His bizarre plan to give McCain four years to fuck up the country in the hopes of "killing conservatism" (as if that's any more likely than defeating terror) strikes me as either profound lunacy or a fucking troll.
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Postby Dominus Atheos » 2008-09-17 01:25am

Patrick Degan wrote:
Dominus Atheos wrote:
CaptJodan wrote:What counts is the final tally in November, and I am still very much hopeful that people will see through the BS. I just never thought it would stay this close for so long. And it doesn't help that there are honestly people that think like DA out there. Someone forgot to bring their logic and morality to the board.


What's the problem? Obama clearly doesn't want to win, or if he does it's a distant second, so why should I vote for him?


Excuse me, but how do you derive that conclusion? Because his campaign is not being waged at the level of your personal satisfaction?


I've gone over the problems I have with his campaigning several times. Go read the thread.

And how does that justify either voting for the Gimp or not casting a vote at all?


IMO, in the long run a McCain presidency will be better for the country then an Obama presidency. The democrats have learned a lot of lessons from Kerry's clusterfuck of a campaign in 2004, but not the right ones. Here's my prediction of what would happen after a McCain victory:

  • I think if someone who a lot of liberals (myself included up until just recently) look to as their savior loses, especially narrowly, then they will finally learn what sort of tactics it takes to win an election, and nominate someone in 2012 who is willing to do them.
  • I think if someone who is willing to go after McCain on the issues I've listed previously in the thread, they would probably win by 10% or more.
  • I think that if after Kerry's and Obama's loss, someone is elected by that kind of margin the Democratic party will finally get it through their thick skulls that the key to beating the republicans isn't to compromise with them (that is, roll over on every issue), but to attack them.
  • I think that if democrats start attacking republicans on all their reprehensible, heinous and flagrant shit that they pull, it isn't going to fly nearly as well as it has been.
  • I think that if their reprehensible, heinous and flagrant shit doesn't fly anymore, then we stand a real chance of fixing this country, and this planet.
  • I don't think any of the stuff I just said is going to happen if Obama wins.


Obviously there's no guarantee any of that will definitely happen if Obama loses, but I think that there is enough of a chance that it is worth it to support McCain in 2008.
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