Something big

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Abacus
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Re: Something big

Post by Abacus »

I will hear out complaints and comments.
I'd say that you're guestimations are correct for this type of vessel. Appropriate if nothing else.

That said I have to say that I like the look of her. I like the mimicry of the Acclamator hull. As far as missiles are concerned, I don't think that this vessel would require anything more than, if at all, four to six tubes with two to four missiles/torpedoes. In regards to the ion cannon, it should be made clearer as to what role this vessel would play. If its meant solely for destroying targets, then an Ion cannon would be more in line with a customs vessel, out to disarm and board suspect ships. I think keeping its main armament to laser cannon is preferable.

Any plans to adding ventral armaments? Such as a few barrette light-medium laser cannon mounts?
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Re: Something big

Post by Raesene »

fractalsponge1 wrote:Well an Immobilizer's module is probably too big for this ship, but it'll be a smaller variant thereof. I might yet decide to try playing with the Acclamator module setup too, I haven't decided about the bridge yet.

As for the turrets, the flank turrets will stay, definitely, if only because I don't want to redo the plating. More than one on each flank would be overkill, I think (aesthetically, not technically). I might move the centerline one elsewhere, though, or make it ventral. The ball turret ion might be an idea, though. Missiles; we'll see - might not be the space, or it'll be too small a volley to be worthwhile.

The TIE hangar is ventral currently, in the spine space. My plan was to keep the antiship armament dorsal, thus obviating any need to keep in alpha arc and allowing greater freedom of maneuver, as well as simplifying the division between ship combat and flight ops from a rather cramped space. I seriously have no idea cramped the Marauder's TIE squadron must be; with racks alone the ventral side of the primary hull mostly be taken up by fighters, not counting any maintenance space/missile magazines. Possibly even more of a problem with the CR90, which handles fighters in the games, at least, though there is a decent amount of volume in the hexagonal center hull.

Anyway, for the hangar of this ship, I was planning two abreast storage, wingtip to wingtip on racks, with access from above, and dropping out from a ventral hatch. Access from the sides for some level of on-site maintenance, with two slots open for cycling fighters. Ingress from a recess centerline, tractor assisted of course, to cycle into the rack system. The troop transport and loading bay will be aft of that, exiting and entering via the same recess.
The Acclamator-bridge setup is ugly :-)

Have you tried adding the wing point defense guns parallel to vertical plane through the ship instead of to the horizontal one ? Would provide good field of fire and reduce the number of guns required.
I' can see this ship being used similar to a torpedo boat, that's why I asked about torpedo/missile tubes. A quick strike against a weakened shield... :-)

I dislike small ships with pure laser armaments - they are fast enough to be used as interception/capture vessels, and should carry an armament that can also fulfil this role if necessary.

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Re: Something big

Post by fractalsponge1 »

I've played with the area-defense guns mounted vertically, but you trade better flank coverage for worse dorsal coverage. I'm imagining that this ship would, in most engagements, be stunting wildly, and it's probably easier to have the dorsal face be the optimal arc. That would mask the fighter bay as well, and possibly allow for easier and safer combat launches. Better then perhaps to keep a few dedicated guns ventral, and have most of the gun armament dorsal.

As for ion cannon, I was thinking: the Customs Corvette, which is about as interception oriented as you can get, has no ion weaponry at all. The Sienar Guardian and system patrol craft small boats don't either, and barely carry a boarding outfit to boot. Live fire to disable? It might be a simple trade off given a reduced power budget; to carry enough ion cannon to make a difference against ships, you compromise the rest of the armament and the resultant need for more mounts and more guns thus push the overall cost or space/power use past what is easy to accommodate on small utility hulls. This ship I envision as being more an all-purpose light fleet ship, so scouting, escort, anti fighter and anti-corvette sweeps, and patrol would be emphasized over customs duties (it might well be able to do the latter, but might be a bit overkill, and the lack of ion cannon doesn't seem to disturb Imperial Customs so much, given the ships in their OOB).

As for missile armaments; I'm fairly torn. I suppose it is a way for small combatants to punch above their own weight by power generation, but against point defense, what use is a small missile salvo? In a space-limited design, you'd want as much dual- or multi-purpose weaponry as possible. Keeping heavy warheads that might or might not ever be used doesn't seem very good for that, and would be a hard sell for a design meant to be produced in massive numbers, as most small ships would be. If you really need missiles, it might be best to load an air group that will carry them more flexibly anyway (and, in a sense, are the ultimate multi-purpose weapon for small combatants).

