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"Disproportionate force" is often mentioned in news reports and articles, but what would be "proportionate" force in this situation?

Coyote wrote:Fuck, they hit Beer-Sheva? My "Israeli home town"?

Where did the rockets land? MSNBC said they hit Beer-Sheva...

Haaretz wrote:Gaza rockets strike Be'er Sheva for 1st time; 34 treated for shock
By Yanir Yagna, Haaretz Correspondent, Haaretz Staff and News Agencies
Tags: Gaza, Hamas, Israel news

Two Katyusha rockets fired by militants in the Gaza Strip exploded Tuesday evening in Be'er Sheva region, 37 kilometers from the coastal territory. This was the furthest point eastward which a Palestinian projectile has managed to reach.



One of the rockets on the area struck a children's playground. Nobody was wounded in the attack, but 34 people were treated for shock.

More than 40 rockets at the western Negev on Tuesday, including one which reached the vicinity of the Bedouin town of Rahat and Ofakim, both west of Be'er Sheva.

Hamas took responsibility for the Katyushas aimed at Be'er Sheva, and its military wing said last night that it plans to fire at Israeli targets that are even further away as long as the IDF operation continues.

Rockets exploded continuously throughout the day, with a number striking the northern Negev cities of Ashkelon and Ashdod. One person was lightly wounded when two rockets exploded in Ashkelon in the late evening.

A rocket fired in the afternoon scored a direct hit on a kibbutz dining hall in the Sha'ar Hanegev Regional Council. There were no injuries in the incident, but the building sustained severe damage.

Channel Two television reported earlier Tuesday that rockets exploded in the western Negev towns of Kiryat Malachi and Kiryat Gat.

A Qassam rocket struck a home in the western Negev town of Sderot on Tuesday. One person sustained minor shrapnel wounds, and three others suffered shock.

No occupants were at home when the projectile slammed into the house. Another Qassam rocket hit the backyard of a Sderot home, while five others exploded in open areas near Sderot.

Other rockets caused some damage to hothouses in the Eshkol region.

The attacks came after Palestinian rockets had killed three Israelis on Monday, and wounded nine more, one of them critically.

Home Front Command chief praises civilian response

The head of the Israel Defense Forces Home Front Command, Yair Golan, convened a press conference in the western Negev town of Ofakim on Tuesday.

Golan praised the resiliency of western Negev residents who have absorbed rocket barrages and the alertness displayed by municipal workers in responding to the citizens' distress.

Golan also warned civilians to take greater heed of Home Front Command directives instructing those within range of Palestinian rocket fire to enter bomb-proof shelters immediately upon hearing the warning sirens.

"These directives save lives," Golan told reporters. "The civilians who were killed in Netivot and Ashkelon - if they had followed the directives perhaps they would have saved their lives. I call on all civilians in the south not to enter a state of complacency and to understand that the directives are a question of life and death."


Husband of rocket fatality expresses shock at loss

The husband of one of three Israelis killed Monday in rocket attacks from Gaza said Tuesday that although strikes had been expected in Ashdod, more than 30 kilometers from Gaza, the family never thought that it would affect them in such a tragic manner.

Irit Sheetrit, 39, was killed after she got out of her vehicle when she heard the early warning siren, and sought shelter in a bus stop on the side of the road. She sustained critical shrapnel wounds, and later died of her injuries. Another passerby who also ducked into the bus stop for shelter is in serious condition.

"We are stunned, it came as a bolt from the blue," Herzl Sheetrit told Army Radio. "All the family is together and we can't digest what has happened. We are comforting one another."

"There was a sudden blast and I heard screams," Sheetrit said. "When I arrived at the site of the rocket strike, the ambulances had already evacuated her."

Irit was laid to rest Tuesday at the cemetery in Ashdod. On Tuesday afternoon, the funeral also took place for Sergeant Major Lutafi Nasraladin, 38, from Daliat al-Karmel, who was killed Monday evening by mortar fire on a military base in the Negev.

The third victim of Monday Gaza attacks was named as Hani al Mahdi, a 27-year-old construction worker from the Bedouin village of Aroer, who was killed while working at a building site in Ashkelon. He was fatally wounded by shrapnel from a Grad rocket when he was caught in the open en route to a protected area.

At least 80 rockets have were fired into Israel on Monday. Several of the rockets hit Ashkelon, while others struck Sderot and other rocket weary communities in the western Negev.

Three rockets hit the city of Yavneh Monday evening, the northernmost point a Palestinian rocket has hit to date.

BBC wrote: Gaza diplomatic pressure boosted

A concerted diplomatic drive is under way to try to end Israeli air strikes on the Gaza Strip and Palestinian militant rocket attacks.

