Something big

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Galvatron
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Re: Something big

Postby Galvatron » 2017-03-01 10:55am

Crossroads Inc. wrote:That actually makes sense to a certain degree. Both the Dreadnought and Carrack seemed like ships one could get on the "grey" market. Also both are from pre Imperial times and most like could found in "surplus".

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe WEG based the Dreadnaught on one of the anonymous cruisers that was spotted among the rebel fleet before they all jumped to Endor. I also remember being surprised to discover that the Nebulon-B frigate was primarily used by the Empire as well (according to the old EU).


Would you even be allowed to tell us if you were working for LFL? :)

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Re: Something big

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2017-03-01 11:11am



I love the mean-looking island-superstructure of death. I think there's too many engine nozzles on the rear end though...
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Re: Something big

Postby Galvatron » 2017-03-01 11:25am

Here's the only glimpse of what became the Dreadnaught in ROTJ:

Image

I wonder what that other ship to the upper-left of it is supposed to be.

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Re: Something big

Postby FTeik » 2017-03-01 04:17pm

Why is it so hard to believe, that the makers of an RPG can have a subversive side?
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Re: Something big

Postby Weedle McHairybug » 2017-03-01 04:22pm

FTeik wrote:Why is it so hard to believe, that the makers of an RPG can have a subversive side?


Well, if their work is geared towards children, it would most likely land them in pretty big legal trouble, for starters.

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Re: Something big

Postby Pelranius » 2017-03-01 11:05pm

Galvatron wrote:Here's the only glimpse of what became the Dreadnaught in ROTJ:

Image

I wonder what that other ship to the upper-left of it is supposed to be.


Wasn't that identified (at least in the old EU) as a Dornean (sp?) gunship?
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Re: Something big

Postby fractalsponge1 » 2017-03-02 01:13am

Galvatron wrote:Would you even be allowed to tell us if you were working for LFL? :)


Well, I don't, so that's easy :)

Going with Legator-class for this one:

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Re: Something big

Postby darthscott » 2017-03-04 12:07am

fractalsponge1 wrote:
Galvatron wrote:Would you even be allowed to tell us if you were working for LFL? :)


Well, I don't, so that's easy :)


That is a shame, because if it were the case, I think we would end up with one of the best starship battles of all time :)

Great work as always, a wonderful addition to your fleet

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Re: Something big

Postby Weedle McHairybug » 2017-03-05 03:10pm

Pretty good job with the Legator-class. Keep up the good work.

BTW, when you have the time available, think you can do renders for the Eye of Palpatine superdreadnought? After all, we did fairly recently get an image showing what it looks like in that Death Star technical manual:

Image

Just when you have the time to spare, since I imagine you're already busy with finishing the Ground Support Vehicle and possibly the Inexpugnable-class Command Ship, at the very least.

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Re: Something big

Postby fractalsponge1 » 2017-03-05 06:53pm

Weedle McHairybug wrote:Image


WTF is that? ... Let's say I'm not really keen on it.

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Re: Something big

Postby Weedle McHairybug » 2017-03-05 07:34pm

fractalsponge1 wrote:
Weedle McHairybug wrote:Image


WTF is that? ... Let's say I'm not really keen on it.


Oh, ah, it was the asteroid-like automated superdreadnought that Palpatine sent to wipe out the hiding spot of the Children of the Jedi at the Plawal Rift in a black op, which would have brought Stormtroopers to the place and shot them up (which never happened thanks to Callista Ming sabotaging the AI network, known as the Will). It was central to the Legends EU book Children of the Jedi. It never actually got any schematics or direct pictures until the 2013 Death Star Owner's Technical Manual, though. If you don't wish to do it, fine by me.

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Re: Something big

Postby evillejedi » 2017-03-07 12:47am

based on AOTC one Baradium charge should be enough to crack that ........................................... wait for it ........................................................................................BWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

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Re: Something big

Postby Weedle McHairybug » 2017-03-07 09:51am

evillejedi wrote:based on AOTC one Baradium charge should be enough to crack that ........................................... wait for it ........................................................................................BWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

Yeah, I'm not sure the Eye of Palpatine would have succumbed to a Void-8 (otherwise, Callista Ming wouldn't have needed to shut down the Will computer to stop it, all she and Geith Eris needed to do was use a Void-8 to rip it apart from within). It may have the appearance of an asteroid, but that didn't mean it was one. It was first and foremost a starship.

