Modern World STGOD Concept

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Re: Modern World STGOD Concept

Post by RogueIce » 2014-06-11 02:10pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:I'd rather not have a major attack on Corona. If others think it's a good idea, I'm willing to be flexible about it, but I was envisioning an attack on my colony/overseas naval battles more than an attack on Corona itself.
That's what I've been talking about, at least. A mostly naval conflict. I'm assuming - if it winds up being against Omnia - those buffer states at 9 and 31 would prevent a land-based threat from emerging. Otherwise, I can launch Marine raids on Omnia itself to keep them on their toes and deter them from amassing their land strength against you. Purely as an incidental, of course; the main goal of said raids is to disrupt their dockyards and such, as well as force naval units into coastal defense so I can get after them more piecemeal.

Any help you get from me is purely a coincidence. ;)

Of course, if a PC steps up to fill Omnia's shoes, that'll all change depending on what we work out between the three of us. Though the overall struggle - PC attacks Corona's island territories, Shinra Republic intervenes for [Reasons], SRN deals with "Main Units" while Corona deals with "Second Line" units, PC ultimately loses to SR & Corona - should remain.
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Re: Modern World STGOD Concept

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2014-06-11 02:59pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:If you and I dropped out alliance idea, we could have had a Falklands-style war over a colony in the 1950s or 60's.
Hmm. What would be Orion's motive?

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Re: Modern World STGOD Concept

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2014-06-11 03:28pm

Perhaps an attempt to "liberate" colonists from (what we see) as an ineffective government?

It wouldn't be an outright defeat for us, but a moderately bloody stalemate that doesn't get us anywhere.
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Re: Modern World STGOD Concept

Post by Force Lord » 2014-06-11 03:54pm

National Populist Granadia has done some really bad stuff over the years, including a Tiananmen-style crackdown in 1991. Think of a more nasty Fascist Italy, though not reaching Third Reich levels of badness.
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Re: Modern World STGOD Concept

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2014-06-11 03:56pm

Orion isn't exactly a beacon of morality either, what with that whole forced deportation of Britonian colonists thing. Or rather the choice: "leave or die."
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Re: Modern World STGOD Concept

Post by Siege » 2014-06-11 04:05pm

If this fight with Omnia is about some nebulous remote islands we don't care, but anyone who launches attacks on Omnia proper will have to deal with being shot at by San Doradan privateers and mercenaries. The east of Austrafrica is ours. We don't care about your reasons, foreign navies are not welcome here, much less marine landing forces. Leave or be torpedoed.
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Re: Modern World STGOD Concept

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2014-06-11 05:19pm

Would my country be considered part of the San Dorado dominated area? I doubt Corona would like that, but it probably wouldn't want to fight for fear of economic retaliation.

Edit: Actually, Corona would definitely dislike being dominated by San Dorado.

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Re: Modern World STGOD Concept

Post by Esquire » 2014-06-11 05:47pm

Apelia could have been the ones trying to snatch Corona's colonies. This might explain how we got our protectorate over Dark Blue Country - Omnia backed Corona and Shinra, and even though the allied fleets destroyed nearly all of Apelia's ships the Omnians, providing most of the ground capability, were too disorganized to keep Apelian troops from penetrating into Omnia itself. An eventual ceasefire-in-place opened the way for Dark Blue Country autonomy from Omnia and the current protectorate.
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Re: Modern World STGOD Concept

Post by Steve » 2014-06-11 06:12pm

An interesting alternative to the idea that BRitonia caused it, if you're talking about the area between you and Omnia.
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Re: Modern World STGOD Concept

Post by Jub » 2014-06-11 07:04pm

I'm open to having been a 'bad guy' in the near past. It could partially explain why my colonies were abandoned, why the Versahinveld rebellion succeeded, and how even with a good world economy my economic recovery hasn't gone to plan.

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Re: Modern World STGOD Concept

Post by Siege » 2014-06-11 11:33pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:Would my country be considered part of the San Dorado dominated area? I doubt Corona would like that, but it probably wouldn't want to fight for fear of economic retaliation.

Edit: Actually, Corona would definitely dislike being dominated by San Dorado.
Most people in San Dorado dislike being dominated by San Dorado too!

I'll clarify though: by 'foreign' I mean off-continent and not-from-the-area. You're from around here (like Apelia) so you can do pretty much what you like as long as it doesn't involve, oh say, sailing carrier groups into Omnian waters or near San Dorado. Because San Dorado is a small area stacked full of high value targets. We've historically taken a dim view of anyone doing anything military near us and as engagement ranges have grown and weapon damage increased this view has only grown dimmer -- and defenses have grown correspondingly.