Both the Quartet of Middle East peace-brokers and EU foreign ministers called for an immediate ceasefire after urgent talks on Tuesday.

The Arab League is due to meet in Cairo later to discuss the crisis.

A possible 48-hour ceasefire plan was raised during a four-hour Israeli leadership meeting late on Tuesday.

Reports of that meeting - attended by Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and his defence and foreign ministers - suggested any pause in fighting would be accompanied by a threat to send in ground troops if rocket fire into Israel continued.

French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner had proposed the 48-hour truce to allow aid in to Gaza.

Fifth day

Israel's cabinet will consider all its options at a meeting later, says the BBC's Mike Sergeant in Jerusalem.

While the ceasefire request will be discussed, so too will the possibility of widening and deepening this campaign, our correspondent says.

An extra 2,500 reservists have been called up by the Israeli army and, on the frontier with Gaza, preparations continue for a possible Israeli ground operation.

A statement by Hamas has warned any invasion would see "the children of Gaza collecting the body parts of Israeli soldiers and the ruins of tanks".

For a fifth day on Wednesday, Israeli missiles pounded tunnels along Gaza's Egyptian frontier, as well as an office of former Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh and other buildings linked to his Hamas movement.

Some 374 Palestinians have died in Israeli air strikes since Saturday; four Israelis have been killed by rockets fired from Gaza, which is under Hamas control.

Israel has warned it is ready for weeks of action to end the threat posed by rockets, one of which on Tuesday landed in Beersheba, 46 km (28 miles) from the Gaza Strip.

The UN says at least 62 Palestinian civilians have died since Saturday, while humanitarian agencies say they are struggling to contend with both the air strikes and a lack of medical and food supplies.

Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni is expected to travel to Paris on Thursday for talks with French President Nicolas Sarkozy.

Ground operations?

The Quartet - which comprises the US, UN, EU and Russia - called for a ceasefire "that would be fully respected" and for all parties to address "the serious humanitarian and economic needs in Gaza", a UN spokeswoman said.

The EU foreign ministers echoed that call following a meeting in the French capital, Paris.

A separate proposal from Egypt and a number of other Arab countries has called on Israel to reopen its border with Gaza.

The US - Israel's strongest ally - has called for a long-term solution beyond any immediate ceasefire. But the White House reiterated that the onus was on Hamas to act first to end the violence.

Mr Olmert said earlier that the air assault on Gaza was "the first in several stages" of operations against Hamas.

Israel has massed forces along the boundary with Gaza and has declared the area around it a "closed military zone".

Correspondents say the move could be a prelude to ground operations, but could also be intended to build pressure on Hamas.

The Israeli air strikes began less than a week after the expiry of a six-month-long ceasefire deal with Hamas.

Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 but has kept tight control over access in and out of Gaza and its airspace.

Story from BBC NEWS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/ ... 805558.stm

weemadando wrote:The IDF started a YouTube channel to get more of their side out there.

They are winning the media war hands down this time.

Six clichés you are likely to hear constantly in the coming days, and why they’re false

1) “Israel’s response in Gaza is disproportionate”


Since when is war a mathematical equation? The basic objective of any warring party is to inflict maximal damage on the enemy while minimizing its own casualties. Was there anything proportional about the US war in Iraq? Or about Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait for that matter? Or about Russia’s recent war against Georgia? Israel is doing exactly what any other country has done in the past. This is how war works.

Would a British citizen complain that “too few” British soldiers are being killed in Iraq? Probably not.

And on a more elementary note: Palestinian military inferiority is not an indication of moral superiority. Palestinian insistence on resorting to violence despite this military weakness is an indication of poor judgment perhaps – yet it is by no means an indication of moral virtue. Being militarily weak does not make the Palestinians right.


2) “But Qassams don’t kill”


Actually, Qassams do kill. Not too often, perhaps, but dozens of Israelis were killed and wounded by rocket fire in recent years. Moreover, at this time the Palestinians are firing long-range Grad rockets with even greater explosive power. Such rockets killed 2 Israelis Monday.

Yet beyond the casualty figures, the psychological damage caused as result of living under an ongoing rocket threat is immeasurable. Would anyone in the West agree to have their family live under constant rocket attacks and be regularly woken up by sirens in the middle of the night? Would anyone living under such conditions appreciate being told that “these rockets don’t kill?” Probably not.


3) “It’s all because of Israel’s siege. Israel should allow aid into Gaza.”


Israel has allowed goods into Gaza regularly throughout the “siege”. Palestinians have been able to complement these deliveries with supplies smuggled through hundreds of tunnels (of course, they would likely be able to bring in even more food had they not used the tunnels to smuggle in missiles.).

