Something big

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Crossroads Inc.
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Re: Something big

Post by Crossroads Inc. » 2018-08-30 03:39pm

That...was Cringe worthy-ally bad...
I was expecting something funny bad...but that was just sad bad.

On another note, as we hit yet another page on this thread, I want to give renewed kudos, thanks, and appreciation to Fractal for not just his work, but for sharing it with us all as he works on it. SO many amazing ships, big and small, bricky and sleek.
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Re: Something big

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2018-08-30 03:59pm

That guy hasn't got a fucking clue has he.
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: Something big

Post by PhoenixKnig » 2018-08-30 05:06pm

Crossroads Inc. wrote:
2018-08-30 03:39pm
[Snip]
On another note, as we hit yet another page on this thread, I want to give renewed kudos, thanks, and appreciation to Fractal for not just his work, but for sharing it with us all as he works on it. SO many amazing ships, big and small, bricky and sleek.
I second that Thank you FS for displaying your talent to all of us to see
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Re: Something big

Post by Commander Veers » 2018-08-31 11:43am

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2018-08-30 03:59pm
That guy hasn't got a fucking clue has he.
Yeah that is sadly the case with Eckhart's Ladder. It's been over a year since he started his channel, he's done dozens of 'ship versus' videos, yet still hasn't taken the time to understand the relationships between length and volume, reactor size and power output, power output and combat effectiveness, and so on. I left a comment right when his channel was just starting up, on his first Executor vs. Assertor video explaining this but it was ignored, and since then he has made the same mistakes again and again. He even matches the MC90 up against the Allegiance in one of them, as if there's some kind of contest. Sadly, he like many others has drunk the canon kool-aid and as a result the videos are riddled with inaccuracies. The comments are pretty bad at some points, one person even called the Assertor the "Mary Sue" of Dreadnoughts :lol:.

This might seem a bit unrelated to the thread but he uses a lot of Fractal's images and canon designs for reference.
Crossroads Inc. wrote:
2018-08-30 03:39pm
On another note, as we hit yet another page on this thread, I want to give renewed kudos, thanks, and appreciation to Fractal for not just his work, but for sharing it with us all as he works on it. SO many amazing ships, big and small, bricky and sleek.
Hear hear, and on top of that all of the knowledge FS has imparted upon us. This has been a great thread; so many interesting discussions.

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Re: Something big

Post by fractalsponge1 » 2018-08-31 12:18pm

MC90 vs Allegiance - um, no. That won't work. MC90s are very fair opponents for ISDs and Tectors (possibly more than fair if they trade most of their hangars for reactor) but I just don't see it being a match for an Allegiance (at least my interpretation of Allegiance) unless it's a lot bigger than I think it is.

Mary Sue of dreadnoughts. Well, ok, here's the deal. Mary Sues are characters, things, that are amazing at everything by fiat. I think I've made reasonable tradeoffs to get Assertor to have a reasonable set of characteristics. Mostly it's all about trimming as much protected volume in terms of hangars and such as possible, fitting the most ridiculously large reactor possible for the hull form, and trading "good enough" acceleration for destroyer-leader acceleration on the Executor. Could I have been more circumspect about it? Sure. Is it unreasonable? I'd say no. For the record I think that it's well possible Sovereigns are basically Assertors in black in that sense, but we don't know enough about them to say for sure. But the idea that you are amazing at everything, or at least amazing at a number of things, is not actually a problem with ships, as long as it is justifiable in tradeoff terms. It's not about making a balanced game or something - you strive for maximum OP-ness/capability with minimum weakness on whatever your budget is. If it's the Galactic Empire, that budget cap may be moon-sized, so you just go for the first two.

I happen to think most of the New Republic/Rebel designs don't make sufficient tradeoffs to justify their described capabilities. I have no problem for instance with Nebulas being ISD equivalents, but not if they are 1km long and roughly on the same tech base and still have big Rebel fighters to maintain. I think as described the Nebula is actually the biggest high-end Mary Sue ship - all the stated capability, no drawbacks, and no volume for all of it without writer's fiat. On the other hand, a Viscount, which is basically a fat 17km Home One, is probably actually terrifying. I'd put that at easy Executor power, possibly approaching Assertor power depending on final proportions and layout, on a platform that's much tougher. A proper bruiser. Mediators, depending on what you actually think the size is (seems 8km or like 2km), then are either Bellator or Allegiance equivalents - again no real problem with that, because they have the size to make that capability plausible.