At the same time we don't run traditional carrier groups of our own and we don't have a military in the traditional sense at all, so any 'dominating' that San Dorado does beyond the immediate vicinity of the city won't be military, it'll be economic. You should worry about that far more than what we can do to you with bombs and guns.
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Re: Modern World STGOD Concept

Post by TimothyC » 2014-06-12 01:10am

Siege wrote:At the same time we don't run traditional carrier groups of our own and we don't have a military in the traditional sense at all, so any 'dominating' that San Dorado does beyond the immediate vicinity of the city won't be military, it'll be economic. You should worry about that far more than what we can do to you with bombs and guns.
I think this is why so many of the Pacific nations are so willing to investing in making Hawai'i so dominant over the trade interests in the Pacific - it helps keep San Dorado at bay.

That said, unlike San Dorado, Hawai'i does have an official military, and while it doesn't have carrier groups, it does have amphibs:

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Re: Modern World STGOD Concept

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2014-06-12 01:29am

Siege wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:Would my country be considered part of the San Dorado dominated area? I doubt Corona would like that, but it probably wouldn't want to fight for fear of economic retaliation.

Edit: Actually, Corona would definitely dislike being dominated by San Dorado.
Most people in San Dorado dislike being dominated by San Dorado too!

I'll clarify though: by 'foreign' I mean off-continent and not-from-the-area. You're from around here (like Apelia) so you can do pretty much what you like as long as it doesn't involve, oh say, sailing carrier groups into Omnian waters or near San Dorado. Because San Dorado is a small area stacked full of high value targets. We've historically taken a dim view of anyone doing anything military near us and as engagement ranges have grown and weapon damage increased this view has only grown dimmer -- and defenses have grown correspondingly.

At the same time we don't run traditional carrier groups of our own and we don't have a military in the traditional sense at all, so any 'dominating' that San Dorado does beyond the immediate vicinity of the city won't be military, it'll be economic. You should worry about that far more than what we can do to you with bombs and guns.
Corona wouldn't send warships into another country's territory without permission unless they had a very good reason to do it.

However, I don't think Corona and San Dorado would get along. Corona's pretty left wing and wouldn't care for San Dorado privateers. To Corona, they're not very different from pirates. Corona would tolerate San Dorado enough to avoid major retaliation because its pretty weak, but relations are not likely to be friendly.

Edit: I'm wondering how far a conflict could go before you'd wreck Corona economically.

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Re: Modern World STGOD Concept

Post by Steve » 2014-06-12 04:38am

Why is it that with San Dorado, I can't help but imagine its national anthem being something like this?

"When dragons belch and hippos flee
My thoughts, Ankh-Morpork, are of thee
Let others boast of martial dash
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Re: Modern World STGOD Concept

Post by madd0ct0r » 2014-06-12 04:59am

I've always found Creation Myths a good way to get inside the head of a society:

In the beginning, when the world was new, Eksa of the Mountain married Nadi of the River. As a wedding gift he carried forth great fields of of earth to her feet and she plaited them to form a carpet. They lay together for an age, and she bore him three sons. The eldest, Hakano rode on gulls to the clouds, squeezing and pushing them to feed his mother. The next, Joyara ran away to sea on his pet dolphin. There he met and married Ghoa, the foam horse rider of the deep blue. The youngest, Sukara, stayed home and raised pigs.

These pigs were very large, as everything was when the world was young. They rooted up forests, and tusked at the mountains. Big gouges where carved in the valleys and their trotters left hollows that filled into ponds. Nadi sighed for the damage to her braided carpet but allowed the pigs free reign becuase her pet water buffalo loved the hollows and wallows. Eksa was less pleased with the damage and would throw pebbles and boulders down at the pigs to drive them back down the valley.

When a great tiger demon claimed the forests, Eksa returned to the mountain. He rode a great bear and carried the moon for a shield and the mountain top itself for his hammer. The land trembled with his fury and all fled before him. Treacherous Khan, the evil tiger, lay in ambush and attacked from behind with claws of steel and wire. The wound was deep, and blood sprayed across the heavens, forming the stars. Eksa roared in pain till the moutains shook but before he could turn Khan had fled back into the forest, ready to strike again.

To help his father, Hakano opened the sky and tried to batter the forest flat. Khan moved into the sheltered valley, and remained hidden, but Nadi collected the flowing water, red with her husband's blood and bound it to remember him. To help his father, Joyara rode up the river, driving the flood before him to try and wash Khan out of hiding but the whily tiger sprang into the trees and escaped.

