Something big

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Elheru Aran
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Re: Something big

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-07-19 06:08pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
2018-07-19 04:47pm
I mean the available information is "they converted their liners into warships". Literally. No if, no buts, no rumours or fake outs. That's canonically (as far as the old canon is concerned) what they did and they don't care if you think it makes engineering sense or not.
Still, it's technically true if they built some warships that just happened to be dressed up real fancy, had a promenade inside, lots of servants, and were registered as liners... but once they got far enough out from the borders, all the passengers are cheerfully told they have to abandon ship, the crap is tossed overboard, and suddenly the Alliance has a warship.
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.

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Re: Something big

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2018-07-19 08:05pm

Love. A heavy turbolaser or two, Close to attack. We're expecting youuu. The Love Boat. Soon we'll flying off to war....
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
—29th Scroll, 6th Verse of Ape Law
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Re: Something big

Post by PhoenixKnig » 2018-07-19 09:39pm

I'll watch that show
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Re: Something big

Post by Captain Seafort » 2018-07-20 12:45pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
2018-07-19 04:47pm
I mean the available information is "they converted their liners into warships". Literally. No if, no buts, no rumours or fake outs. That's canonically (as far as the old canon is concerned) what they did and they don't care if you think it makes engineering sense or not.
Just because they're liners doesn't mean they haven't been designed from the keel up for rapid conversion into warships.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe - Albert Einstein

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Re: Something big

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-07-21 01:50pm

Captain Seafort wrote:
2018-07-20 12:45pm
Crazedwraith wrote:
2018-07-19 04:47pm
I mean the available information is "they converted their liners into warships". Literally. No if, no buts, no rumours or fake outs. That's canonically (as far as the old canon is concerned) what they did and they don't care if you think it makes engineering sense or not.
Just because they're liners doesn't mean they haven't been designed from the keel up for rapid conversion into warships.
^Pretty much what I think evillejedi was getting at. Figuring that the Mon Cals might be able to hide some warship designs among their liners by burying the Imperial inspectors in paperwork. "You want to look at this curiously heavily built ship we just made? No problem, but you'll have to wear this heavy diving suit, it's full of water, we are a water species after all don't you know..."
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.

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Re: Something big

Post by Esquire » 2018-07-22 09:14am

I am now picturing Sir Humphrey Applefish of the Mon Calamari Ministry for Imperial Relations, and it's making me very happy.
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Re: Something big

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2018-07-22 10:01am

"The MC80 is lovely, it's elegant, it's beautiful, it's quite frankly the best. In the world of the starliner-turned-capital ship, it's the Saville Row diving suit, the Rolls-Royce Aquaflyer, the Chataeu la Squid 1945. It is the starliner-turned-capital ship Harrods would sell you! What more need I say?"
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: Something big

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-07-22 10:07am

Only that it costs 50 billion credits and we don't need it.
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Re: Something big

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2018-07-22 10:12am

You can say that about anything at Harrods!
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: Something big

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2018-07-22 10:16am

Elheru Aran wrote:
2018-07-21 01:50pm
Captain Seafort wrote:
2018-07-20 12:45pm
Crazedwraith wrote:
2018-07-19 04:47pm
I mean the available information is "they converted their liners into warships". Literally. No if, no buts, no rumours or fake outs. That's canonically (as far as the old canon is concerned) what they did and they don't care if you think it makes engineering sense or not.
Just because they're liners doesn't mean they haven't been designed from the keel up for rapid conversion into warships.
^Pretty much what I think evillejedi was getting at. Figuring that the Mon Cals might be able to hide some warship designs among their liners by burying the Imperial inspectors in paperwork. "You want to look at this curiously heavily built ship we just made? No problem, but you'll have to wear this heavy diving suit, it's full of water, we are a water species after all don't you know..."
That's because the Empire didn't have James Bolivar di Griz on the case.
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
—29th Scroll, 6th Verse of Ape Law
"Indelible in the hippocampus is the laughter. The uproarious laughter between the two, and their having fun at my expense.”
---Doctor Christine Blasey-Ford

