SDNW5 Discussion Thread I

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Simon_Jester
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Re: SDNW5 Discussion Thread I

Post by Simon_Jester » 2012-04-28 12:03pm

A large enough swarm of gunships would blast apart a super-dreadnought.

X points of little things is equal in value to X points of big things. The point system is usually expected to be applied to groups of things anyway, so it has to be cumulative: large fleets or armies have to be able to have a defined strength. Were you- did you not plan around that assumption?

EDIT: Also, I want to make it clear that players should be restrained and not-pushy in any anti-Cenintern Pact.

We shouldn't see massive gang-ups on the Centralists just because they exist and are moderately authoritarian. Their supposed "menace" really isn't a serious threat to the galactic order, because they aren't that much bigger than anyone else. Also because they don't have a protracted history of conquest. This isn't Nazi Germany we're talking about.

One of the ways that these games can become lame and dull is when large defensive coalitions spring up that deter the more... lively and aggressive players from actually doing anything interesting. Force Lord is fairly good at poking the galaxy in the nose to see what will happen, even if sometimes he gets his finger bruised for his trouble. I respect that, and OOC I don't want to see people ganging up on him and smothering everything he does, just because they dislike his nation's politics.
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Re: SDNW5 Discussion Thread I

Post by Panzersharkcat » 2012-04-28 12:44pm

You should also expect the Bastians to intervene because they are major trade partners with the Centrality. Frankly, if people are going about this because of national ideology, most people should be ganging up on the Bastians because they are, for the most part, a Randian wet dream/libertopia.
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Re: SDNW5 Discussion Thread I

Post by Akhlut » 2012-04-28 02:18pm

Other humans dislike the Centrality a great deal. That is enough reason for the Kritarchy to aid them.

We're just wanting to play off human nations against each other so we can kill them all at our leisure help the beleaguered and poor humans who are being oppressed by so many of their own species.

Edit: Also, the Scumdogs aren't worth more in points per single entity not because they are ineffective or not durable, but because strategy and tactics are not high considerations for them. They have the equipment and toughness of an entire army, but they are not necessarily nearly as good at planning a fight as the Magi, for instance.

After all, smoking tons of crack on a daily basis does not typically enhance logistical or planning acumen. In a single, all-out brawl, they are probably without equal. It's just that no one fights by sending wave after wave after wave of soldiers on an open plain toward the Scumdogs. They're terrible at fighting in a strategic manner designed to win objectives and so forth. They were able to conquer Scumdogia because the mercenaries were so scattered and disunited and were willing to fall in line once they saw all the booty they could acquire with the Scumdogs as their leaders.

Though, they would never actually admit to any of that, even to themselves.
Last edited by Akhlut on 2012-04-28 02:23pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SDNW5 Discussion Thread I

Post by Darkevilme » 2012-04-28 02:21pm

With regard to the anti centralism movement:
In the Chamarran opinion it is only fitting that the ire of the galaxy be directed at an example of humans ruling over humans, an unsavoury practice they themselves believe should be stamped out as soon as inhumanely possible.
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Re: SDNW5 Discussion Thread I

Post by Simon_Jester » 2012-04-28 02:36pm

Akhlut wrote:Edit: Also, the Scumdogs aren't worth more in points per single entity not because they are ineffective or not durable, but because strategy and tactics are not high considerations for them. They have the equipment and toughness of an entire army, but they are not necessarily nearly as good at planning a fight as the Magi, for instance.

After all, smoking tons of crack on a daily basis does not typically enhance logistical or planning acumen. In a single, all-out brawl, they are probably without equal. It's just that no one fights by sending wave after wave after wave of soldiers on an open plain toward the Scumdogs. They're terrible at fighting in a strategic manner designed to win objectives and so forth. They were able to conquer Scumdogia because the mercenaries were so scattered and disunited and were willing to fall in line once they saw all the booty they could acquire with the Scumdogs as their leaders.

Though, they would never actually admit to any of that, even to themselves.
Now I'm imagining this:

The Scumdogs, personally, decide to go wipe out an army that would normally not be a problem for them- a few thousand tanks or something. But this army has an ace in the hole...

A mushroom cloud erupts over the battlefield. The carefully emplaced nuclear demolition charges go off in the one spot it was perfectly obvious the Scumdogs were going to stand, propelling the Gwarianoids into orbit. Grax Gorin stands on the sidelines and chuckles...

"I love it when a plan comes together."

Now we just need a giant dwarf with a mohawk to pity the fools, and all is well.