Now Sukara came, whistling his pigs as they chewed away at the forest edges, slowly but surely driving Khan back. When only bare rock remained, the snarling Khan was forced to attack, pouncing on and killing Sakura's lead pig. It was a trap, and Sakura shot the tiger with a bow. To thank his pig for it's sacrifice, he collected the pooling blood and rolling it with the soil his father gifted his mother he made little clay figures he called 'Ham 'uns'. Alas, a little of the tigers blood had dripped from it's wound and been mixed in the pool and so from the very start the first humans carried a little of Khan the tiger, as well as Sakura's pig.
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Re: Modern World STGOD Concept

Post by Siege » 2014-06-12 05:38am

TimothyC wrote:I think this is why so many of the Pacific nations are so willing to investing in making Hawai'i so dominant over the trade interests in the Pacific - it helps keep San Dorado at bay.
That sounds quite reasonable. It helps that the Pacific is where San Dorado's probably least prominent (because it's on the other side of the world); our interests focus on Austrafrica first, then Eurasia, South America, North America and the Pacific (in that order). We might not do much in the Pacific beyond moving stuff through it, and I imagine Hawai'i would like to keep it that way.
The Romulan Republic wrote:I don't think Corona and San Dorado would get along.
That is a very healthy view to hold.
Corona's pretty left wing and wouldn't care for San Dorado privateers. To Corona, they're not very different from pirates.
That's fair enough, after all in our world governments tend to disapprove of armed vessels not under the control of a state. And not all privateers are consummate professionals to say the least. On the other hand the bigger ones like Nightfall are highly competent experts. They mainly concern themselves with naval escort or patrol in rough and tumble areas; strike missions are conducted only on the basis of very strict contracts that typically require a legit civil authority to sign off on and take responsibility for so the company can't get sued.

So in that sense they are quite different from pirates (and we're not the only place that runs outfits like this, Rheinland does too). But that's only the big operations, there's plenty of smaller much less legit ones too, and I can definitely see why on the whole a nation might not like them.

I'm still milling over the details of the armament of San Dorado's privateers. I'd like them to be surprisingly capable without turning them into an actual full-blown military force (because I said I wouldn't have one and I'm sticking to that). They're probably very good at things like electronic warfare though.
Corona would tolerate San Dorado enough to avoid major retaliation because its pretty weak, but relations are not likely to be friendly.
Considering you're quite close by, how much of your economy would you be comfortable being directly or indirectly controlled by San Dorado's megacorporations? Mind you I'm not asking for a specific percentage, just a general impression. Maybe SANDEX dominates your export and import, or Axum holds worrying volumes of your T-bills, or Helix recently carried out a hostile takeover of a manufacturing giant that used to be the pride of the nation. Things along those lines would justify the frosty relations a bit more, 'cause the people in power are starting to seriously worry about how much of the country's economy is actually still its own. Just an idea; let me know what you think.
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Re: Modern World STGOD Concept

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2014-06-12 05:40am

Does this world have a version of the UN?
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Re: Modern World STGOD Concept

Post by Siege » 2014-06-12 06:06am

Not currently. If there's a desire for one, I propose setting one up once the game's started.
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Re: Modern World STGOD Concept

Post by Simon_Jester » 2014-06-12 07:58am

Steve wrote:Why is it that with San Dorado, I can't help but imagine its national anthem being something like this?

"When dragons belch and hippos flee
My thoughts, Ankh-Morpork, are of thee
Let others boast of martial dash
For we have boldly fought with cash
We own all your helmets, we own all your shoes
We own all your generals - touch us and you'll lose.

Morporkia! Morporkia!
Morporkia owns the day!
We can rule you wholesale
Touch us and you'll pay.
San Dorado is basically modern Ankh-Morpork without Vetinari's civil reforms. :D
Siege wrote:I'll clarify though: by 'foreign' I mean off-continent and not-from-the-area. You're from around here (like Apelia) so you can do pretty much what you like as long as it doesn't involve, oh say, sailing carrier groups into Omnian waters or near San Dorado. Because San Dorado is a small area stacked full of high value targets. We've historically taken a dim view of anyone doing anything military near us and as engagement ranges have grown and weapon damage increased this view has only grown dimmer -- and defenses have grown correspondingly.

At the same time we don't run traditional carrier groups of our own and we don't have a military in the traditional sense at all, so any 'dominating' that San Dorado does beyond the immediate vicinity of the city won't be military, it'll be economic. You should worry about that far more than what we can do to you with bombs and guns.
Seeing this kind of intensely asymmetric conflict occur would be interesting. Interesting enough that I'd be tempted to participate for the joy of watching it unfold, knowing quite well I'd get the tar beaten out of my national economy by megacorps' dickery. Although I'd want it all on the basis of a gentleman's agreement between us so we don't have any misunderstandings leading to bad blood, especially since I obviously don't understand San Dorado very well.