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Re: Something big

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2018-07-22 10:17am

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2018-07-22 10:01am
"The MC80 is lovely, it's elegant, it's beautiful, it's quite frankly the best. In the world of the starliner-turned-capital ship, it's the Saville Row diving suit, the Rolls-Royce Aquaflyer, the Chataeu la Squid 1945. It is the starliner-turned-capital ship Harrods would sell you! What more need I say?"
"If it seems too long, will it ride up with wear?"
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
—29th Scroll, 6th Verse of Ape Law
"Indelible in the hippocampus is the laughter. The uproarious laughter between the two, and their having fun at my expense.”
---Doctor Christine Blasey-Ford

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Re: Something big

Post by PhoenixKnig » 2018-07-22 10:39am

"Does it come in sea grey"
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Re: Something big

Post by Knife » 2018-07-22 12:17pm

Elheru Aran wrote:
2018-07-19 06:08pm
Crazedwraith wrote:
2018-07-19 04:47pm
I mean the available information is "they converted their liners into warships". Literally. No if, no buts, no rumours or fake outs. That's canonically (as far as the old canon is concerned) what they did and they don't care if you think it makes engineering sense or not.
Still, it's technically true if they built some warships that just happened to be dressed up real fancy, had a promenade inside, lots of servants, and were registered as liners... but once they got far enough out from the borders, all the passengers are cheerfully told they have to abandon ship, the crap is tossed overboard, and suddenly the Alliance has a warship.
Gah, it is old legends and out. And I'm glad. One of the dumbest things ever written in the old cannon is the notion that each was it's own design and they were starlinners. It doesn't take much to find two Home One class ships at Endor, and multiple MC 80 and at least two Liberty type sub types. We also know from the prequels, Dac personel built a lot of Separatist ships as well.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red

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Re: Something big

Post by Weedle McHairybug » 2018-07-22 03:36pm

Knife wrote:
2018-07-22 12:17pm
Elheru Aran wrote:
2018-07-19 06:08pm
Crazedwraith wrote:
2018-07-19 04:47pm
I mean the available information is "they converted their liners into warships". Literally. No if, no buts, no rumours or fake outs. That's canonically (as far as the old canon is concerned) what they did and they don't care if you think it makes engineering sense or not.
Still, it's technically true if they built some warships that just happened to be dressed up real fancy, had a promenade inside, lots of servants, and were registered as liners... but once they got far enough out from the borders, all the passengers are cheerfully told they have to abandon ship, the crap is tossed overboard, and suddenly the Alliance has a warship.
Gah, it is old legends and out. And I'm glad. One of the dumbest things ever written in the old cannon is the notion that each was it's own design and they were starlinners. It doesn't take much to find two Home One class ships at Endor, and multiple MC 80 and at least two Liberty type sub types. We also know from the prequels, Dac personel built a lot of Separatist ships as well.
Eh, I don't know... them being starliners converted into warships DOES fit in with the Rebels being guerrillas, which is what Lucas had in mind when he wrote them (as he based them on the Vietcong, and the Empire on America).

Besides, I don't think the Prequels ever addressed Dac building starships, let alone Separatist ships. The Clone Wars TV show did, yes, but when I think of "Prequels", I think specifically of Episodes I-III.

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Re: Something big

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2018-07-22 04:16pm

The Malevolence and the Invisible Hand were both built by the Quarren.
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
—29th Scroll, 6th Verse of Ape Law
"Indelible in the hippocampus is the laughter. The uproarious laughter between the two, and their having fun at my expense.”
---Doctor Christine Blasey-Ford

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Re: Something big

Post by Weedle McHairybug » 2018-07-22 05:44pm

U.P. Cinnabar wrote:
2018-07-22 04:16pm
The Malevolence and the Invisible Hand were both built by the Quarren.
Well, okay, I'll give you the Invisible Hand, since that was in Episode III (though I'm not sure it was ever stated in any pre-The Clone Wars materials that Dac or the Quarren were responsible for the design), but I'm pretty sure the Malevolence was in The Clone Wars, not the Prequel Films.

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Re: Something big

Post by Patroklos » 2018-07-23 01:09am

Weedle McHairybug wrote:
2018-07-22 03:36pm
Eh, I don't know... them being starliners converted into warships DOES fit in with the Rebels being guerrillas, which is what Lucas had in mind when he wrote them (as he based them on the Vietcong, and the Empire on America).
Thematically sure, but in actual construction the Rebels and Empire do not resemble either party. The Rebels end up with all the best gear (in space, anyway) and we never see them use anything resembling guerrilla tactics in any of the movies before Rogue One.

