Pre-industrial Fantasy STGOD OOC/Rules Thread:

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

The Heavenly Kingdom of Fusang (扶桑天国, Chinese: Fúsāng Tiānguó, Japanese: Fusō Tengoku, Korean: 부상천국 / Busang Cheongug) has, over the course of the last few centuries, developed from a rag-tag gathering of refugees to one of the dominant powers of the western reaches.

The peoples of modern Fusang trace their ancestry to the legendary Three Kingdoms of Han, Joseon, and Yamato. Long ago, a group of Han seers foretold doom for the Three Kingdoms unless they crossed the ocean and resettled in the far east, beyond the rising sun; the seers called this promised land "Fusang," supposedly after a tree that grew in great abundance there. The reigning monarchs were initially skeptical of the seers' proclamations, but a Han court sorceror, Xu Fu, arranged for an expedition of 8,000 Han colonists to depart for this promised land. A decade after the departure of this first expedition, one of the initial Han colonists, Hui Shen, returned to tell the Han monarch of Fusang in great detail; now convinced, the Han monarch had Xu Fu and Hui Shen gather additional colonists to send to Fusang and sent envoys to the Joseon and Yamato courts to convince them to follow suit. Colonization of Fusang went ahead at a slow yet steady pace, but a massive and overwhelming invasion by barbarians from the west a few years into the colonization effort forced the hands of the Three Kingdoms. Within a decade of the first barbarian attacks, Joseon had already fallen, Han was on the verge of collapse, and the barbarians had successfully made landfall in the islands that comprised Yamato; the colonization effort had already become an exodus, with the militaries of the Three Kingdoms attempting to buy time for the civilian population to evacuate. By the time the Han and Yamato kingdoms finally fell, a century after the first barbarian attacks, well over a million colonists/refugees from the Three Kingdoms had already departed for Fusang.

Fusang's would-be settlers braved treacherous seas, ravenous sea monsters, and the ever-present risk of starvation to reach their promised land. At least one colonist was lost at sea for every colonist that had successfully managed to make landfall. Those who had made the journey during the exodus from the Three Kingdoms found the descendants of the first expedition fighting against the then-dominant power of the region, the Kingdom of Cordoba (Reino de Córdoba); the first Han colonists of Fusang had settled in the northernmost reaches of Cordoba's territory, immediately inviting the ire of the Cordobans. Much to the frustration of the Cordobans, however, the Han colonists were a tenacious and persistent lot, resisting all efforts to destroy their colony with extreme prejudice. The arrival of the refugees from the three kingdoms tipped the scales in favor of the Fusang colony; from their foothold, they broke out into Cordoban territory like a flood. Within a century of the exodus from the Three Kingdoms, the Despotate of Cordoba had effectively ceased to exist, with the majority of its territory now part of Fusang; what remained of Cordoba was largely absorbed by the necromantic empire of Tarn, leaving only a few independent city-states to attest to Cordoba's former grandeur.

The next few centuries were a period of consolidation for the newly-proclaimed Heavenly Kingdom of Fusang. Newer, grander cities were built among the ruins of Cordoba's old settlements. The fertile valleys of the former Cordoban heartland now fed the Heavenly Kingdom's steadily-growing population, their food output further improved by the breeding of high-yield crop strains and the development of primitive mechanized agriculture (and the occasional offering to the spirits). Peace was made with the lich lords of Tarn, despite Fusang's distaste for necromancy. Fusang's armies kept themselves busy fighting off the Reconquistas, numerous abortive attempts by the remnants of Cordoba to reclaim their former territories.

The modern Heavenly Kingdom faces several challenges. Drug addiction has started to become a major problem for productivity in the northern frontier, in no small part due to the efforts of the barons that rule the Emerald Triangle. The southern city-states of Ludovicus Regnum and Didacus, the two largest surviving city-states of ancient Cordoba, are preparing for another Reconquista. There are rumors that long-isolationist Tarn seeks to reopen formal diplomatic relations with Fusang for the first time in centuries. And what of the other kingdoms that lie to the extreme north and to the far east, beyond Tarn and the Emerald Triangle?

