Something big

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Crazedwraith
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Re: Something big

Post by Crazedwraith » 2017-12-30 11:35am

Certainly not a Saxonite portrayal of space combat to say the least. And apparently the Resistance ships came out with next to no fuel.
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Re: Something big

Post by fractalsponge1 » 2017-12-30 09:16pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
2017-12-30 11:35am
Certainly not a Saxonite portrayal of space combat to say the least. And apparently the Resistance ships came out with next to no fuel.
Who cares about Saxtonite? How the TLJ space scenes were set up has a long way to go to even making sense. It's like a long stern chase through a giant plothole.

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Re: Something big

Post by Crazedwraith » 2017-12-31 07:19am

fractalsponge1 wrote:
2017-12-30 09:16pm
Crazedwraith wrote:
2017-12-30 11:35am
Certainly not a Saxonite portrayal of space combat to say the least. And apparently the Resistance ships came out with next to no fuel.
Who cares about Saxtonite? How the TLJ space scenes were set up has a long way to go to even making sense. It's like a long stern chase through a giant plothole.
I apologise silly turn of phrase to use. You are quite right.
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Re: Something big

Post by evillejedi » 2017-12-31 03:56pm

wrong thread

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Re: Something big

Post by PhoenixKnig » 2018-01-07 02:21pm

Happy New Years
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Re: Something big

Post by Rhadamantus » 2018-01-07 03:04pm

Do you have any opinion on the hyperspace ram?
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Re: Something big

Post by fractalsponge1 » 2018-01-07 06:18pm

Artistically, it was one of the prettiest things ever in SW.

As to plot and tech, a few problems:
1) Why does Holdo have to stay on the ship? They have droids for a reason presumably? It cheapens the whole narrative sacrifice thing
2) Was this a particularly difficult maneuver? Why wasn't it tried against DS2? Why isn't this a standard tactic with droid-controlled ramships? Was Supremacy doing something stupid like not bothering to power up its primary shields because the cruiser couldn't shoot back? Old EU had Executor tanking several hits like that, but that's old EU and hyperspace transition is presumably weird enough to make things go either way, but it's another question mark for the space scenes in TLJ, which are already full of plotholes and arbitrary acts of plot.

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Re: Something big

Post by Weedle McHairybug » 2018-01-07 08:27pm

fractalsponge1 wrote:
2018-01-07 06:18pm
Artistically, it was one of the prettiest things ever in SW.

As to plot and tech, a few problems:
1) Why does Holdo have to stay on the ship? They have droids for a reason presumably? It cheapens the whole narrative sacrifice thing
2) Was this a particularly difficult maneuver? Why wasn't it tried against DS2? Why isn't this a standard tactic with droid-controlled ramships? Was Supremacy doing something stupid like not bothering to power up its primary shields because the cruiser couldn't shoot back? Old EU had Executor tanking several hits like that, but that's old EU and hyperspace transition is presumably weird enough to make things go either way, but it's another question mark for the space scenes in TLJ, which are already full of plotholes and arbitrary acts of plot.
Regarding the last point of criticism, supposedly, it was because the Supremacy's shielding was the same type used for Starkiller Base, aka the Death Star Ripoff from The Force Awakens. Quite honestly, that whole thing never made sense in either TFA or TLJ, since if deflector shields could allow for anything above light speed to pass on through, why didn't the Rebels just hyperspace inside the Death Star II's shields and take it out then and there instead of trying to deactivate the shield on Endor in ROTJ as you yourself pointed out? Not to mention for a successor group to the Empire in terms of ideology, it makes them actually look kind of pathetic, especially if the Empire could create deflector shields that could presumably prevent hyperspacing inside them.

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Re: Something big

Post by fractalsponge1 » 2018-01-07 11:16pm

ISD updates:

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Video render included.

Also:
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I fixed it for you. You're all welcome.

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Re: Something big

Post by Crossroads Inc. » 2018-01-08 12:27am

Oh WOW...
Are those "legit" Dual heavy Turbo laser turrets that can super fire straight ahead?
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Re: Something big

Post by PhoenixKnig » 2018-01-08 12:01pm

What is that single turret purpose. the one above the PD turrets
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Re: Something big

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2018-01-08 12:07pm

Weedle McHairybug wrote:
2018-01-07 08:27pm
fractalsponge1 wrote:
2018-01-07 06:18pm
Artistically, it was one of the prettiest things ever in SW.