It's not like I'm planning RAR SUDDENLY RANDOMLY JUMP OUT OF BUSHES AND THREATEN SIEGE. Because that would be lame.
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Re: Modern World STGOD Concept

Post by Siege » 2014-06-12 10:13am

That sounds like fun.

Just to be clear: not all megacorporations are evil incarnate. Some are worse than others, and some are actually run by relatively decent people. Some will screw over millions of people just to make a fast buck; some will erratically crash a market or suddenly invest billions just because its CEO sincerely believes that's the will of his deity; yet others operate on the idea that in the long term it's better to just be a dependable, trustworthy partner. And whilst one company is screwing you over simultaneously another will happily help you mitigate the worst of the damage.

It'll be up to y'all to decide who you think you can trust, and to what extent :).
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Re: Modern World STGOD Concept

Post by KlavoHunter » 2014-06-12 02:39pm

Siege wrote:That sounds like fun.

Just to be clear: not all megacorporations are evil incarnate. Some are worse than others, and some are actually run by relatively decent people. Some will screw over millions of people just to make a fast buck; some will erratically crash a market or suddenly invest billions just because its CEO sincerely believes that's the will of his deity; yet others operate on the idea that in the long term it's better to just be a dependable, trustworthy partner. And whilst one company is screwing you over simultaneously another will happily help you mitigate the worst of the damage.

It'll be up to y'all to decide who you think you can trust, and to what extent :).
The fact that there isn't just one San Dorado is something some players don't entirely seem to get yet. If Corona started shooting at San Doradan privateers... chances are the rest of San Dorado will laugh and seize the failing corporation's assets after a few holes have been blown in their ships.

Of course, continued attempts would result in running into a non-incompetent corp who bumps back, hard...
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Re: Modern World STGOD Concept

Post by RogueIce » 2014-06-12 06:58pm

I'd imagine the competent ones, operating under contract with a competent civil authority, would likely have a room aboard where they keep multiple flags of various nations likely to hire them. And thus, as part of their contract, will be "flagged" by said nation and probably more-or-less be considered a temporary "Naval Reserve unit" of said nation, so as to avoid the issue of being declared pirates and it becoming open season on them (legally). Probably what Thanas' mercenaries might do as well, just so Rheinland isn't technically a belligerent. Unless Rheinland's the one using them in which case fuck it. A modern day letter of marque, unless we still recognize those which I honestly don't know.

The less competent ones might not do that - or work for some entity that is not a government and thus lacks such authority - in which case they could probably be considered pirates and at risk from any other nation's Navy that happens to be close enough to take a swing at them.

Does that sound about right Siege? Plausible? Or something else? And FWIW I'll include Thanas in that as well. I'm just curious how our international laws would go about handling "mercenary navies" operating on the high seas, because AFAIK our Real World doesn't really do that so there's probably no legal framework in place for it. But in SDNW6 World they clearly exist so I imagine there's some kind of legal cover for them, else as I mentioned they could be considered pirates and fair game for anyone's Navy. Theoretically, of course.
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Re: Modern World STGOD Concept

Post by Steve » 2014-06-12 10:21pm

I suspect the old legalisms about letters of marque would be kept.
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Re: Modern World STGOD Concept

Post by Siege » 2014-06-13 06:38am

It's just another instance of private military contracting, just with ships this time instead of units of soldiers on the ground. The main concern that applies to both is if mercenary units are recognized as operating under a sovereign authority. That's the only thing setting mercenaries apart from pirates and brigands. This gets dicey in cases of employment in civil wars or other areas lacking a clear legal authority. Well, that's something to play out when it comes to that.

As far as I'm concerned rolling out a flag can be an odd historical tradition that privateers are expected to go through, but to be frank in this modern age it'd be little more than folklore. It's not like you can actually see the flag of the ship that's shooting missiles at you from over the horizon.
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Re: Modern World STGOD Concept

Post by Simon_Jester » 2014-06-13 08:39am

On the other hand, if the ship's shooting missiles from over the horizon, it isn't confirming its targets very carefully. Which is great if you're in a free-fire THERE IS ONLY WAR scenario. Not so great if your mission is to search and control coastal traffic to, say, stop arms shipments. Which is if anything a more plausible naval PMC mission, because it's easier to build up an experienced cadre and there's less risk of your capital investment getting destroyed by enemy return fire.

Flags are also relevant to identification of ships by aircraft, and for minimizing the risk of your ships getting shot up by mistake (though it can still happen; see the USS Liberty).
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov

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