Heaven Runs out of Room

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Post by RogueIce » 2008-01-10 12:56am

Darth Wong wrote:Maybe it's cyclical, which is another common theme in ancient mythology. So you die and go to Hell, and when you die in Hell, you go to another Hell, and so on, and so on. With an eternity of Hells in different places.
Perhaps, I'm certainly no expert so maybe I'm talking out my ass here. But where are these other Hells going to be located? Is there a way to go between them somehow? Or is it maybe like one big afterlife prison, with a general population Hell, solitary confinement Hell, a SuperMax Hell?
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Post by Rye » 2008-01-10 12:58am

Darth Wong wrote:
Zuul wrote:I never wrote "one way interaction" either.
Yes you did, you just didn't realize it. You kept ranting about some kind of ecto-whatever field that allows nothing but souls to enter. If that's the case, then how the hell are we supposed to observe this place and get our incontrovertible proof of its existence and nature? It would look like a black hole.
That wasn't my intention. It was intended as a way of separating the living from the dead as tends to be the case with the mythology in question. Light going through would be fine.
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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-01-10 01:00am

Zuul wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Zuul wrote:I never wrote "one way interaction" either.
Yes you did, you just didn't realize it. You kept ranting about some kind of ecto-whatever field that allows nothing but souls to enter. If that's the case, then how the hell are we supposed to observe this place and get our incontrovertible proof of its existence and nature? It would look like a black hole.
That wasn't my intention. It was intended as a way of separating the living from the dead as tends to be the case with the mythology in question. Light going through would be fine.
Hey, I can make a light-emitting image on my fucking TV set. You'll have to do better than an image to produce incontrovertible proof of anything. It has to be possible to obtain other kinds of measurements. Send in probes, etc. Otherwise people will just think it's a light-show.
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Post by Darth Servo » 2008-01-10 01:02am

Surlethe wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:The thermodynamics of Hell would be interesting to examine. Does it have an infinite power source? Or would the act of tapping into it as a power source cause an eventual cooling death of Hell?
Have you seen the thermodynamics of hell test answer?
Anyone who hasn't can't possibly have an email account, its been forwarded around so many times.

How about the "biblical proof" that heaven is actually hotter than hell?

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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-01-10 01:22am

You know what? Even if one believes that the direction this thread has taken is a violation of the spirit of the OP, it really isn't. It demonstrates that if this situation were to occur, regardless of whether we could succeed at declaring war on Heaven or Hell, we would try. We would view it as an obstacle to overcome, rather than all sinking into some kind of bizarre nihilist suicidal funk. Even if we don't have the slightest idea how we'd do it, or we can't see a way to solve the problem for centuries or millenia, we would try.
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Post by Zablorg » 2008-01-10 01:30am

I think there might be some national competition for ownership of Hell, especially if there is a war going on. An army of continiously respawning soldiers would be a very large advantage.
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Post by Oskuro » 2008-01-10 03:20am

I wonder if, faced with unavoidable damnation.... People would start trying to enjoy life, instead of sheepishly waiting for the promised afterlife.
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Post by Dargos » 2008-01-10 03:35am

I wonder if, faced with unavoidable damnation.... People would start trying to enjoy life, instead of sheepishly waiting for the promised afterlife.
Perhaps some enterprising scientists could work out a way to "trap" the souls of the departed on the Earthly plane of existence instead of letting it slip off to eternal torment. Man made Heaven on Earth anyone?
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Post by lance » 2008-01-10 03:47am

Darth Wong wrote:Apparently, Zuul does not understand what "interaction" means. He thinks you can have completely one-way interaction in physics.
Lets say there was a magical super barrier that only allowed spirits and light through. We can see hell, blind demons with lasers and little else. Maybe recon numbers work out how the transition works. Kill person in Siberia they appear in hell location X. Kill a person in china they appear in 300 miles north.


If one dies and are sent there roughly as they are with the people they die near, then I could see nations raising massive armies only to sacrifice them to liberating hell. If they don't come with weapons I could see a bunch of soldiers swarming the blinded demons. Might work. Maybe we can kill them into a sparsly populated section of hell so they can scavenge rocks into knives or clubs. Though Hell's demons usually are depicted with spears, so maybe theres some trees for spears.

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Post by lance » 2008-01-10 04:02am

RogueIce wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Maybe it's cyclical, which is another common theme in ancient mythology. So you die and go to Hell, and when you die in Hell, you go to another Hell, and so on, and so on. With an eternity of Hells in different places.
Perhaps, I'm certainly no expert so maybe I'm talking out my ass here. But where are these other Hells going to be located? Is there a way to go between them somehow? Or is it maybe like one big afterlife prison, with a general population Hell, solitary confinement Hell, a SuperMax Hell?
It could be that earth was hell that was invaded and taken over by the previous earth that then became heaven, who then shut the portal/or gateway or what ever down. Or maybe it branched so earth is connected to like 5 hells, a heaven and another earth. So once we realize where heaven and hell are we find out about hell 1-4 and a neighboring earth.