As an aside, I also have a huge problem with people that taken official word as absolute gospel and refuse to accept anything else. The 1.2km Home One bullshit ticks me off like few other things, because we have direct visual OT-film canon evidence that it's not that small. If we all went lemming-like along that path Executor would still be 8km.

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Re: Something big

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2018-08-31 12:49pm

The muppet also kept mentioning that the Assertors are meant to have spinal-superlaser weapons, but I joined this thread long after you'd finished the big beast. Is that correct?
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: Something big

Post by fractalsponge1 » 2018-08-31 01:58pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2018-08-31 12:49pm
The muppet also kept mentioning that the Assertors are meant to have spinal-superlaser weapons, but I joined this thread long after you'd finished the big beast. Is that correct?
It was designed that way yes, but you can see from the size it's not anything like Sovereign or Eclipse's weapons. More like a fast-recharging full-broadside like weapon, but concentrated into one beam. Conceptually it was also to have a huge capacitor bank that doubled as a heat/power surge sink for the main power grid.

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Re: Something big

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2018-08-31 01:59pm

So a heavy ship-killer rather than a planet-cracking weapon, gotcha.
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: Something big

Post by Rhadamantus » 2018-08-31 11:04pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2018-08-31 01:59pm
So a heavy ship-killer rather than a planet-cracking weapon, gotcha.
Well, it's apparently an exaton level blast, which from the boom table would blow off a planetary atmosphere, and vaporize the oceans. If it pounded away for an hour, it probably could crack a planet.
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Re: Something big

Post by Commander Veers » 2018-09-01 04:55pm

fractalsponge1 wrote:
2018-08-31 12:18pm
MC90 vs Allegiance - um, no. That won't work. MC90s are very fair opponents for ISDs and Tectors (possibly more than fair if they trade most of their hangars for reactor) but I just don't see it being a match for an Allegiance (at least my interpretation of Allegiance) unless it's a lot bigger than I think it is.
Yeah, MC90 is probably 1e25 if we're charitable. It would take 5-7 to scratch an Allegiance.
Mary Sue of dreadnoughts...
Exactly, it's a poor application of the term. It's like calling a battleship a "Mary Sue" because it's more powerful than a patrol boat.
I happen to think most of the New Republic/Rebel designs don't make sufficient tradeoffs to justify their described capabilities. I have no problem for instance with Nebulas being ISD equivalents, but not if they are 1km long and roughly on the same tech base and still have big Rebel fighters to maintain.
The Nebula's output (at its canon length) is probably 4.5 less than the ISD-II, and that's being generous.
https://i.imgur.com/s6q0fNi.jpg
On the other hand, a Viscount, which is basically a fat 17km Home One, is probably actually terrifying. I'd put that at easy Executor power, possibly approaching Assertor power depending on final proportions and layout, on a platform that's much tougher. A proper bruiser. Mediators, depending on what you actually think the size is (seems 8km or like 2km), then are either Bellator or Allegiance equivalents - again no real problem with that, because they have the size to make that capability plausible.
I think a Viscount would actually outmatch an Assertor easily, discounting the latter's superlaser. I estimate a Viscount would generate about 1.3e28w, which is ample to eviscerate an Assertor if it didn't have time to charge its weapon. It also depends on how powerful the weapon is at full charge (i.e. is it 10% power draw for 20 seconds - 8e27, or 30% for 60 seconds - 7.2e28, etc.)