But I'll admit that maybe the design was a bit stupid...

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Re: Something big

Postby Galvatron » 2017-03-07 12:00pm

Ansel should totally waste his time modeling that.

But not before taking on the torpedo sphere.

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Re: Something big

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2017-03-07 01:40pm

That Eye of Palpatine thing looks so shit. I bet Ansel is totally judging whoever thought of bringing it up in this thread.
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Re: Something big

Postby Galvatron » 2017-03-07 02:13pm

On the other hand, it might look bad ass after receiving a fractalsponge1 makeover.

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Re: Something big

Postby Weedle McHairybug » 2017-03-07 02:33pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:That Eye of Palpatine thing looks so shit. I bet Ansel is totally judging whoever thought of bringing it up in this thread.


Guess you can blame me for bringing it up. Thought like it was a good idea at the time.

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Re: Something big

Postby fractalsponge1 » 2017-03-07 06:04pm

New 150m corvette:
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Legator detail sections:
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Customs corvette re-renders:
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Re: Something big

Postby fractalsponge1 » 2017-03-07 06:06pm

Very long design post for light corvette:

The gap between smaller ships like corvettes and star destroyers is predictably huge - after all we are talking about over a thousand fold difference in volume. This makes it difficult to rationalize small ship performance in ways that don't require character shields as such. So when designing this, I had to do some numbers for the frigate and lesser ships.

We have dissipation and reactor numbers from ICS, but not total shield load. For the sake of a starting point, let's say a normal warship can take roughly 10s of its own maximum reactor power dumped into the shield "buffer" before failure of the system, assuming no dissipation (with 1/3 maximum reactor power in dissipation, it'd take 15s to failure). This is assuming 100% hits at maximum power from an identical ship - at a 33% hit rate we're looking at stalemate. 15s of maximum power means 15 full broadsides (1/s) delivered to guaranteed kill (barring local shield panel overloads). The buffer provided by shields and dissipation from shields needs to be long enough for a target ship to react, otherwise ships die really really really damn fast in even duels, which is not something we usually see in SW. But we do know ships are supposed to be fairly dangerous to each other, so this sounds like a reasonable level of relative lethality to shoot for, in a ship not optimized for maximum relative survival; for a ship that IS, take the AOTC Nubian barge that can dissipate 2x its reactor output in shield heat. I'd expect Mon Cal ships (by reputation) to dissipate heat on the order of maximum power, which would give the 1.2km versions durability parity with ISDs dissipating at 35%, but not really weapons parity.

The problem is when we get to scaling for mismatches. Scale so a small ship can too easily survive a bigger one's secondary battery hit (basically increasing total shield load), and it will become totally indestructible against ships its own size. Scale too little and a large ship can kill a small one by accident with its point defense (you *would* expect a big ship to be able to use its main battery to casually annihilate a much smaller ship).

Going by the corvette:LTL :: frigate:MTL :: destroyer+:HTL comparison, from a tactical perspective, it seems like you'd want a normal corvette to roughly be able to take an MTL hit (200GT) and not melt immediately - maybe lose almost all shielding and be kicked sideways like an empty can, but *alive* to try and run away. So, assuming shield load at 10s of reactor power, here are the numbers based on surviving 1 hit of:

Hit Shield load Inferred reactor power Inferred shield dissipation
1x6MT laser cannon 2.5e16J 2.5e15W 8.8e15W
1x500MT LTL 2.1e18J 2.1e17W 7.4e16W
1x200GT MTL 8.4e20J 8.4e19W 2.9e18W
1x40TT HTL 1.7e23J 1.7e22W 6.0e21W

So, a 150m corvette to warship standards should be targeting a ~1e20W reactor. Note a ship able to take 1 40TT HTL hit and keep going is at 1.7e22W inferred reactor power, or a Velox, which I aimed to plausibly generate 2e22W (yay consistency). Scaling down from there, a Vigil should generate something like ...5e21W.