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Post by lance » 2008-01-10 04:09am

Darth Wong wrote:BTW, is there any reason to believe that demons and angels are indestructible? Certainly, all of the other ancient mythologies allowed for the destruction of gods. Many of them even had Heaven Doomsday mythologies in which the gods were all killed. One might argue that the reason Hell doesn't fill up is simply that the people there have a finite lifespan or can get killed off.
They may not be indestructible, but they are normally thought of as above human. They could also be just as well armed as any human army. They are normally depicted as wielding spears and the like, but they may have upgraded there arsenals in the last 500 hundred years. So I imagine they could be like a gorilla strength, steel skinned man with an AK-47. They could on the other hand be like joe couch potato with a pitch fork, only maintaing their position due to hitting shocked new arrivals and shackling them. There is seriously not a lot to go on.

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Post by His Divine Shadow » 2008-01-10 06:54am

Stark wrote:Oh yeah, I bet guys with guns never showed up in hell before!

What are you, fucking retarded?
That happened in "Radio Pleppo", a swedish-finnish radio humor program, Claes-Göran the insane veterinarian who had released a large cobra into the offices of the seniors radio channel because he wasn't hired goes to hell after an accident in an elevator and shoots the devil because he had a gun in his boot.

It was a pretty funny, demented, show.
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Post by Lagmonster » 2008-01-10 09:02am

Darth Wong wrote:BTW, is there any reason to believe that demons and angels are indestructible? Certainly, all of the other ancient mythologies allowed for the destruction of gods. Many of them even had Heaven Doomsday mythologies in which the gods were all killed. One might argue that the reason Hell doesn't fill up is simply that the people there have a finite lifespan or can get killed off.
I haven't cracked open a bible in some time, but I seem to recall Revelations mentioning that demons, the beast, etc., are vulnerable as any organic creature. I seem to recall the message that Jesus is coming back to earth with a SWORD, of all things, to battle Satan, and his army likewise equipped and riding HORSES. Rev 19:21 basically says to me that Satan's armies can be killed as easily as any person and their mobility crippled by modern armour.

So...yeah. One assumes the National Guard could take Hell if they're vulnerable to swords and fire.
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Re: Heaven Runs out of Room

Post by wautd » 2008-01-10 09:53am

Stravo wrote: How would something like that effect humanity? Would people panic and freak out? Would murderers become the most heinous criminals of all? (Not that they weren't but you get my drift, if you kill someone you are also consigning them to hell for all eternity.) Would having children be seen as reprehensible? Would nations go to war anymore knowing the price their soldiers pay and even if they did would their soldiers fight? Would suicide bombing cease over night? Has religion lost its meaning now that no matter what you say or do you are damned?
On the short term, I don't think I'd like to be a clergy member of one of the world religions. I think they'll be to first to be on the receiving end when despair of the common people turns into anger

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Post by Alyrium Denryle » 2008-01-10 01:18pm

Lagmonster wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:BTW, is there any reason to believe that demons and angels are indestructible? Certainly, all of the other ancient mythologies allowed for the destruction of gods. Many of them even had Heaven Doomsday mythologies in which the gods were all killed. One might argue that the reason Hell doesn't fill up is simply that the people there have a finite lifespan or can get killed off.
I haven't cracked open a bible in some time, but I seem to recall Revelations mentioning that demons, the beast, etc., are vulnerable as any organic creature. I seem to recall the message that Jesus is coming back to earth with a SWORD, of all things, to battle Satan, and his army likewise equipped and riding HORSES. Rev 19:21 basically says to me that Satan's armies can be killed as easily as any person and their mobility crippled by modern armour.

So...yeah. One assumes the National Guard could take Hell if they're vulnerable to swords and fire.
You know, it strikes me here that with the existence of heaven and hell, god etc, we can probably assume a few more things. Namely the existence of spirit mediums (as portrayed when Saul learned of his own death) If these exist then we have a way of communicating with hell, and indeed potentially invading it.

Potentially, by having a bunch of spirit mediums concentrating on one person, we could widen the channel, maybe large enough to send people with automatic weapons through. If that were the case, the physical location of hell would become irrelevant.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar » 2008-01-10 03:23pm

Darth Wong wrote:You know what? Even if one believes that the direction this thread has taken is a violation of the spirit of the OP, it really isn't. It demonstrates that if this situation were to occur, regardless of whether we could succeed at declaring war on Heaven or Hell, we would try. We would view it as an obstacle to overcome, rather than all sinking into some kind of bizarre nihilist suicidal funk. Even if we don't have the slightest idea how we'd do it, or we can't see a way to solve the problem for centuries or millenia, we would try.
Or, to put it more succinctly, we'd have faith.

How delicious.

I do like the idea of going all Lord Asriel and trying to take on the Kingdom of Heaven and create a republic instead. Just got to hope Metatron doesn't like thermonuclear weapons.