As to plot and tech, a few problems:
1) Why does Holdo have to stay on the ship? They have droids for a reason presumably? It cheapens the whole narrative sacrifice thing
2) Was this a particularly difficult maneuver? Why wasn't it tried against DS2? Why isn't this a standard tactic with droid-controlled ramships? Was Supremacy doing something stupid like not bothering to power up its primary shields because the cruiser couldn't shoot back? Old EU had Executor tanking several hits like that, but that's old EU and hyperspace transition is presumably weird enough to make things go either way, but it's another question mark for the space scenes in TLJ, which are already full of plotholes and arbitrary acts of plot.
Regarding the last point of criticism, supposedly, it was because the Supremacy's shielding was the same type used for Starkiller Base, aka the Death Star Ripoff from The Force Awakens. Quite honestly, that whole thing never made sense in either TFA or TLJ, since if deflector shields could allow for anything above light speed to pass on through, why didn't the Rebels just hyperspace inside the Death Star II's shields and take it out then and there instead of trying to deactivate the shield on Endor in ROTJ as you yourself pointed out? Not to mention for a successor group to the Empire in terms of ideology, it makes them actually look kind of pathetic, especially if the Empire could create deflector shields that could presumably prevent hyperspacing inside them.
That criticism of "if it's possible why didn't they do it at Endor?" always strikes me as a bit odd, given that TFA expressly tells us that this is a crazy idea Han worked out in his post-Endor smuggling days - and it almost didn't work, resulting in a crash landing on Starkiller Base. It's entirely possible that it either never occurred to anyone or was simply not possible with the DS2 (being much smaller and having a smaller gap between shield and surface) or was not possible with the X-Wings and/or other hyperdrives in use by the Rebel fighters.
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Re: Something big

Post by Weedle McHairybug » 2018-01-08 12:47pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2018-01-08 12:07pm
Weedle McHairybug wrote:
2018-01-07 08:27pm
fractalsponge1 wrote:
2018-01-07 06:18pm
Artistically, it was one of the prettiest things ever in SW.

As to plot and tech, a few problems:
1) Why does Holdo have to stay on the ship? They have droids for a reason presumably? It cheapens the whole narrative sacrifice thing
2) Was this a particularly difficult maneuver? Why wasn't it tried against DS2? Why isn't this a standard tactic with droid-controlled ramships? Was Supremacy doing something stupid like not bothering to power up its primary shields because the cruiser couldn't shoot back? Old EU had Executor tanking several hits like that, but that's old EU and hyperspace transition is presumably weird enough to make things go either way, but it's another question mark for the space scenes in TLJ, which are already full of plotholes and arbitrary acts of plot.
Regarding the last point of criticism, supposedly, it was because the Supremacy's shielding was the same type used for Starkiller Base, aka the Death Star Ripoff from The Force Awakens. Quite honestly, that whole thing never made sense in either TFA or TLJ, since if deflector shields could allow for anything above light speed to pass on through, why didn't the Rebels just hyperspace inside the Death Star II's shields and take it out then and there instead of trying to deactivate the shield on Endor in ROTJ as you yourself pointed out? Not to mention for a successor group to the Empire in terms of ideology, it makes them actually look kind of pathetic, especially if the Empire could create deflector shields that could presumably prevent hyperspacing inside them.
That criticism of "if it's possible why didn't they do it at Endor?" always strikes me as a bit odd, given that TFA expressly tells us that this is a crazy idea Han worked out in his post-Endor smuggling days - and it almost didn't work, resulting in a crash landing on Starkiller Base. It's entirely possible that it either never occurred to anyone or was simply not possible with the DS2 (being much smaller and having a smaller gap between shield and surface) or was not possible with the X-Wings and/or other hyperdrives in use by the Rebel fighters.
Maybe, but on the other hand, going by my memory of the film, Han seemed a bit too confident that it would work, indicating that this was fairly common knowledge or something (Even in Return of the Jedi, Han was almost ready to abort the Endor mission when the Executor seemed to reject the proposal, and he was the one most confident that their feint would work). Besides, in The Last Jedi, Holdo certainly seemed to follow Han's example.

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Re: Something big

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2018-01-08 12:52pm

Han tends to be sure his plans will work, that's pretty much a defining trait of his.