So in this hardware discussion, when the Mon Cals can convert passanger liners into capital ships that beat the purpose built capital ships of the Empire in the only scene we see them encounter each other, the "plucky heros winning only via luck and skill" is undermined. Not only do the Rebels have better capital ships, they can convert second hand passenger liners into better capital ships too. In secret even! Its the same thing with X-wings when you realize they are not just out flying TIES that are materially equal or better than the hero pilot's kit. The X-wings are just better all around (shields, hyper drive, more armament, etc.). Its like F-15s vs MIG21s, with predicable results.

The only advantage the Empire is ever actually shown to have is mass. That's not a Vietnam analog where the US was by far technologically superior (and far more skilled using those tools than the handful of times the NVA showed up with conventional contemporary weapons and formations), and in fact were vastly outnumbered by the Viet Cong and NVA on the ground.

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Re: Something big

Post by Weedle McHairybug » 2018-07-23 08:44am

Patroklos wrote:
2018-07-23 01:09am
Weedle McHairybug wrote:
2018-07-22 03:36pm
Eh, I don't know... them being starliners converted into warships DOES fit in with the Rebels being guerrillas, which is what Lucas had in mind when he wrote them (as he based them on the Vietcong, and the Empire on America).
Thematically sure, but in actual construction the Rebels and Empire do not resemble either party. The Rebels end up with all the best gear (in space, anyway) and we never see them use anything resembling guerrilla tactics in any of the movies before Rogue One.

So in this hardware discussion, when the Mon Cals can convert passanger liners into capital ships that beat the purpose built capital ships of the Empire in the only scene we see them encounter each other, the "plucky heros winning only via luck and skill" is undermined. Not only do the Rebels have better capital ships, they can convert second hand passenger liners into better capital ships too. In secret even! Its the same thing with X-wings when you realize they are not just out flying TIES that are materially equal or better than the hero pilot's kit. The X-wings are just better all around (shields, hyper drive, more armament, etc.). Its like F-15s vs MIG21s, with predicable results.

The only advantage the Empire is ever actually shown to have is mass. That's not a Vietnam analog where the US was by far technologically superior (and far more skilled using those tools than the handful of times the NVA showed up with conventional contemporary weapons and formations), and in fact were vastly outnumbered by the Viet Cong and NVA on the ground.
I don't know about them having the best gear, to be honest. Most of their equipment was actually aging, and even the most recent weapons they had were implied to be inferior to a certain degree to the Imperial weaponry. And as far as the Mon Cal ships, again, the Vietcong managed to utilize various traps and most likely could convert cruise liners into battleships if they so desired (the entire POINT of being a guerrilla is using asymmetrical warfare to defeat the enemy, and what better way to do so than to convert a civilian ship into a battleship?). Let's also not forget that TIEs are even faster than X-Wings, enough that many of the guys at the Battle of Yavin in A New Hope literally couldn't shake them off, and some scenes indicated the TIEs actually could withstand glancing blasts. And they have actually used asymmetrical warfare in movies prior to Rogue One (the infamous ground battle portion of the Battle of Endor in Return of the Jedi is just one example. Another example was the Rebels using the harpoon and tow-cables of their speeders on the AT-ATs on Hoth in Empire Strikes Back.).

And honestly, I was NOT happy with Lucas's revelation that we were supposed to be the bad guys, or that the good guys were supposed to be the likes of the Vietcong (I'm far too aware of the horrific aspects of what they did, both during and after the Vietnam War). That's why I feel as though I MUST root for the Empire at this point.

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Re: Something big

Post by Patroklos » 2018-07-23 12:02pm

Weedle McHairybug wrote:
2018-07-23 08:44am
I don't know about them having the best gear, to be honest. Most of their equipment was actually aging, and even the most recent weapons they had were implied to be inferior to a certain degree to the Imperial weaponry.
Supposed to, yes. In actual practice we never see the Empire display a tech advantage. Whenever they win, its always mass that is both visually and thematically used to explain it (Devastator vs. Tanative, DS vs Alderaan, AT-ATs vs scrambling infantry). Whenever mass is even remotely equalized (X-wing vs TIE dogfights, Mon Cals vs ISDs at Endor) the Empire loses.

