Posted: 2008-01-11 02:47pm
Satan seems able to leave hell (Read: The New Testament) so the barrier isn't impermeable.
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Why would anyone in his right mind worship something that condemned him to eternal torture just for being alive? Yes, most atheists would start believing in God if the evidence was there, but believing in the existence of something and worshipping it are two different things. If anything I'd expect this scenario to see large deconversions of religious people, because they now know worshipping God won't do anything for them anymore (though I expect large numbers would still adopt some variant of sticking their heads in the sand and going "it isn't true, it isn't true.").brianeyci wrote:I believe the question of the op is whether athiests would start worshipping God. If incontrivertiable proof of God existed, athiests could convert in large numbers.
It was said that the machine gun took the romance out of combat. Aiming said machine gun at the Heavenly Host to wrest free will from God certainly seems to have brought it back.Darth Wong wrote:Good old human nature. Give us a responsibility, and we will hem, haw, or bury our heads in the sand. But give us an enemy, especially an ultimate enemy like this one, and we will fight to the end.
God was concerned enough about the effort of some bronze-age tribes with mud bricks to take active measures to stop it. That should tell you something.Ryan Thunder wrote:Didn't we already try something like that? And fail? :wtf:
IIRC god fucked us over by scattering humanity and giving them different languages because we were to capable.Ryan Thunder wrote:Didn't we already try something like that? And fail?
A couple hundred million demons against 6 billion humans. We've got the manpower reserve to handle the legions of Hell several times over.Setzer wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_ ... _of_demons
according to Alfonso de Spina, there are 133,316,666 demons in hell.
Johaan Weyer, in his Pseudomonarchia Daemonum (1583) after a complicated system of hierarchies and calculations, estimated the number of demons in 44,435,622, divided in 666 legion, each legion composed by 6,666 demons, and all of them ruled by 66 hellish dukes, princes, kings, etc.
Unfortunately, the numbers changed with each edition of Weyer's book.
Either way, we're up against quite a few demons. Fortunately, humans are more prolific.
We can buy ourselves the prep time with our superior tactics and firepower.CaptainChewbacca wrote:The thing is, that 130+ million demons is almost 100% combatants. I seriously doubt 20th century earth can, without any prep, field a similar number of troops.
Evidence? We know that Hell employs a truly phenomenal amount of torturers and other such nastiness. Why should all of them be fully-capable warrior types as well?CaptainChewbacca wrote:The thing is, that 130+ million demons is almost 100% combatants. I seriously doubt 20th century earth can, without any prep, field a similar number of troops.
Well, if they're fallen angels, they've been in at least one war with other immortals, and if they're Lilith's offspring, they're still asserted to have some pretty cool abilities.White Haven wrote:Evidence? We know that Hell employs a truly phenomenal amount of torturers and other such nastiness. Why should all of them be fully-capable warrior types as well?CaptainChewbacca wrote:The thing is, that 130+ million demons is almost 100% combatants. I seriously doubt 20th century earth can, without any prep, field a similar number of troops.
That he's paranoid? We knew that *already*.The Duchess of Zeon wrote: God was concerned enough about the effort of some bronze-age tribes with mud bricks to take active measures to stop it. That should tell you something.
While you make alot of sense, one of the key traits of demons is that they are fundamentally uncapable of changing, at least with respect to their revolt against God. While humans may accept or reject God many times during their lives, for demons it was a one-time choice.Zuul wrote:Well, if they're fallen angels, they've been in at least one war with other immortals, and if they're Lilith's offspring, they're still asserted to have some pretty cool abilities.
There's also the potential for the demons to have their own sciences (the Ars Goetia has several demons with knowledge of science and the future, for instance, as well as all the major ones commanding "legions" of lesser demons), after all, they're meant to roam the Earth unseen and in dark places, influencing people to war and debauchery. We may be vastly underestimating their intelligence and social evolution. Why would demons remain the same and only humans change, anyway?
Going by what's been described in the biblical texts, their "pretty cool abilities" have already been outstripped by modern technology.Zuul wrote:Well, if they're fallen angels, they've been in at least one war with other immortals, and if they're Lilith's offspring, they're still asserted to have some pretty cool abilities.White Haven wrote:Evidence? We know that Hell employs a truly phenomenal amount of torturers and other such nastiness. Why should all of them be fully-capable warrior types as well?CaptainChewbacca wrote:The thing is, that 130+ million demons is almost 100% combatants. I seriously doubt 20th century earth can, without any prep, field a similar number of troops.