[madd0ct0r]

Just noticed Simon jesters suggestion on pahe 4 to move the hyenorks to the great plains. I'm fine to do that, but they'll need some sort of limiter to explain why they've not yet gone Genghis khan on everywhere else.
If the map ceneter has since been filled then we're good.


Also: external freedom. You want gas weapons? Gorgons, wyvrens, gas golems, elementals, swamp dragons, necro-cattle

Do we have dragons living in the grand canyon or Niagara yet?

[The Romulan Republic]

I get the sense that we're pretty good in the plains now. Or at least, that the middle of the map isn't empty any more.

[Jub]

Here's a rough outline of the current map. Some borders are very rough, just based on the general area/geographic feature people mentioned they'd like to be in/based around. The NPC Sioux nation is also not pictured, but will be very easy to add.



If what you see doesn't fit what you wanted, or if I got your nation's name wrong, or anything really, let me know and I'll be happy to fix it.

Also, TimothyC if you want to take over map duties I have no issue whatsoever. I'm just doing this because it helps paint a picture of how things are shaping up.

[Beowulf]

I'm in, in what is commonly called the Dragon Empire, located in the Southeast. It is known as the Dragon Empire due to the dragons oft seen flying through the skies. They aren't often seen with riders, but they appear to never attack people, indicating some level of intelligence, despite attacks on livestock (which result in compensation for the livestock owners). Exact borders to come.

[The Romulan Republic]

Why did you label my stretch of territory "Eternal", Jub? I hadn't come up with a name for my faction yet, but I'm tentatively leaning toward "The Travellers".

[Eternal_Freedom]

I shall take Sea Skimmer's advice on chemical weapons, though I was leaning more towards non-lethal gases anyway. They're a siege weapon.

And Simon, yeah good point on trying to out-weird the Ohioans, I'll stick to fire and iron instead.

Backstory post to follow soon-ish once I've done some housework.

[Jub]

Why did you label my stretch of territory "Eternal", Jub? I hadn't come up with a name for my faction yet, but I'm tentatively leaning toward "The Travellers".

Because early morning and a derpy brain, I'll fix it sometime today.

[Aasharu]

Also, my southeastern boarder should be flush against AMT's northwestern one, and there's no H in Tarn, but otherwise looks good. I like how the map is forming a big U of civilization around the edge of the continent.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Looks like I may have room to expand into Ontario once the game begins, pushing westwards against the nomads and bandits there in-game, what fun

[Zwinmar]

I would like to lay claim to the area bound within the confines of the North Platte and Missouri rivers: Roughly from what is Omaha in the east to Denver in the west and north to Bismark, ND and west to Billings, Montana. The spiritual and religious center in the Black Hills.

This territory is home to the once nomadic Thyrs. Green skinned and tusked these beings are often spoken of derogatorily as orcs though they are highly disciplined.

(If this area is taken well the south eastern seaboard from Appalachia to the sea is fine)

[Simon_Jester]

Hey, E_F, do you mind having one of my character thinking of "the blazing, haughty ranks of the Spirit-deniers of Orion?"

Jub, may I suggest moving Esquire's northern border north to the line of, oh... how about north to the Des Moines River, then cutting along the Raccoon River where it joins the Des Moines, then cutting free of the river and going southwest until it meets one of the tributaries of the Missouri? It seems less arbitrary that way.

[No, I'm not criticizing, I know you were doing a good job of improvising without precise information.]

Just noticed Simon jesters suggestion on pahe 4 to move the hyenorks to the great plains. I'm fine to do that, but they'll need some sort of limiter to explain why they've not yet gone Genghis khan on everywhere else.

It's less of an issue now that we have multiple polities of respectable size popping up in the middle of the map. As to possible reasons-
1) Other people have guns and hordes of skeleton warriors and possibly hordes of skeleton warriors with guns. Conquering them is haaard.
2) It may be harder to unite hyenork clans than human clans, possibly for reasons associated with the psychology of sexual dimorphism. However, that might restrict you for gameplay so it's not such a good idea.
3) Maybe the hyenorks were under some kind of ancient curse since Time Immemorial (TM), which reduced their reproductive rate (already borderline given that they have what amounted to r-type reproduction) such that their population numbers were reduced and they were grossly weakened. The curse has faded or been dispelled in the past century or two, and the hyenorks are rebounding with a vengeance.