Mass losing to pluck is an ageless theme, but its not what is suggested in a Vietcong comparison because the US never used mass, they used tech. That yields higher volumes of bombs dropped and firepower concentrated, but the physical forces present were only a fraction of the US military, and a fraction of the physical forces the Vietcong and NVA had on hand as far as swinging dicks in theater. US forces were just more effective man for man, and that was tech (tactics and logistics are just tech of a different sort).
And as far as the Mon Cal ships, again, the Vietcong managed to utilize various traps and most likely could convert cruise liners into battleships if they so desired (the entire POINT of being a guerrilla is using asymmetrical warfare to defeat the enemy, and what better way to do so than to convert a civilian ship into a battleship?).
We never see the Rebels ever use a trap (surprise by itself is not a trap) or engage in guerrilla warfare in any of the movies until Rogue One, and even then the big finale battle did not. Its always conventional forces vs conventional forces, they are always outnumbered, and they always win despite this. The Vietcong experience in any analogous major engagement situation to Yavin or Endor or Hoth was to always situationally outnumber the US, use that mass to overwhelm local forces, accept and trade crushing casualties to their own forces for a spinable propaganda opportunity, and be beaten to near destruction whenever an analogous to Endor show of force was made (ie Hue City). The Vietcong only ever had something resembling a military victory when engaging in guerrilla warfare (not the same thing as asymmetric warfare), otherwise they were universally curb stomped.

Oh yeah, and terrorize the local population, not something we have seen SW delve into but a staple of groups the Rebels were apparently based on (I am not advocating this, but if you want a light heated good vs evil space opera you might not consciously model your heroes after a white washed Vietcong...).

Yavin, Hoth, Endor, and the new ones like Scarf or Starkiller are always the outnumbered Rebels, with their observably superior kit, fighting conventionally, and winning while doing it. Completely different.

Also, did you just suggest the Vietcong could have converted passenger liners to battleships?
Let's also not forget that TIEs are even faster than X-Wings, enough that many of the guys at the Battle of Yavin in A New Hope literally couldn't shake them off, and some scenes indicated the TIEs actually could withstand glancing blasts.
Whats the TIE vs Rebel small craft space victory ratio again? Do you think this will bolster your argument?
And they have actually used asymmetrical warfare in movies prior to Rogue One (the infamous ground battle portion of the Battle of Endor in Return of the Jedi is just one example.
I see you have switched entirely to asymmetrical from guerrilla, which is a better argument but Endor was still nothing more than a straight up no holds bar conventional slug fest with the Rebels outnumber the Imperials. I get that may satisfy a strict definition, but this isn't the Veitcong ambushing single squads of US infantry causing pinprick casualties over years, suffering dozens of times the casualties of their enemies in the process. These are simple straight up meeting engagements.
Another example was the Rebels using the harpoon and tow-cables of their speeders on the AT-ATs on Hoth in Empire Strikes Back.).
That has nothing to do with the term asymmetric or guerrilla. Hoth can only be considered asymmetric because of a mass argument, which again is the opposite of the Vietcong example.
And honestly, I was NOT happy with Lucas's revelation that we were supposed to be the bad guys, or that the good guys were supposed to be the likes of the Vietcong (I'm far too aware of the horrific aspects of what they did, both during and after the Vietnam War). That's why I feel as though I MUST root for the Empire at this point.
Its just mixed messaging, which is why sometimes its good not to see how the sausage is made. The Empire is obviously supposed to be the bad guys, and you should root against them. The lesson here is that whatever geo-political message Lucas wanted to make, he failed at it, and lucky he didn't ruin his fun space opera romp in the process.

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Re: Something big

Post by Weedle McHairybug » 2018-07-23 12:34pm

Patroklos wrote:
2018-07-23 12:02pm
Weedle McHairybug wrote:
2018-07-23 08:44am
I don't know about them having the best gear, to be honest. Most of their equipment was actually aging, and even the most recent weapons they had were implied to be inferior to a certain degree to the Imperial weaponry.
Supposed to, yes. In actual practice we never see the Empire display a tech advantage. Whenever they win, its always mass that is both visually and thematically used to explain it (Devastator vs. Tanative, DS vs Alderaan, AT-ATs vs scrambling infantry). Whenever mass is even remotely equalized (X-wing vs TIE dogfights, Mon Cals vs ISDs at Endor) the Empire loses.