It raises an interesting question about missile armaments in general in SW; you don't see much of them as capital weapons. The VSDI was obviously a missile boat, but the VSDII dispensed with them for what was supposedly a more ship-to-ship oriented design. Venators and Acclamators had a very small possible missile volley. Executors supposedly had a lot of concussion tubes if you believe WEG, but you don't see them being used, and in a ship that big and expensive you can pretty much mount whatever you damn well please, even if you just felt like being perverse :P ISDs aren't really thought of has having significant missile armament. It might just be that turbolasers are that much more cost-effective and flexible.
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Re: Something big

Post by Abacus »

Raesene wrote:
The Acclamator-bridge setup is ugly :-)

Have you tried adding the wing point defense guns parallel to vertical plane through the ship instead of to the horizontal one ? Would provide good field of fire and reduce the number of guns required.
I' can see this ship being used similar to a torpedo boat, that's why I asked about torpedo/missile tubes. A quick strike against a weakened shield... :-)

I dislike small ships with pure laser armaments - they are fast enough to be used as interception/capture vessels, and should carry an armament that can also fulfil this role if necessary.
I think it would be a better analogue of a Carrack than a torpedo boat. Depends on what the final size is I suppose, but this also could be an upgrade from a ship like the Gladiator-class SD(?), at least in proportion of its armament and compliment of fighters.

PS - What's wrong with the Acclamator? It's...majestic...purty...and shiny!
fractalsponge1 wrote:It might just be that turbolasers are that much more cost-effective and flexible.
That would be my guess as well.
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Re: Something big

Post by Raesene »

Abacus wrote: [...]
I think it would be a better analogue of a Carrack than a torpedo boat. Depends on what the final size is I suppose, but this also could be an upgrade from a ship like the Gladiator-class SD(?), at least in proportion of its armament and compliment of fighters.

PS - What's wrong with the Acclamator? It's...majestic...purty...and shiny!
fractalsponge1 wrote:It might just be that turbolasers are that much more cost-effective and flexible.
That would be my guess as well.
Compared to a real Star Destroyer, the Carrack is the size of a torpedo boat ;-) A Gladiator-SD would be more than twice the size of the new corvette (~500m vs ~200m length).

I dislike the bridge setup of the prequel ships, purely on looks. It's sensible to show less area to an enemy in your alpha arc, but I prefer the looks of a proportionate wide bridge tower instead of a cylindrical command tube.

I'm still arguing for an ion cannon - if you have, say, two turbolasers and one ion cannon, the ion cannon can fire without regret at targets you want destroyed. The same is not true for turbolasers and targets you want to disable or capture.
And just like torpedo boats I'd expect these ships to be present and used in flotillas during major battles.

"In view of the circumstances, Britannia waives the rules."

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Re: Something big

Post by Ketan »

hi,

sorry about my bad english :wink:

ok we have a corvette 200m a small ship no destroyer Perhaps a gunship

something like
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:Mar ... _schem.jpg

all light and medium turboalaser are tooo big!I think 8 small turbolasers are enough

Please resize the outer arms
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Re: Something big

Post by fractalsponge1 »

If you look at the Marauder, you'll see a ship that is far smaller in volume terms, and if it operates its stated fighter complement, a lot more of its volume is going to be dedicated to aviation than this ship. Considering that, and using the assumptions and calculations I talked about earlier, this ship should be able to handle e21W level firepower weaponry.

I might change the dorsal centerline turret to light-medium ion equivalents of the flank guns, would that make you happy Raesene :P? No promises though, I might not be happy with the setup. That said, it really doesn't seem like imperial doctrine is going much towards ion fire for disable (ISDI to II transition, any of the modern customs designs, etc.).

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Re: Something big

Post by Raesene »

Absolutely ;-)

I can understand lack of Ion guns onboard a capital ship - who wants to board a Star Destroyer (except roleplayers, that is...:-)), but as argued above, I wouldn't trust lasers for interception duties. Perhaps the Empire works more along the idea of 'Surrender, or we will identify and maybe build a court case around your corpse and wreckage...' I think Captain Brandei thought like this when his Star Destroyer fought against Karrde's Smugglers at the Katana fleet battle.

Did you add some very light lasers (e.g. the three twin items to starboard of the conning tower stump) to the ship or are those clamps holding the hull armour plating in place?

"In view of the circumstances, Britannia waives the rules."

"All you have to do is to look at Northern Ireland, [...] to see how seriously the religious folks take "thou shall not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable." George Carlin

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Re: Something big

Post by Azron_Stoma »

What's the rate of fire on the small and large guns?

Regular turbolasers are something like 60 rpm right? based on on-screen rates of the Death Star guns in anh?
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Re: Something big

Post by fractalsponge1 »

I assume the rate of fire of a standard heavy turbolaser is 1 shot per second. For mediums, might well be higher, depending on role and design. Light turbolasers or cut down area defense guns could potentially be extremely rapid firing by power generation, but at least the rate of the Slave I's laser cannons is probably safe to say.