As for Holdo following his example, well no shit, she'd just seen/been shown it could be done.
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Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
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Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

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Re: Something big

Post by Weedle McHairybug » 2018-01-08 01:26pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2018-01-08 12:52pm
Han tends to be sure his plans will work, that's pretty much a defining trait of his.

As for Holdo following his example, well no shit, she'd just seen/been shown it could be done.
Maybe so, but even ROTJ showed he had his limits (like I said, when it took too long for the Executor to respond to the plans, he verbally considered getting out as soon as possible).


As far as Holdo, technically, she neither had seen nor was she shown it could be done since she wasn't even present for Han's maneuver, either on D'Qar or on Starkiller Base.

Well, for the actual topic, gotta say, you're definitely getting work done there, Fractalsponge.

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Re: Something big

Post by Patroklos » 2018-01-09 10:36am

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2018-01-08 12:07pm
That criticism of "if it's possible why didn't they do it at Endor?" always strikes me as a bit odd, given that TFA expressly tells us that this is a crazy idea Han worked out in his post-Endor smuggling days - and it almost didn't work, resulting in a crash landing on Starkiller Base. It's entirely possible that it either never occurred to anyone or was simply not possible with the DS2 (being much smaller and having a smaller gap between shield and surface) or was not possible with the X-Wings and/or other hyperdrives in use by the Rebel fighters.
The thing is Han had to hit that gap because he didn't want to hit the object on the other side of it. If you want to hit the object on the other side of it, the gap is meaningless.

There are a lot of things to work out with the damage mechanisms here. First of all I don't think the correct read of this is that she entered and then exited hyperspace to avoid the shield. The timing of accelerating into and then out of a space only a few hundred kilometer wide at max makes Hans stunt look like 2+2 vs calculus, though I guess being able to observe the exist point when jumping should help. Also exiting out of hyperspace means all of the effects of a collision should be visible to us, but the damage displayed is peculiar for what should be a straight up kinetic impact. Additionally, if she exited inside of the Supremacy's shields then the various Resurgent SDs shields were not circumvented in the same fashion.

I think the appropriate interpretation that she just accelerated into light speed into the target, hit the target at the light speed mark (just before the hyper drive kicks in and boosts you into hyperspace),and the reason we see the damage as a slice with no shock wave releasing the expected energies given the relative size of the objects impacting at relativistic velocities is the matter from both the Raddus and the portions of the Supremacy she impacted are being dragged into hyperspace, along with the massive release of energy as those two masses interact.

The problem with this though that the cannon states the hyperdrive removes you from real space when you hit light speed which means that we are restricted to the impact being at sub c speeds. Unless matter in real space can interact with matter in hyperspace, which is not how I understand the canon material. If it can't, then we were just shown a relativistic weapon can tank the shields and armor of warship thousands of times its mass or more. Given SW routinely accelerates masses as small individual conveyances to hyperdrive engaging relativistic speeds at a whim, this means any old MF scale tramp freighter is now an Executor killing weapon.

Its the best I can do to explain something the writers put no thought into other than "it looks cool."

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Re: Something big

Post by fractalsponge1 » 2018-01-09 12:39pm

Patroklos wrote:
2018-01-09 10:36am
Its the best I can do to explain something the writers put no thought into other than "it looks cool."
I think this is 100% the reason why. And it looked very cool.

It might be rationalized as Holdo not actually having much expectation that it would do as much damage as it did. Perhaps Raddus hit just as the hyperdrive would've completely transitioned the ship's mass, and there was some [insert technobabble] reason for the reaction actually doing as much damage as it did. Very unlikely to be replicated but by [will of Force] the timings allowed some combination of KE and the cruiser's power systems letting go and interacting with realspace mass to work extremely well. Perhaps the same reasons that the Quaestor incident was not re-used as a WMD, apart from the capital (heh) assets required to do it.

As for MF masses doing it, presumably this tactic a) would not be likely to hit in precisely the correct timeframe, especially against a maneuvering target, and b) small ships/droid-manned warheads not have sufficient mass or hypermatter on board to cause the damage seen in TLJ. Obviously star cruisers that do have the mass and contained energy for this to be effective would be far too valuable to use in such a sacrificial manner regularly as well.

Setting aside why Holdo had to stay at all (they have DROIDS) she may have just realized that everyone was going to die unless she did something, anything, even if that was just largely splattering on the shields and disrupting their fire and targeting and letting the transports get out of effective range (once again, desperation, so let's set aside the possibility of all those missing fighters to chasing them down anyway). The cruiser was useless at that point regardless, and she was prepared to sacrifice herself regardless (perhaps in exactly the way she did in the movie but only at the absolute last minute), but just moved it forward and by dumb luck it managed to be a lot more spectacular than anyone had a right to expect.