Mass losing to pluck is an ageless theme, but its not what is suggested in a Vietcong comparison because the US never used mass, they used tech. That yields higher volumes of bombs dropped and firepower concentrated, but the physical forces present were only a fraction of the US military, and a fraction of the physical forces the Vietcong and NVA had on hand as far as swinging dicks in theater. US forces were just more effective man for man, and that was tech (tactics and logistics are just tech of a different sort).
And as far as the Mon Cal ships, again, the Vietcong managed to utilize various traps and most likely could convert cruise liners into battleships if they so desired (the entire POINT of being a guerrilla is using asymmetrical warfare to defeat the enemy, and what better way to do so than to convert a civilian ship into a battleship?).
We never see the Rebels ever use a trap (surprise by itself is not a trap) or engage in guerrilla warfare in any of the movies until Rogue One, and even then the big finale battle did not. Its always conventional forces vs conventional forces, they are always outnumbered, and they always win despite this. The Vietcong experience in any analogous major engagement situation to Yavin or Endor or Hoth was to always situationally outnumber the US, use that mass to overwhelm local forces, accept and trade crushing casualties to their own forces for a spinable propaganda opportunity, and be beaten to near destruction whenever an analogous to Endor show of force was made (ie Hue City). The Vietcong only ever had something resembling a military victory when engaging in guerrilla warfare (not the same thing as asymmetric warfare), otherwise they were universally curb stomped.

Oh yeah, and terrorize the local population, not something we have seen SW delve into but a staple of groups the Rebels were apparently based on (I am not advocating this, but if you want a light heated good vs evil space opera you might not consciously model your heroes after a white washed Vietcong...).

Yavin, Hoth, Endor, and the new ones like Scarf or Starkiller are always the outnumbered Rebels, with their observably superior kit, fighting conventionally, and winning while doing it. Completely different.

Also, did you just suggest the Vietcong could have converted passenger liners to battleships?
Let's also not forget that TIEs are even faster than X-Wings, enough that many of the guys at the Battle of Yavin in A New Hope literally couldn't shake them off, and some scenes indicated the TIEs actually could withstand glancing blasts.
Whats the TIE vs Rebel small craft space victory ratio again? Do you think this will bolster your argument?
And they have actually used asymmetrical warfare in movies prior to Rogue One (the infamous ground battle portion of the Battle of Endor in Return of the Jedi is just one example.
I see you have switched entirely to asymmetrical from guerrilla, which is a better argument but Endor was still nothing more than a straight up no holds bar conventional slug fest with the Rebels outnumber the Imperials. I get that may satisfy a strict definition, but this isn't the Veitcong ambushing single squads of US infantry causing pinprick casualties over years, suffering dozens of times the casualties of their enemies in the process. These are simple straight up meeting engagements.
Another example was the Rebels using the harpoon and tow-cables of their speeders on the AT-ATs on Hoth in Empire Strikes Back.).
That has nothing to do with the term asymmetric or guerrilla. Hoth can only be considered asymmetric because of a mass argument, which again is the opposite of the Vietcong example.
And honestly, I was NOT happy with Lucas's revelation that we were supposed to be the bad guys, or that the good guys were supposed to be the likes of the Vietcong (I'm far too aware of the horrific aspects of what they did, both during and after the Vietnam War). That's why I feel as though I MUST root for the Empire at this point.
Its just mixed messaging, which is why sometimes its good not to see how the sausage is made. The Empire is obviously supposed to be the bad guys, and you should root against them. The lesson here is that whatever geo-political message Lucas wanted to make, he failed at it, and lucky he didn't ruin his fun space opera romp in the process.
Actually, the TIEs mostly wiped out the Rebel squadrons (and it literally took a last-second save from Han Solo and a literal miracle for the DS-1 to blow up). If anything, what the Empire used during that time WAS tech, while if anything the Rebels used mass (since it was implied that the fighters they used at Yavin was all they could throw at them, while the Empire if anything didn't even bother to use the full extent of its forces [remember, it was only due to Vader that they even bothered to scramble any fighters at all]). And in Return of the Jedi, it was made clear in the novelization at least that that was the totality of the Rebel Forces that were being used at Endor, the full extent, while with the Empire, it's implied that this wasn't even the fullest extent of their forces.