@Raesene

I think that stance on interception might well be the case.

The features you're talking about are clamps. There are two more twin light guns on the underside of the nose.
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Re: Something big

Post by fractalsponge1 »

On another note, for boarding star destroyers and better, it probably does happen (prizes at Endor, at least, suggest that). But it must be at least a brigade-level action, if not divisional. 37000 crew and 10000 troops will need a lot of putting down if they are really going to dig in. For bigger ships, Corps?

Though after the shields fall and the target has been immobilized by ion cannon, resistance to boarders is only going to be out of spite; the attackers can always just vaporize the target with HTL fire if surrender is refused. But holding out for reinforcements might be a viable option with the reaction speed of hyperdrive being what it is. Also a really big ship might simply be too valuable to simply destroy or give up in most cases.
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Re: Something big

Post by Grizzly 256 »

HI, im new to this board but i have been following your progress for about 6 months now, first, Fractal, AWESOME work mate, oh and BTW check your email. I would like to ask you though if i could help you work on these models, ther are some you have posted but have no details, just a basic model, I love your work and am planning to make a mod for Sins of a Solar Empire that includes every class of imperial ship i can find, i have been catalouging them for some time now, and would like to include yours, with permission of course. I have 3d studio max and was wondering if you have weapons, textures and other 'miscelanious' items that you could send me to aid in this effort, all credit to you of course. Im have just finished high school and am doing a gap year so i have plenty of time to fill, just think it over, OK?
BTW has anyone though about wether every stardestroyer carrys a division, or whatever, of every type of stormtrooper, snow, sand, aquatic, etc, etc or wether they are are multi trained and just carry round the specalist gear and weapons, any one give me an answer to this?
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Re: Something big

Post by Raesene »

fractalsponge1 wrote:On another note, for boarding star destroyers and better, it probably does happen (prizes at Endor, at least, suggest that). But it must be at least a brigade-level action, if not divisional. 37000 crew and 10000 troops will need a lot of putting down if they are really going to dig in. For bigger ships, Corps?

Though after the shields fall and the target has been immobilized by ion cannon, resistance to boarders is only going to be out of spite; the attackers can always just vaporize the target with HTL fire if surrender is refused. But holding out for reinforcements might be a viable option with the reaction speed of hyperdrive being what it is. Also a really big ship might simply be too valuable to simply destroy or give up in most cases.
Your second part is probably more to the point - I don't even want to imagine having to fight to take over a Star Destroyer or larger vessel against a crew fighting back. Ionise/damage the ship so that they want to surrender instead of being blown out, then get the ship into a dock for inspection/repair before using it yourself. In my opinion, defenders simply have more time to prepare nasty traps for any troops entering for a hostile takeover. Mopping up crew remnants is another story, that should be feasible after you've got the electronic keys to the vessel.

"In view of the circumstances, Britannia waives the rules."

"All you have to do is to look at Northern Ireland, [...] to see how seriously the religious folks take "thou shall not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable." George Carlin

"We need to make gay people live in fear again! What ever happened to the traditional family values of persecution and lies?" - Darth Wong
"The closet got full and some homosexuals may have escaped onto the internet?"- Stormbringer

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Re: Something big

Post by Abacus »

fractalsponge1 wrote:On another note, for boarding star destroyers and better, it probably does happen (prizes at Endor, at least, suggest that). But it must be at least a brigade-level action, if not divisional. 37000 crew and 10000 troops will need a lot of putting down if they are really going to dig in. For bigger ships, Corps?

Though after the shields fall and the target has been immobilized by ion cannon, resistance to boarders is only going to be out of spite; the attackers can always just vaporize the target with HTL fire if surrender is refused. But holding out for reinforcements might be a viable option with the reaction speed of hyperdrive being what it is. Also a really big ship might simply be too valuable to simply destroy or give up in most cases.
That's true. All I can say is that I would not want to be the luckless foot-slogging infantryman that has to take it over. Though apparently it was a fairly common practice in the Imperial fleet, as they have the Gamma-class Assault Shuttle and the Spiral-class Assault Ship. I can see the potential for making a surprise boarding, taking over the bridge, and taking control of it. Would be a nice maneuver in a large fleet battle, where the potential of a small, unobtrusive ship could make that kind of assault.
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Re: Something big

Post by fractalsponge1 »

Only assuming the bridge is the central point of all control like a ST ship, or a highly automated CIS ship, which is probably not going to be the case. Also, any shields being still up or the a still maneuvering target is still a recipe for boarding fail. Would probably cause massive chaos if it by some miracle succeeded in a fleet melee though.