So, next question is how to scale the reactors appropriately, such that the power matches the aims above and is consistent with available data. At the same power density as an ISD, one would expect an ISD-proportioned ship at corvette size (~150m) to be outputting roughly 1e22W. This smells like bullshit, since Acclamators at 700+m are only 20x more than this (yes, Acclamators are probably de-tuned from a full warship, but it is a hard data point). From the lower end, scaling to the AOTC Nubian barge (assuming the front half of each nacelle is reactor, say a 10m x4.5m diameter cylinder), yields roughly 630 cubic meters, or roughly 1/13000th ISD power (1.9e21W, vs actual performance of 3e18W, or 600x more than actual, but it is basically a transport, not a warship). Moving up the scale, Munificents at a very skeletal 825m yields 2e23W - whereas from a pure "fit largest possible reactor in hull" would yield ~5-6e23W as a predicted power point. Of course a Munificent actually has smaller dual reactors compared to a single large reactor so power density may actually be similar to that of an ISD. It may not even be able to mount a big one given that it is such a skeletal design.

It seems like the sub-destroyer designs are generating much less power than hypothetically possible on the hull form. Why? Certainly this could be due to emphasis on something other than power generation, but that seems a bit daft design-wise - warships should maximize power whenever possible. Another possibility is due to poorer efficiency for hypermatter reactors at small volumes.

This suggests If you physically can mount a big reactor, that increases your power-to-weight. All this combines to drive high performance combat ship design towards low surface area high volume configurations, to maximize reactor and minimize the area (and thus increase the relative strength) of shielding.

One estimate I've seen has Tantive taking 30-ish hits from Devastator to shield failure over ~20-30s. I think these ISD guns are not likely to be gigaton scale weapons; no documentary evidence from models or other sources exist for Acclamator-sized guns on an ISD, and the teraton-scale heavy guns did not bear during the chase, generally speaking. If the light guns are 6 megaton lasers from Acclamator, then you have a pretty unimpressive total shield load for the CR90, with dissipation at most unable to stop ~300MT/s (1.2e18W dissipation, which assuming Acclamator performance suggests reactor power on the order of 4e18W). This ship is performing at the same level as a 40m yacht (using the barge numbers would actually depress potential reactor capability on the CR90, as the Nubian ship prioritizes dissipation over total power). Not a good look for what seems to be a fairly ubiquitous small warship, even if one that may be largely civilian-spec.

Let's assume then that the 6MT Acclamator weapons are actually just "laser canon" in warship terms (the ICS doesn't actually call them turbolasers). What would a real LTL look like? HTL -> MTL scaling suggests about a 200-1000 fold difference in weapon classes (assuming an ISDII mounts 40TT guns). Given 200GT MTL as standard, LTL would start picking up just beneath gigaton scale. If we assume 500MT as a normal anti-ship LTL (as opposed to a self-defense laser), then the CR90 starts looking much more attractive - dissipation would rise to 1e20W, and reactor scales now to ~3e20W. Much more respectable, and roughly in line with scaling from the Naboo ship. Obviously there are many fudge factors in this calculation - Tantive could've taken many more hits, ISD light weapons could be gigaton scale, etc.

The CR90 though is essentially a very narrow tube. That dramatically restricts the potential reactor volume for the length. But a value between the two extremes (4e18W - 3e20W) would settle down at just surviving 1 200GT MTL hit, so roughly 1e20W. The new ship has a much fuller hull form for the length, so there should be little problem mounting a much bigger reactor. The new light corvette scaled further should generate less than 1e21W, so hypothetically 5e20W.

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Re: Something big

Postby Commander Veers » 2017-03-09 03:25pm

Liking the Legator a lot, the level of detail is markedly higher than previous ships, it seems. Lots of windows too :) . Those big domes must be like 100m across... Scanner range for [light]days.

I'm glad you bought up power density because I've been pondering over it too. As to your main line of enquiry, perhaps power efficiency reduces as reactor volume increases? Can't think of any canon support for that possibility though... Besides the fact that we don't see much of Corvettes being 1-shotted by larger ships.

I don't know if you use the cross sections as references, but the Tantive IV's reactor is in full view here: http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/origi ... b50103.jpg Looks like a pretty small (13-15m diameter, going by ICS) semi-sphere connected to those coils which are presumably a 'power converter'-type thing (a la 3 and 4 in the Death Star elevation plan here: http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/sta ... 1105191248 )
(Basically I don't think those coil things are actual reactor space, but subsidiary power generation equipment.)