The day before operation “Cast Lead” got underway, Israel allowed dozens of trucks carrying aid to enter the Strip. On Tuesday, another 100 trucks – double the normal number –are expected to enter Gaza after Defense Minister Barak approved the move.

In short, Israel is allowing aid into the Strip (but guess who has kept Gaza crossings mostly closed thus far? That’s right, Egypt.)


4) “Why didn’t Israel just agree to renew the Gaza truce?”


First, what truce? Terror groups continued to fire rockets throughout the lull, even if somewhat infrequently, and even if the world didn’t seem to care too much. Nonetheless, Israel clearly declared that it is interested in extending the truce. Our top officials made it clear time and again.

Yet Hamas leaders clearly declared that the truce has ended on December 19th, and proceeded to bombard southern Israeli communities with dozens of rockets daily. In short, it is no wonder that even the Egyptians are blaming Hamas this time.


5) “But Hamas was elected democratically – why can’t Israel accept it?”


Although Hamas won the Palestinian elections, it took Gaza by force, in the process hurling rival Fatah members down to their death from high-rises and shooting others in the knees with the declared aim of maiming them. Some democracy.

In any case, Israel in fact “recognizes,” de facto, Hamas’ rule in Gaza, which is precisely why it is justified in attacking the Hamas-ruled Strip, recognizing that it is indeed being governed by a terror entity. Israel did not launch the operation because Hamas is in power there – rather, it did so because Hamas is a terrorist organization that has deliberately targeted civilians with thousands of rockets over the past 8 years.


6) “Israel is targeting civilians”


You mean to say that “one of the most powerful armies in the world” has been bombing Gaza for days, deploying massive air power, dropping hundreds of bombs, and ultimately killing a grand total of 50 civilians or so in the “most crowded place on earth?”

There are two options here: A) The Israeli army is not targeting civilians, or B) Israeli pilots suck. We tend to go with option A.

Indeed, Israel goes to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties, by deploying precise ammunition and specialized techniques. In fact, nobody in the world does this better than the Jewish State.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Is there a possibility that Israel might just bomb the crap out of Hamas and just use its ground forces to growl and not invade?

Sarevok wrote:Sooo how many battalions worth of fresh cannonfodder can Hamas look forward to when the dust settles ?

Imagine airstrikes and artillery wiping out 300 people in your town and the ensuing bloodlust and call for revenge. Palestinians are likely not going to be any more rational in the kneejerk "kill ten of them for each of us" line of thinking. Especially given their past record.

Coyote wrote:Fuck, they hit Beer-Sheva? My "Israeli home town"?

Where did the rockets land? MSNBC said they hit Beer-Sheva...

[R_H] wrote:"Disproportionate force" is often mentioned in news reports and articles, but what would be "proportionate" force in this situation?

MKSheppard wrote:The ideal "proportionate force" would be to hook up a MRLS battalion to a computer taking inputs from a firefinder radar. If a rocket is detected coming from Gaza or the West Bank, the computer slews the launchers and launches a single rocket back at the launch point.

Axis Kast wrote:There is an old joke that no Egyptian was ever heard to cry over the lost territory of Gaza.

While the prestige value of a successful peace mission would be high, the Egyptians would have hell to pay coming to blows with the Palestinians. Arabs fighting Arabs? No way.

Axis Kast wrote:It's happened, but in the context of Gaza, it would appear to be Arabs fighting Arabs for Israel's benefit. And, in Yemen, Egypt could claim that it was fighting a regime, not a whole people, whatever the truth. In Gaza, it will be much harder to make that distinction -- Israel hasn't been able to pull it off, for example.

Were Egypt to patrol the border/police Gaza in a peacekeeping mode - would not Hamas be loathe to attack them at least - and by proxy be loathe to mortar Israel specifically to avoid incurring the wrath of Egypt and potentially lose the goodwill of the rest of the Arab world who has staunchly supported them, by and large, up to this point?

I mean, it isn't as if Egypt hasn't bucked Arab will before; wasn't Egypt the first Arab country to recognize Israel in the first place (their reasons for doing so notwithstanding)?

Chardok wrote:Why couldn't they spin it as "We will not allow the zionists to continue bombing our muslim brothers. If we move in, they will not DARE bomb us (The Egyptians) But Palestine MUST honor the Cease-Fire (Which is, indeed Egypt's stance.)"

Then everyone wins - Egypt is seen as the savior of thousands in Gaza, and Israel gets a cease-fire that is much more likely to stick - at least temporarily.

Axis Kast wrote:There is an old joke that no Egyptian was ever heard to cry over the lost territory of Gaza.

While the prestige value of a successful peace mission would be high, the Egyptians would have hell to pay coming to blows with the Palestinians. Arabs fighting Arabs? No way.