Plenty of ships in the inventory for a proper attempt though; variants of the Gamma assault transport, Delta-class stormtrooper transport, lambda variants, tie boarding shuttles, etc. For assaulting a really big ship though, might be better off taking the hangar bay and bringing in landing barges; the manpower requirements are going to massively overwhelm those listed assault craft.
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Re: Something big

Post by Abacus »

fractalsponge1 wrote:Also, any shields being still up or the a still maneuvering target is still a recipe for boarding fail.
I'm not so sure about that. We have several examples of physical beings/droids/ships/missiles passing through SW shields on different occasions to make attacks, move through them, or otherwise bypass their field to execute some maneuver or attack. So seeing thingz in that light I don't believe that shields would be an obstacle for any ship attempting to attach onto the outside of a cap-ship.

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Re: Something big

Post by fractalsponge1 »

A battle droid walking through a shield is not the same thing as a shuttle trying to dock to a destroyer moving at triple-digit g. Anakin and Obi-wan certainly didn't seem like they expected to be able to just fly their fighters through the Invisible Hand's docking bay shields in ROTS. Particle shielding that doesn't actual stop an object wouldn't be much of a defense, would it?
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Re: Something big

Post by Abacus »

fractalsponge1 wrote:A battle droid walking through a shield is not the same thing as a shuttle trying to dock to a destroyer moving at triple-digit g. Anakin and Obi-wan certainly didn't seem like they expected to be able to just fly their fighters through the Invisible Hand's docking bay shields in ROTS. Particle shielding that doesn't actual stop an object wouldn't be much of a defense, would it?
Was simply making the observation. And I think there is a difference between shields holding back space, and shields meant to deflect turbolasers/missiles. Or else you would have unsuited crewers walking around the outside of the ship taking a stroll without any worries since the shields were up...
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Re: Something big

Post by Raesene »

FS, I had an idea when rereading your corvette-statement about being torn regarding the missile armament: why not use the hangar space as module frame similar to the strike cruisers (that is comparable to the Meko-concept)?
The basic ship structure stays the same, but mission-specific modules can be exchanged. This way, you can optimise a missile corvette escorting an Executor-class Star Dreadnought and waiting for targets of opportunity in a fleet battle to a comparably powerful system patrol corvette guarding a recently pacified system or a planetary invasion/fire support vessel with another module.

While the ship might not be a resilient combatant, the flexibility of the system might appeal to the fleet command bureaucrats.

"In view of the circumstances, Britannia waives the rules."

"All you have to do is to look at Northern Ireland, [...] to see how seriously the religious folks take "thou shall not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable." George Carlin

"We need to make gay people live in fear again! What ever happened to the traditional family values of persecution and lies?" - Darth Wong
"The closet got full and some homosexuals may have escaped onto the internet?"- Stormbringer

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Re: Something big

Post by fractalsponge1 »

That's a decent idea. I'll probably put some clamps and a few clear seams along the edges of the hangar "module." The back superstructure will remain as accommodations. Troop/transport storage probably the same either way.
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Re: Something big

Post by Raesene »

fractalsponge1 wrote:That's a decent idea. I'll probably put some clamps and a few clear seams along the edges of the hangar "module." The back superstructure will remain as accommodations. Troop/transport storage probably the same either way.
I'm looking forward to the pictures :-)

"In view of the circumstances, Britannia waives the rules."

"All you have to do is to look at Northern Ireland, [...] to see how seriously the religious folks take "thou shall not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable." George Carlin

"We need to make gay people live in fear again! What ever happened to the traditional family values of persecution and lies?" - Darth Wong
"The closet got full and some homosexuals may have escaped onto the internet?"- Stormbringer

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Re: Something big

Post by emp3ror86 »

Hello Guys,

I've been following Fractal's work over there at SFM but had I known the technical discussion is going on here, I would had come here already.

I agree with Raesene regarding the ion weaponry. And the module system is a bullseye!

Sorry if it is discussed already (I didn't notice it then), but are you going to place tractor beams on the corvette?
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Re: Something big

Post by Ketan »

hey,

in the last TCW episode it cames a new corvette on the new republic hands

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Re: Something big

Post by Azron_Stoma »

Looks like a cross between a miniaturized Acclamator and a Consular-class cruiser, or a CR-20. With extra bits on the brim and a different bridge design.
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Re: Something big

Post by Vympel »

It's more of a Venator / Consular cross than an Acclamator / Consular cross - it has some pretty large dorsal turrets.

It's too bad its debut was basically just as a sacrificial lamb. If there's one thing Clone Wars has shown, the Jedi really don't give two shits about their warships, they're simply disposable.
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