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Re: Something big

Post by Vympel » 2018-01-10 01:05am

Weedle McHairybug wrote:
2018-01-07 08:27pm
Regarding the last point of criticism, supposedly, it was because the Supremacy's shielding was the same type used for Starkiller Base, aka the Death Star Ripoff from The Force Awakens. Quite honestly, that whole thing never made sense in either TFA or TLJ, since if deflector shields could allow for anything above light speed to pass on through, why didn't the Rebels just hyperspace inside the Death Star II's shields and take it out then and there instead of trying to deactivate the shield on Endor in ROTJ as you yourself pointed out?
No sources says that the Supremacy has the same type of shields as Starkiller Base AFAIK. Starkiller Base's shield is described as 'fractional' in the novel because it's a planetary shield - the Death Star II shield is a lot smaller, there's no reason to assume its not solid.

Besides, there's obviously lots of different shield tech in Star Wars. Take Scarif's planetary shield - was it fractional refresh? You can actually see that shield and it has a gate that's held open by physical 'prongs' in the gate.
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Re: Something big

Post by InsaneTD » 2018-01-10 09:06am

Re: Falcon jumping under shields; The legacy lore has "mass shadows" (gravity basically) really screwing with things in hyperspace. Supposedly some of the mods Han had made to the Falcon allowed it to avoid or distort space so it could run deeper into gravity wells then pretty much anything else. Disney might be bringing parts of that old lore back.

Re: Holdo; Captain always goes down with the ship would be my read of it.

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Re: Something big

Post by fractalsponge1 » 2018-01-10 12:18pm

InsaneTD wrote:
2018-01-10 09:06am
Re: Holdo; Captain always goes down with the ship would be my read of it.
BS - she's an experienced commander and if there are about 400 Resistance left she'd be a non-trivial percentage of the total. Send a droid.

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Re: Something big

Post by CetaMan » 2018-01-10 04:09pm

Maybe shielding tech significantly changes, we see bubble-style shields on the resistance vessels rather then hull-hugging. Perhaps they are for a better shield strength when trading at extreme range or provide some other advantage, but also have the disadvantage of allowing fighters and other small-craft get closer to the hull, under the shields where they can do damage - IE the (really not) Mandator-IV destruction. Perhaps the FTL shield trick works because of the changed dynamics, or requires a specially tuned and expensive hyperdrive, or is an advancement of the weird hyperspace tech used for starkiller.

Speculation because there was no reasonable though put into the creation...

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Re: Something big

Post by Rhadamantus » 2018-01-10 04:18pm

The Raddus impact was plenty energetic, the main question is how they generated the energy to do so.
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Re: Something big

Post by Commander Veers » 2018-01-10 07:12pm

Anyone made a guess at the mass of the Raddus?
If, as Rhadamantus guessed, (viewtopic.php?p=4033632#p4033632) the Supremacy had an output of 5E28-1E29 then it really should have tanked it. If ISD is 40,000,000 tons (disputable really, but that's another matter), Raddus should be between 100-200MT.
Image
At light speed, that's 1.8e27 joules - Supremacy can tank between 9-18 of these hits if 1/3 of its energy is diverted to shields. Why is Krennic panicking, besides the fact that they made a sissy of his character in TLJ...? Their response should have been a smug chuckle and cracking out the champers!

Cheers chaps! That's the end of this insignificant rebellion!
Image

As has been suggested, it can only be explained as piss poor planning or some kind of hyperspace/realspace babble. Or, maybe, it's some shield limitation (whether general or specific to this ship) whereby not enough power could be diverted to the impact zone quickly enough (took 13 microseconds for the ship's full length to impact against the shields)

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Re: Something big

Post by Commander Veers » 2018-01-10 09:36pm

Commander Veers wrote:
2018-01-10 07:12pm
Krennic
*Hux

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Re: Something big

Post by evillejedi » 2018-01-10 10:23pm

Fractal, amazing Job as ever.

I would never have the patience to not make the details symmetrical. Which brings up the question of why weaponry would be asymetrical, (other than not needing the detail for filming angles) It's just something that has always bothered me that a line warship has that amount of variability

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