[No, I did not think of the krogans from Mass Effect until I was already done typing this. ]

Tarn would be obvious candidates for doing a curse, but we probably shouldn't blame every piece of 'evil' magic on the continent on them (unless of course Aasharu wants us to in which case let's go for it, yay having a Mordor!).

[Eternal_Freedom]

Hey, E_F, do you mind having one of my character thinking of "the blazing, haughty ranks of the Spirit-deniers of Orion?"

Go for it, as long as we can have people taking about "the primitive, superstitious fools in Ohio."

[Simon_Jester]

It had literally never crossed my mind that you would do otherwise.

For extra hilarity, last century the Ohioans fought a religious civil war over theological debates within the Church of the Living Stars. The only difference between the two sides that outsiders could actually comprehend was that the orthodox practitioners hold ceremonies at night, while the heretics hold them during the day. The heretics were eventually suppressed though not massacred, and remain subject to low-level harassment and persecution unless they have enough personal political status to get away with it.

Feel free to make comedy gold out of this.

[Eternal_Freedom]

...I reminded of the Cat religion from Red Dwarf, the difference between what colour hats they shoudl wear

[Aasharu]

Tarn would be obvious candidates for doing a curse, but we probably shouldn't blame every piece of 'evil' magic on the continent on them (unless of course Aasharu wants us to in which case let's go for it, yay having a Mordor!).

Tarn as I'm currently envisioning them is unlikely to be cursing much of anybody - up until the two Everkings left their bodies dormant, Tarn was primarily insular and fortress-minded, both politically and magically. This paid off in some ways - the Tarnish plateau has become nearly unsurvivable due to the constant necromantic energy (the climate there is closer to OTL Death Valley, rather than OTL Colorado Plateau.) Also, it likely isn't possible for something to die in Tarn without it rising as a zombie or ghoul, usually within moments of death. However, one of the major drawbacks of these is that Lu Zhi literally cannot rise from the throne at Arjuna's Fortress unless one of the other two liches is there to take her place. The enchantments would dissolve if she did.

So, I doubt the Triumvirate themselves would have been cursing much of anybody else; however, one idea I really like is that the rest of the continent doesn't know that. Especially among the more anti-magic factions on the continent, I can see Tarn proving a convenient scapegoat for any major unexplained magical or environmental catastrophes.

[Simon_Jester]

...I reminded of the Cat religion from Red Dwarf, the difference between what colour hats they shoudl wear

.

Technically, there was actually a fairly goodish reason (by the standards of religious civil wars) It's just that you basically have to have taken a few years of the Church of the Living Stars' equivalent of Sunday school classes to understand what the hell they were arguing about. At the Cracked.com level of political comprehension, it appears to have been about whether to pray in the morning, or in the evening.

So, I doubt the Triumvirate themselves would have been cursing much of anybody else; however, one idea I really like is that the rest of the continent doesn't know that. Especially among the more anti-magic factions on the continent, I can see Tarn proving a convenient scapegoat for any major unexplained magical or environmental catastrophes.

As the more anti-magic faction on the continent, I approve of this.

You're not Mordor. We're not Gondor. We just think those things are true.

Ironically, if there is such a thing as "white necromancy," you can make a good case for the Ohioans practicing it; what I mean by this will become more clear after my first round of story posts detailing a minor battle on the northern marches, just south of OTL Detroit.

[Beowulf]

Tarn would be obvious candidates for doing a curse, but we probably shouldn't blame every piece of 'evil' magic on the continent on them (unless of course Aasharu wants us to in which case let's go for it, yay having a Mordor!).

Tarn as I'm currently envisioning them is unlikely to be cursing much of anybody - up until the two Everkings left their bodies dormant, Tarn was primarily insular and fortress-minded, both politically and magically. This paid off in some ways - the Tarnish plateau has become nearly unsurvivable due to the constant necromantic energy (the climate there is closer to OTL Death Valley, rather than OTL Colorado Plateau.) Also, it likely isn't possible for something to die in Tarn without it rising as a zombie or ghoul, usually within moments of death. However, one of the major drawbacks of these is that Lu Zhi literally cannot rise from the throne at Arjuna's Fortress unless one of the other two liches is there to take her place. The enchantments would dissolve if she did.