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Post by Stuart » 2008-01-10 03:33pm

Darth Wong wrote:You know what? Even if one believes that the direction this thread has taken is a violation of the spirit of the OP, it really isn't. It demonstrates that if this situation were to occur, regardless of whether we could succeed at declaring war on Heaven or Hell, we would try. We would view it as an obstacle to overcome, rather than all sinking into some kind of bizarre nihilist suicidal funk. Even if we don't have the slightest idea how we'd do it, or we can't see a way to solve the problem for centuries or millenia, we would try.
Exactly, we might not stand a chance of winning but we would, if you'll excuse the phrase, die trying.

Only, we probably stand a pretty good chance of winning. All the theistic mythologies of hell were written around two millenia ago and they all predicted what seemed like awesome characteristics then. They're pretty pathetic by our standards today. I cam imagine some of the responses right now.

"Gee, they think sulphur and brimstone is good. Hit them back with Sarin and Tabun. Oh. and toss some thickened soman in for shits and giggles."

"Was that a lighning bolt somebody tossed? Didn't really notice, the earthing and EMP hardening coped with it. Have Boeing got their ABL up yet? If so, prioritize where that came from."

"Did you hear about the Archangel Michael? The IRA got him with an IED."

"We're going to have to redefine ace status for fighter pilots. Did you see how the 122nd FIS went through those flying angels? Ground underneath is feet thick in minced angel parts."

'Oh so they chucked a plague of frogs. Get on the line to our friends in (insert country to taste) and get a load of genetically-engineered smallpox delivered."

(tank commander) "Hey, guess what guys, when we drive over them, demons go crunch too."

(tank gunner, thoughfully). "So HVDUAPCFSDS will penetrate the "armor of righteousness".

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Post by Setzer » 2008-01-10 04:53pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_ ... _of_demons

according to Alfonso de Spina, there are 133,316,666 demons in hell.

Johaan Weyer, in his Pseudomonarchia Daemonum (1583) after a complicated system of hierarchies and calculations, estimated the number of demons in 44,435,622, divided in 666 legion, each legion composed by 6,666 demons, and all of them ruled by 66 hellish dukes, princes, kings, etc.

Unfortunately, the numbers changed with each edition of Weyer's book.

Either way, we're up against quite a few demons. Fortunately, humans are more prolific.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca » 2008-01-10 05:12pm

I can't remember the numbers, but I have a book of demonology that places the count at least an order of magnitude above that, and probably more. I'll have some info for you all later tonight with the basic structure of hell, its legions, and the more important figures.

What might REALLY help is if we can persuade a part of the Host of Heaven to side with us. Even ONE seraph would be worth a hundred tactical nukes.

I have, however, thought of an unfortunate wrinkle; Who's to say Satan, faced with the oncoming invasion force, might not offer 'leniency' or special privilages to deceased soldiers who fight for his banner?
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Post by Zablorg » 2008-01-10 05:21pm

In the time between initiating conquest and actually taking hell over, there might even be rescue missions of sorts, where a force goes in there and rescues the deceased.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca » 2008-01-10 05:22pm

Rescue them from what, to where? The more souls hell has to deal with, the more distracted they are.
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Post by Zablorg » 2008-01-10 05:32pm

Well, assuming the deceased can go out, then they might be able to escape from the same entryway that the rescue force came in.

It would also depend on how large hell is. If it had as much space as Earth, there would be less than one demon per square kilometer. A quarter of the size of Earth, around 4 demons per kilometer. In any case, either the force won't encounter much resistance given that they probably don't have alarms, or hell is pretty small.
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Post by Ghost Rider » 2008-01-10 05:59pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I can't remember the numbers, but I have a book of demonology that places the count at least an order of magnitude above that, and probably more. I'll have some info for you all later tonight with the basic structure of hell, its legions, and the more important figures.

What might REALLY help is if we can persuade a part of the Host of Heaven to side with us. Even ONE seraph would be worth a hundred tactical nukes.

I have, however, thought of an unfortunate wrinkle; Who's to say Satan, faced with the oncoming invasion force, might not offer 'leniency' or special privilages to deceased soldiers who fight for his banner?
So you're going to demonstrate proof that you aren't talking out your ass?

While Mike is saying one would storm Heaven/Hell...he at least is working on the thought that these things exist within a physical universe and obey physical laws, thus have said points to it.

You're just pulling it straight out of air and expecting us to accept this because?

This lovely tangent aside, the sheer initial wave of panic would be honestly monstrous. Though religion would go straight to the shitter, since it will be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt it will do NOTHING for you.
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Post by Gullible Jones » 2008-01-10 06:00pm

That might be pretty bad, if the demons have demigod-like powers.

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Post by CaptainChewbacca » 2008-01-10 06:13pm

Ghost Rider wrote:So you're going to demonstrate proof that you aren't talking out your ass?

While Mike is saying one would storm Heaven/Hell...he at least is working on the thought that these things exist within a physical universe and obey physical laws, thus have said points to it.

You're just pulling it straight out of air and expecting us to accept this because?
Not out of the air, out of books devoted to the ecumenical study of hell, which is for lack of a better source, all we've got.
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