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It's also more heavily armoured (there's a lot more structure to get through in order to hit a critical component), and could probably carry more fighters. The Viscount is a real beast. Going by this, it could have been designed by the New Republic to withstand ambushes or attacks by the Imperial Remnant which comprised multiple dreadnoughts. It's also much cheaper in crew terms to build and man 1 big ship instead of 1000 smaller ones, so it could have been a budgetary move too.
As an aside, I also have a huge problem with people that taken official word as absolute gospel and refuse to accept anything else. The 1.2km Home One bullshit ticks me off like few other things, because we have direct visual OT-film canon evidence that it's not that small. If we all went lemming-like along that path Executor would still be 8km.
Yes, especially when writers are more concerned with (and skilled at creating) narratives, and don't tend to even understand that the important metric of a ship's power is its volume difference to another ship, not the difference in length. It is better that the numbers are figured out by those who understand the rules of starship design, and then writers defer to that information when writing canon. They should stick to their strengths! It's also like with the DS2 - that definitely wasn't 160km in diameter! I much prefer the 500km figure, which is more consistent with on-screen evidence.
Conceptually it was also to have a huge capacitor bank that doubled as a heat/power surge sink for the main power grid.
Interesting - does this mean that the excess heat was turned to energy and stored in the capacitors? Is this your idea of a mechanism of cooling tech in SW?

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Re: Something big

Post by fractalsponge1 » 2018-09-03 06:40pm

I don't know enough about Viscount, but I'd guess that it would be at minimum Executor-equivalent power. Certainly from the way it was described it should be. From what I've seen of it I'd wager it was pretty slow but extremely tough. Volume distribution and actual power is totally unknown AFAIK, but given how the Rebel Alliance/New Republic runs things I'd wager that it's largely hangar volume or something like that. Total speculation.

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Re: Something big

Post by fractalsponge1 » 2018-09-03 10:45pm

Gallery up, Proclamator-class star frigate:

Image

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Re: Something big

Post by Crossroads Inc. » 2018-09-04 01:23am

I LOVE IT!
I always was much more of a fan of the Acclamators than the Venator SD's so seeing a "heavier" version of the Accalamtor is pretty bad ass.
Love the look of it over all, a wonderful medium ship between the transports of the Acclamtor and the "Carrier" of the Venators.
JOLLY GOOD!
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Re: Something big

Post by Abacus » 2018-09-04 11:38am

fractalsponge1 wrote:
2018-09-03 10:45pm
Gallery up, Proclamator-class star frigate:

Image
It looks to be a bit longer than the original 400m you were aiming for...or is that just me and my lack of ability in judging sizes? [insert penile jokes here]
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Re: Something big

Post by fractalsponge1 » 2018-09-04 01:09pm

Abacus wrote:
2018-09-04 11:38am
fractalsponge1 wrote:
2018-09-03 10:45pm
Gallery up, Proclamator-class star frigate:

Image
It looks to be a bit longer than the original 400m you were aiming for...or is that just me and my lack of ability in judging sizes? [insert penile jokes here]
Did I say 400m? If I did that was a typo. The Acclamator is already 750-ish m so there was no way it would be much smaller. This ship is ~890m (mostly from the fantail)

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Re: Something big

Post by Abacus » 2018-09-05 10:47am

Si, I see. I was thrown I guess because you had referred to it as a "heavy frigate" and I was judging that off the Anaxes War College System.
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Re: Something big

Post by fractalsponge1 » 2018-09-05 11:19am

Just posted some Proclamator design notes, copying here:

Some basics: overall length 889.6m (hull), power ~1.5e24W

The basic concept of this ship was as a full warship equivalent to Acclamator, in the same design lineage.

In my background for the design, this was basically an Old Republic ISD: a flexible ship suitable for many roles and independent action with its own troops and fighters. Before the expansion in ship sizes during the Clone Wars, this would probably have been rated a Star Destroyer. The design is a good one, so it just gets re-rated and continues long in service into the Imperial era.

In my interpretation, when it came time to make a fast assault ship, the designers took an existing warship hull design and stripped it down, like a razée. Since it's easier to remove mass than add it, and keeping costs down is important to get numbers quickly and replace losses in contested landings, the resulting design lost a lot of warship capability by removing heavy (and expensive) things like heavy weapons, armor, and power systems. But the loss of weight meant that a lot of the speed is retained (see the related concepts expanded in: Star Wars Ship Design Technical Notes 1).