And we DID see them use traps, or at least unorthodox strategies in battle. Last I checked, using a harpoon and tow-cable on Walkers is NOT an orthodox strategy. And it's certainly a possibility. Heck, in Metal Gear Solid V, the Diamond Dogs, which was little more than a PMC (not even a state army), managed to convert a Japanese whaling ship into a spy ship.

Unfortunately, in order for me to root for the Rebels currently, I have to do so knowing that I am effectively rooting for the Vietcong per what George Lucas said, and I have no intention of doing so especially knowing what they're truly like (and the books don't help, like Children of the Jedi, where Leia's flashback to the Liberation of Coruscant actually had it being written in a way that resembled the September Massacres or the October Surprise, even the French Reign of Terror). It's "pick my poison" in this case. And I'm already concerned that he if anything actually DID succeed at his geo-political message. Let's not forget that Hideo Kojima in Peace Walker actually managed to make Che Guevara seem like a decent guy even when in reality he was a horrible man who was nothing like what they described him as (failed to even mention the fact that he was pretty much responsible for Cuba nearly causing a nuclear war): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usYtK3d2ydk And that's effectively what Lucas did with the Vietcong through the Rebels and Ewoks.

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Crazedwraith
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Re: Something big

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-07-23 12:54pm

What is the context of those remarks? Even if the relative military postures of the empire/rebels is based, loosely, on the US and Veitcong that doesn't say that morally they are stand ins for each other as well.

Plus death of the author, who cares what they were based on. You can support the rebels without also being forced to support the VC that's a silly position you are forcing yourself into.
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fractalsponge1
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Re: Something big

Post by fractalsponge1 » 2018-07-23 01:02pm

Jesus wtf happened here.

Have some heavy frigate WIPs and get back to ship discussions:
http://fractalsponge.net/?p=3651

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Re: Something big

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-07-23 01:04pm

Acclaimator successor? Looking cool.
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Weedle McHairybug
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Re: Something big

Post by Weedle McHairybug » 2018-07-23 01:14pm

fractalsponge1 wrote:
2018-07-23 01:02pm
Jesus wtf happened here.

Have some heavy frigate WIPs and get back to ship discussions:
http://fractalsponge.net/?p=3651
Yeah, sorry about that. Initially people digressed to the Mon Cal designs and whether or not it was good that they were originally shipliners, then things cascaded when I pointed out that the cruise liner thing fit in with the Rebels being VC analogues in response to those who claimed it was a stupid idea.

And yeah, nice work regarding the second set of heavy frigate WIPs. Looks like a sister ship or successor to the Acclamator. Pretty good overall.
What is the context of those remarks? Even if the relative military postures of the empire/rebels is based, loosely, on the US and Veitcong that doesn't say that morally they are stand ins for each other as well.
Based on how Lucas mentioned in the 1973 draft for A New Hope that the Rebels (well, technically Aquillae, but still...) was basically North Vietnam and it was being invaded with the implication that America was the invader (and also indicated that the Empire was America by the time of 1983 and helmed by "Nixonian gangsters"), alongside how he said as late as last May that America needs to learn its lesson regarding Great Britain and Rome regarding Empires with the implication that we need to step down, he clearly thought that the Rebels and Empire were morally like the Vietcong and America at that time, respectively. That's all I can say on the matter, since we really should get back to the original topic. If you want to discuss the matter further, PM me.

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Re: Something big

Post by Patroklos » 2018-07-23 01:40pm

Weedle McHairybug wrote:
2018-07-23 12:34pm
Actually, the TIEs mostly wiped out the Rebel squadrons (and it literally took a last-second save from Han Solo and a literal miracle for the DS-1 to blow up). If anything, what the Empire used during that time WAS tech, while if anything the Rebels used mass (since it was implied that the fighters they used at Yavin was all they could throw at them, while the Empire if anything didn't even bother to use the full extent of its forces [remember, it was only due to Vader that they even bothered to scramble any fighters at all]).
Dude, the Empire had a Death Star, it was fucking advantage them mass x100000000000000ish.