So, I doubt the Triumvirate themselves would have been cursing much of anybody else; however, one idea I really like is that the rest of the continent doesn't know that. Especially among the more anti-magic factions on the continent, I can see Tarn proving a convenient scapegoat for any major unexplained magical or environmental catastrophes.

The Dragon Empire is known for high level magic... However I think the ability to curse an entire race would be beyond an individual caster's ability. Also, they're on the wrong side of the continent to care.

[Simon_Jester]

Maybe the hyenorcs' territory was more extensive in Time Immemorial, back when civilized societies had weaker technology to oppose them with, and before someone established matters so that they bred at just right about replacement rate?

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

Based on the latest version of Jub's map, I threw this together. Gave Tarn a bit more territory, played a bit fast and loose with Crazedwraith's borders, and forgot to add Zwinmar's territorial claim, but everything else should be close enough. I could easily adjust Esquire's territory to fit Simon's suggestion.

[Jub]

I would like to lay claim to the area bound within the confines of the North Platte and Missouri rivers: Roughly from what is Omaha in the east to Denver in the west and north to Bismark, ND and west to Billings, Montana. The spiritual and religious center in the Black Hills.

This territory is home to the once nomadic Thyrs. Green skinned and tusked these beings are often spoken of derogatorily as orcs though they are highly disciplined.

(If this area is taken well the south eastern seaboard from Appalachia to the sea is fine)

I think we can get you tucked in there.

-----

Jub, may I suggest moving Esquire's northern border north to the line of, oh... how about north to the Des Moines River, then cutting along the Raccoon River where it joins the Des Moines, then cutting free of the river and going southwest until it meets one of the tributaries of the Missouri? It seems less arbitrary that way.

Yeah, I can easily make that change. I was just sort of roughing things in with this most recent map update.

-----

In terms of slinging curses, my faction would actually be pretty likely to do something like that.

I know I haven't put out much information on them, but I'm thinking a vaguely Coast Salish style society divided into castes. The top caste would be great priests, non-religious men showing great leadership skills, and the first wives of these men; the next caste would consist of the lesser priests and highly skilled craftsmen; below them would be average craftsmen, priests in training, hunters, and wariors; below them are farmers and gatherers, and the lowest caste consists of slaves either captured in raids or those born into the caste without enough skill/guile/charisma to earn freedom.

The Syilx are very close to the spirits and can call the guardian beasts from lakes, rivers, mountains, forests, etc under their control to their aid. Due to this, they aren't expansionist as the rituals needed to gain a spirits favor are long and resource intensive while maintaining a good relationship with them is far less costly. However, it also means that they don't let go of land easily because a bond not maintained is very easily broken and spirits care not for why mortals haven't appeased them. These guardians aren't called lightly as they require large tributes in accordance with their nature though they're great for a last resort because they can be summoned by a single high priest without the need for dozens of people chanting and dancing.

They can also summon lesser versions of these spirits from totems, the largest totems are stationary, often the size of a house and they can be made in any shape so long as the craftsman carving the totem has sufficient skill, these totems are used in defense of cities and can take from a dozen to hundreds of ritualist to activate. Examples of these guardian totems include bears the size of a farmhouse with six legs, hundreds of eyes, and tentacles ending in mouths of razor sharp teeth; eagles as large as school buses, with six wings, beaks that open like the jaws of a snake, and fiery breath; and serpents a hundred meters long with heads at both ends that can slither through the earth like a fish swims through water. Mid sized totems, carried in carts pulled by slaves, can be just as fanciful, but are portable and thus can be used on offense. Smaller totems, fist sized, can create more normal things often trained animals with bears, hawks, wolves, and stags being popular. The weaknesses of these totems is that they require lengthy rituals involving many people to summon and the fact that, based on the size of the totem, a killed totem beast can take from days to a full year to recover.

The last line of defense is the warrior. These are men, and very rarely women, armed with a spear, bow, and hide body shield. Though they seem primative in terms of arms and armor the tools they do have are enchanted by spirits. Their spears, if used well, can best plate armor as can arrows fired from their bows. Meanwhile their shields are strong enough to withstand musket rounds. Their war dress also gives them advantages in strength, speed, endurance, and sense. Some warriors also have large stags as mounts, but more often the warriors fight on foot. Their job is often to simply hold the line long enough for the totem beasts to be summoned.