So take the Proclamator's hull, and fit a much smaller but much more efficient reactor to it for range. All the heavy turbolasers and their structural bracing and power systems go, and the medium quad turbolasers are redistributed a bit. Cut down the fantail and a lot of the ventral hull to remove armor weight, and reassign hangar bay volume to internal troop and vehicle storage. All the savings in weight in armor and structure means engines can be down-rated as well. The inner pair of main engines are retained, and the middle pair reduced to secondaries (the engine axes are the same relative position as in an Acclamator). Outer engines are removed, saving more weight and cost. I have purposefully kept the hull lines very similar to Acclamator at least in plan and dorsal profile - the differences generally follow direct extensions of Acclamator profile lines, except the ventral and engine areas. As a combat transport, warship sensor and command spaces are less important, so the bridge module and sensor fit gets cut down a lot. In general, Acclamator would be this design, trimmed of a lot of excess armored volume.

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Re: Something big

Post by Abacus » 2018-09-11 10:16am

Can anyone link me and/or tell me what the dimensions and weapons were for the TIE Demolisher? I must have missed them and can't seem to find them.
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Re: Something big

Post by PhoenixKnig » 2018-09-14 11:39pm

WIP2
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Re: Something big

Post by Abacus » 2018-09-16 06:13am

PhoenixKnig wrote:
2018-09-14 11:39pm
WIP2
Gratsi!
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Re: Something big

Post by fractalsponge1 » 2018-09-17 01:36am

This is what I very affectionately call the WTF-Wing. I took the Nebulon Ranger concept from the old Jedi comics and concepted it out a LOT. The original had this super cool asymmetry but didn't make any sense with regard to how the engines were set up only on one side away from all the mass (it should just spin in circles). Plus the scale was a bit ambiguous - is it a starfighter? freighter sized? So I took the general vibe of the design, swapped the wing side because why not, and scaled it at transport scale - it's about the overall structural volume of an Assault Transport, but obviously hideously inefficiently distributed. I then adjusted the massing forms to make it look like it had thrust balance, and spent a lot of time figuring out how it would land in a cool way. Fly asymmetrical, land symmetrical.

I figured it could be military or civilian, but either way it would be a fast scout/courier/prospector/survey ship - modifiable and probably often heavily modified, but that circular dish seemed like a sensor so I went with that and added more sensors to fit. The "head" is the crew compartment, and there's an engineering deck above and to starboard under the sensor elements, and the bottom bay is a cargo and maybe light vehicle storage area. If it were an RPG ship, room for a party of 6 very comfortably (I have a whole backstory for the interior layout now). It'll spend a lot of time in space, so needs an airlock - there's an extendable one aft to interface with ships and stations without landing. For scale the front-most center windows are about standing human height and the whole thing is ~33m long.

Power density could potentially be high (it'll use >50% volume for power and propulsion on Assault Transport volume, which already had starfighter performance while probably using 25-30% volume for power systems). OK shields but nowhere near the same firepower - it's not a ship designed to fight. Ultralight turbolasers - good against starfighters and transports, totally useless against capital ships. The design allows for some reasonably good firing arcs though. Compare against an ATR, which has 4 light turbolasers, 4 comparable ion, and a heavy warhead load.

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Re: Something big

Post by Esquire » 2018-09-17 11:52am

But... But why? Why is that thing the way that it is?
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Re: Something big

Post by PhoenixKnig » 2018-09-17 01:20pm

It's from the old Old Republic Era
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Re: Something big

Post by PhoenixKnig » 2018-09-17 01:40pm

PhoenixKnig wrote:
2018-09-17 01:20pm
It's from the old Old Republic Era
It based off of Nebulon Ranger concept from the old Jedi comics
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Re: Something big

Post by fractalsponge1 » 2018-09-17 01:50pm

Esquire wrote:
2018-09-17 11:52am
But... But why? Why is that thing the way that it is?
This is one of those times when it's best not to think too hard about it and just run with the artsy side :)

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