And the fighter performance is not exactly useful straight up because the Rebels were intentionally exposing themselves uncharacteristically for a niche tactic (same goes for Vader, he was only vulnerable to Han because of those very specific circumstances). In straight up space fighter victories, fighter on fighter, the Rebels enjoyed a 2:1 victory rate.
And in Return of the Jedi, it was made clear in the novelization at least that that was the totality of the Rebel Forces that were being used at Endor, the full extent, while with the Empire, it's implied that this wasn't even the fullest extent of their forces.
1.) Who cares about the novelization, this conversation is about what Lucas wanted the theme of the movie to be.

2.) You are misunderstanding how to apply the power differential here. Sure, if we want to talk about the war all told, the fact that Rebels were using all of their forces is relevant. When we are talking about battlefield performance, which is what we saw on film, all that matters is the forces on hand visually. At Endor the the Empire had mass again because of the DS, but then we are told its essentially nuetralized by getting in with the SDs. Even then, the power differential is large but even though we are straight up told the situation is suicide by Ackbar the Rebels just waltz over push over the entire Imperial SD fleet without a hitch from what we see.

Its one of the most deflating sequences in film history in my opinion, it completely calls into question the threat the Imperials posed previous to that moment (not as bad as nWARS though, which undermines the villians from the get go) and again undermines the notion that the Rebels are some underdog tech wise. Their capital ship fleet, still outnumbered (or massed at least due to Executor), just closes with and wipes the floor with the enemy as if this was always a possibility. Ackbar's comments make it commical, as if they could have won the war whenever they wanted in between the DSs but they were just to stupid to know it.
And we DID see them use traps, or at least unorthodox strategies in battle.
Those two things are not automatically related to each other. There was no trap component to the tow lines.
Last I checked, using a harpoon and tow-cable on Walkers is NOT an orthodox strategy. And it's certainly a possibility. Heck, in Metal Gear Solid V, the Diamond Dogs, which was little more than a PMC (not even a state army), managed to convert a Japanese whaling ship into a spy ship.
So what? Every time someone uses imagination or situational advantage does not make it asymmetric or guerrilla.

And there is a world of difference between a civilian ship to spy ship than civilian ship to warship. Nothing about the functioning of a spy ship requires any impact to the basic structure or design or the underlying floaty bits. That's not the case for a warship. But again, if the Rebels can just convert a non-specifically designed ship into a battle winning battleship that can defeat what the Empire fields starting from scratch to build to that purpose, that just further negates the idea that the Empire has any sort of relevant tech edge. Quite the opposite actually, it shows they can't design worth a damn, bucause if they could they would just covert their own civilian ships instead of going to the expense of dedicated warships that lose to retrofitted pleasure craft.
Unfortunately, in order for me to root for the Rebels currently, I have to do so knowing that I am effectively rooting for the Vietcong per what George Lucas said, and I have no intention of doing so especially knowing what they're truly like (and the books don't help, like Children of the Jedi, where Leia's flashback to the Liberation of Coruscant actually had it being written in a way that resembled the September Massacres or the October Surprise, even the French Reign of Terror). It's "pick my poison" in this case. And I'm already concerned that he if anything actually DID succeed at his geo-political message. Let's not forget that Hideo Kojima in Peace Walker actually managed to make Che Guevara seem like a decent guy even when in reality he was a horrible man who was nothing like what they described him as (failed to even mention the fact that he was pretty much responsible for Cuba nearly causing a nuclear war): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usYtK3d2ydk And that's effectively what Lucas did with the Vietcong through the Rebels and Ewoks.
This just means Lucas was a stupid wannabe revolutionary with the rest of the hippies that similarly became capitalist cogs with two cars, timeshares and guitar in the attic they haven't touched in 30 years. If you didn't see the Vietcong in the Rebels when you watched it without the knowledge of Lucas's intended analogy then they are not there. It just speaks to a failure in film messaging on Lucas's part, the movie is still the same movie it was before. We are not talking about some clever hidden context we all just missed, there is nothing between the lines in this regard.

EDIT: Sorry FS, I didn't see your displeasure at the tangent, I'll stop.

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