So I would put volume at only 883 cubic metres. Very small indeed. Much smaller than the ISD's volume (what is that, btw?)

Do you have a figure for how many watts per cubic metre of reactor volume? This is what I was wondering, as I've been trying to figure out the ISD's volume so I can give the Fulgor a sensibly-sized reactor. I've decided to maximise the space, and given it a reactor which might be overkill: Image
It's ~1.15e6m3, which I hope is significantly smaller than that of an ISD. I went by your figure of ~380 ISDs being on par with a single Assertor, whose main reactor is (iirc) 1600m in diameter and a full sphere (2.42e9), which makes the ISD's primary reactor (assuming they all have the same primary:secondary reactor volume ratio) 6.3e6. That makes the Fulgor about 18% as powerful as an ISD, which seems about right, wouldn't you say? I know it doesn't bare direct relevance to your thoughts about corvettes, I've just been wondering.

Returning to the corvette question, perhaps weapon accuracy is the key. Perhaps your calculations are right, and corvettes simply are super soft compared to larger ships - but they use their superior speed and much smaller size (as well as their ECM) to stay well out of the way of larger ships in normal engagements. Going by some other discussions on SD.net, as well as the ICS (DBY-827's 10 light-minute range), perhaps corvettes just completely avoid destroyers under normal circumstances. It would be pretty tough to target a 150m target moving at 0.1c at a range of several light minutes lol.

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Re: Something big

Postby Rhadamantus » 2017-03-10 09:57am

Commander Veers wrote:
Returning to the corvette question, perhaps weapon accuracy is the key. Perhaps your calculations are right, and corvettes simply are super soft compared to larger ships - but they use their superior speed and much smaller size (as well as their ECM) to stay well out of the way of larger ships in normal engagements. Going by some other discussions on SD.net, as well as the ICS (DBY-827's 10 light-minute range), perhaps corvettes just completely avoid destroyers under normal circumstances. It would be pretty tough to target a 150m target moving at 0.1c at a range of several light minutes lol.


Effective range definitely goes down as size reduces. An ISD (1600m) jinking at 3800g can move its entire radius in .29 seconds. A 150m corvette can do so in .09 seconds. An assertor (15 km), would need .9 seconds.
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Re: Something big

Postby Commander Veers » 2017-03-11 01:31pm

Rhadamantus wrote:Effective range definitely goes down as size reduces. An ISD (1600m) jinking at 3800g can move its entire radius in .29 seconds. A 150m corvette can do so in .09 seconds. An assertor (15 km), would need .9 seconds.


Amazing
Makes one wonder why they didn't do that in Rogue One, to avoid the 'hammerhead treatment'...

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Re: Something big

Postby Elheru Aran » 2017-03-11 02:06pm

Commander Veers wrote:
Rhadamantus wrote:Effective range definitely goes down as size reduces. An ISD (1600m) jinking at 3800g can move its entire radius in .29 seconds. A 150m corvette can do so in .09 seconds. An assertor (15 km), would need .9 seconds.


Amazing
Makes one wonder why they didn't do that in Rogue One, to avoid the 'hammerhead treatment'...


IIRC as has been noted elsewhere, the ISD that got rammed in Rogue One was the one that got disabled by ion torpedoes.
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Re: Something big

Postby Rhadamantus » 2017-03-11 10:23pm

Elheru Aran wrote:
Commander Veers wrote:
Rhadamantus wrote:Effective range definitely goes down as size reduces. An ISD (1600m) jinking at 3800g can move its entire radius in .29 seconds. A 150m corvette can do so in .09 seconds. An assertor (15 km), would need .9 seconds.


Amazing
Makes one wonder why they didn't do that in Rogue One, to avoid the 'hammerhead treatment'...


IIRC as has been noted elsewhere, the ISD that got rammed in Rogue One was the one that got disabled by ion torpedoes.

Plus, those numbers are different from the actual ones, because an ISD can't use all of it's engine power laterally.
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Re: Something big

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2017-03-12 04:38am

The non-ion torpedoed ISD that got hit by the other ISD... the commander might have not had the wherewithal to make such a sudden maneuver... and who knows, doing so might've exposed parts of the ISD that had unfocused shields.
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