Due to their unique way of fighting the Syilx generally prefer raiding against people that can't fight back, or fighting defensively where they can bring their strongest totems to bear. If they're stirred to war they often try to bait the enemy into traps where a waiting totem can be brought to life. Then, once the main army is broken they lay siege to their target. They dislike fighting enemies who lack large cities, but will often raid them knowing that any counter attack will favor their prepared defenses.

Due to their strengths my army is probably only around 30,000 warriors (each counting as 2 points), with a varriety of totems and guardian spirits making up the other 40,000 army points.

As for why they might curse somebody, that's pretty simple, they don't like when people treat them the way they treat others. They see themselves as being peaceful and tend to over react to any tresspass. They also deeply regret helping the elves cross their lands after seeing that the elves don't respect the local spirits (anything less than worshiping the spirits exactly as they do and with twice the fervor isn't good enough).

[Eternal_Freedom]

I'm thinking my army/navy is going to need some anti-magic ordnance. Hmm, we already found a gunpowder additive that cancels the weight-lifting enchantment, that sounds like a good starting point.

[Crazedwraith]

Based on the latest version of Jub's map, I threw this together. Gave Tarn a bit more territory, played a bit fast and loose with Crazedwraith's borders, and forgot to add Zwinmar's territorial claim, but everything else should be close enough. I could easily adjust Esquire's territory to fit Simon's suggestion.

Which Mountains did I end up with? Sorry for the stupid question.

I'm not picturing my guys as need a lot of territory on the surface. If they need more room, they just digger deeper or wider networks of tunnels. The surface dwellers are farmers and herders that go some way to providing the food needed for those underground. As well as providing a surface face for people to come and trade for their gem and precious/magic metals.

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

Which Mountains did I end up with? Sorry for the stupid question.

I'm not picturing my guys as need a lot of territory on the surface. If they need more room, they just digger deeper or wider networks of tunnels. The surface dwellers are farmers and herders that go some way to providing the food needed for those underground. As well as providing a surface face for people to come and trade for their gem and precious/magic metals.

According to Jub's map, which I tried to replicate using that map of U.S. counties, apparently you're up in the Rocky Mountains. Specifically, Jub put you in the area of the Sawtooth and Wasatch Ranges; your territory also includes the Snake River Plain and significant portions of the Great Basin and Columbia Plateau.

[Simon_Jester]

I'm thinking my army/navy is going to need some anti-magic ordnance. Hmm, we already found a gunpowder additive that cancels the weight-lifting enchantment, that sounds like a good starting point.

In my current story posts an Ohioan officer falls back on one of the old mythological standbys for that purpose, but it isn't standard issue.

Congratulations, E_F! You may have found something that Orion and Ohio can agree to cooperate on!

(seriously, it'd be that, or a canal, and there is only one place where it would make sense for us to cooperate on a canal).

Based on the latest version of Jub's map, I threw this together. Gave Tarn a bit more territory, played a bit fast and loose with Crazedwraith's borders, and forgot to add Zwinmar's territorial claim, but everything else should be close enough. I could easily adjust Esquire's territory to fit Simon's suggestion.

Which Mountains did I end up with? Sorry for the stupid question.

I'm not picturing my guys as need a lot of territory on the surface. If they need more room, they just digger deeper or wider networks of tunnels. The surface dwellers are farmers and herders that go some way to providing the food needed for those underground. As well as providing a surface face for people to come and trade for their gem and precious/magic metals.

In addition to what Shinn said...

You're located in American Northwest, your territory appears to be centered in OTL Idaho. Wikipedia says there are 114 mountain ranges in Idaho, which gives you a sense for what the terrain is like. Also lots of trees if you like firewood or charcoal.

Your territory includes the headwaters of the Missouri River, a very long river which flows roughly west by southwest across the Great Plains in the center of the North American continent. If you want any kind of long distance trade in metals with the societies of central and eastern North America, it would probably have to run along that river. Boat travel along the Missouri is... interestingly difficult, there are quite a few waterfalls and the river level varies sharply. Could make for fun.

You might want to use Wikipedia to become familiar with the terrain a bit; I've been doing that lately, in my leisure time.