Isolation, for a start. And if beings can be summoned up and commanded by a book of magic words and phrases, that indicates that they've not changed all that much in the last five thousand years. That is, after all, what the Ars Goetia is about.There's also the potential for the demons to have their own sciences (the Ars Goetia has several demons with knowledge of science and the future, for instance, as well as all the major ones commanding "legions" of lesser demons), after all, they're meant to roam the Earth unseen and in dark places, influencing people to war and debauchery. We may be vastly underestimating their intelligence and social evolution. Why would demons remain the same and only humans change, anyway?
Uhh, Jehovah can create violate conservation of energy, creating matter from nothing. And, presumably, antimatter, if he created the whole universe. That would present some trouble.Patrick Degan wrote:Going by what's been described in the biblical texts, their "pretty cool abilities" have already been outstripped by modern technology.Zuul wrote:Well, if they're fallen angels, they've been in at least one war with other immortals, and if they're Lilith's offspring, they're still asserted to have some pretty cool abilities.White Haven wrote: Evidence? We know that Hell employs a truly phenomenal amount of torturers and other such nastiness. Why should all of them be fully-capable warrior types as well?
Assuming demons can't specify a deal we can't meet in exchange for the data. Or, more likely, a deal that would require us to corrupt ourselves, and possibly advance their cause.Isolation, for a start. And if beings can be summoned up and commanded by a book of magic words and phrases, that indicates that they've not changed all that much in the last five thousand years. That is, after all, what the Ars Goetia is about.There's also the potential for the demons to have their own sciences (the Ars Goetia has several demons with knowledge of science and the future, for instance, as well as all the major ones commanding "legions" of lesser demons), after all, they're meant to roam the Earth unseen and in dark places, influencing people to war and debauchery. We may be vastly underestimating their intelligence and social evolution. Why would demons remain the same and only humans change, anyway?
BTW, that hands humanity yet another weapon or at least a means of confounding the enemy or learning their secrets, since once summoned and bound under the proper incantations, the demon must obey its summoner and answer all questions put to it. Far more efficient and quicker than waterboarding.
Jehovah can also be driven off by iron chariots. Not very impressive for a being which can supposedly violate the laws of physics at will as you would have it —which, BTW, is not supported by what is written regarding his alleged miracles, or even the creation.Gullible Jones wrote:Uhh, Jehovah can create violate conservation of energy, creating matter from nothing. And, presumably, antimatter, if he created the whole universe. That would present some trouble.Patrick Degan wrote:Going by what's been described in the biblical texts, their "pretty cool abilities" have already been outstripped by modern technology.Zuul wrote: Well, if they're fallen angels, they've been in at least one war with other immortals, and if they're Lilith's offspring, they're still asserted to have some pretty cool abilities.
Um, nope. The incantations and rituals in the Ars indicate that the demon is bound once summoned to the circle. It is, of course, the responsibility of the magus to keep control of the exchange but again that's the point of the book.Assuming demons can't specify a deal we can't meet in exchange for the data. Or, more likely, a deal that would require us to corrupt ourselves, and possibly advance their cause.
Nothing indicates that the rituals would be rendered ineffective by God's lack of cooperation. Indeed, it is already a violation of his edicts to even be fooling with magick in the first place yet that supposedly does not prevent the incantations from working.Also, if God isn't cooperating, the assorted Catholic-style methods of controlling demons might not work, which would definitely be a bit of a setback.
I just noticed something. Assuming that whatever equipment the person was carrying end up in hell with him...then thanks to all the wars we had, Hell COULD get certain tanks, planes and etc.Stark wrote:Oh yeah, I bet guys with guns never showed up in hell before!
What are you, fucking retarded?
I've actually seen plenty of fundies try and excuse such things as "ancient man seeing modern stuff but having to describe it using words the ancient people would understand". Seriously, I've heard them insist things in the bible like dragons are really a 2000 year ago ignoramous trying to describe having a vision of a modern jet.Darth Wong wrote:Doesn't the Bible describe the weapons that are used when Jesus comes back? The guy comes back with a sword in his mouth. Don't you think that if a guy could upgrade from a sword in his mouth to 120mm smoothbore, he would have done so? It seems to me that their technology is in stasis.