EDIT: Note, this is five one-point supervillains fighting one five-point hero and the army he's attached to, so it's reasonable to posit the Scumdogs losing. Also note, I'm not saying they can't survive being blasted into orbit by nuclear warheads. Just that it's funny and constitutes "losing" for the Scumdogs.
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Re: SDNW5 Discussion Thread I

Post by Akhlut » 2012-04-28 02:48pm

Oh, of course. Hell, I wouldn't object to the Scumdogs dieing. However, I imagine they'd be back from the dead after a few months after having battled their way through Hell to get back on top of Scumdogia.
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Re: SDNW5 Discussion Thread I

Post by Simon_Jester » 2012-04-28 03:03pm

As long as that comes out of the superheavy ground unit construction budget (possibly to model truly epic construction of monuments, quasoleums, and titanic parties thrown to celebrate their return), you can resurrect them as many times as you want.
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Re: SDNW5 Discussion Thread I

Post by Esquire » 2012-04-28 03:06pm

This word 'quasoleum'... I believe I may have to steal it.
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Re: SDNW5 Discussion Thread I

Post by Simon_Jester » 2012-04-28 03:33pm

You already got barbalien, so go ahead.
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Re: SDNW5 Discussion Thread I

Post by OmegaChief » 2012-04-28 03:55pm

Simon_Jester wrote: EDIT: Also, I want to make it clear that players should be restrained and not-pushy in any anti-Cenintern Pact.

We shouldn't see massive gang-ups on the Centralists just because they exist and are moderately authoritarian. Their supposed "menace" really isn't a serious threat to the galactic order, because they aren't that much bigger than anyone else. Also because they don't have a protracted history of conquest. This isn't Nazi Germany we're talking about.

One of the ways that these games can become lame and dull is when large defensive coalitions spring up that deter the more... lively and aggressive players from actually doing anything interesting. Force Lord is fairly good at poking the galaxy in the nose to see what will happen, even if sometimes he gets his finger bruised for his trouble. I respect that, and OOC I don't want to see people ganging up on him and smothering everything he does, just because they dislike his nation's politics.
Oh from an OOC perspective I'm not going to be pushy about it at all, it's just from an IC perspective the Authority just wants to try to be the good guys ressiting some kind of evil.

Do bare in mind that this is thier same logic for being friendly, and hopefully, allies with the Chamarrans of all people.

That and the sheer number of pies they're attempting to stick thier fingers in will leave them spread pretty thin!

So yes, in conclusion, I have no OOC desire to be part of a big block the smashes Force Lord apart at all, the Capellans are jsut being Capellans.
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Re: SDNW5 Discussion Thread I

Post by Shinn Langley Soryu » 2012-04-28 06:20pm

At this point in time, the Anti-Cenintern Pact is largely a formality and nothing more. Hell, I openly look forward to watching the Centralists' attempts to tweak the greater galaxy's nose; at least they'd give the signatories of the pact something to do while they try to formulate responses (both overt and covert). At least the Grays now have another client state to give aid to. The plot thickens.

As for the Bastians, given that many nations are dependent on trade with them, I wouldn't expect those nations to care too much about the fact that the Bastians are radical libertarians. Money often tends to override ideological considerations.
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Re: SDNW5 Discussion Thread I

Post by Panzersharkcat » 2012-04-28 06:37pm

Well, then that's one tool for the Bastians to use to maintain galactic peace, as mentioned quite a bit earlier.
EDIT: Because it'd be funny, I think I'll make Elvis an extremely popular classical musician in the Bastian Empire. Akhlut, would you mind that being the result of Elvis being abducted by the Greys and in some way, his music managed to spread to the Bastians?
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Re: SDNW5 Discussion Thread I

Post by Simon_Jester » 2012-04-28 07:47pm

Tabloidean from the planet of Tabloidea:

"ELVIS GIVES BIRTH TO ALIEN BABY! ELVIS-"

[Umerian ray-guns him]

"CONCESSION ACCEPTED."
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Re: SDNW5 Discussion Thread I

Post by Dark Hellion » 2012-04-28 09:29pm

Fenreer wrote:The Dwarven Covenant will have 4 trade routes open. If you're in the market for mined resources or durable manufactured goods, we're your one-stop source for some of the finest products available. Anyone interested and willing to reciprocate?
I am interested and I have both an open trade route and would accept an incoming route. We produce fine miniature goods and useless crap.
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Re: SDNW5 Discussion Thread I

Post by Skywalker_T-65 » 2012-04-29 01:32pm

Again, I miss a lot...okay, jumping back in:

1. Yes, I planned my fleet around the assumption that a bunch of gunships could wreck even the largest ship. Notice I don't have a lot of large ships. I do however have a large amount of smaller ships. I'm also editing my OOB to give the larger ships some fighters/gunships. Can't believe I didn't the first time around.

2. As for the Anti-Cenintern Pact, I'm not going to gang up on FL. I just think it could be funny, and interesting to have this going on. Plus, its not like we're attacking the Centralist's, just their attempts to subvert our government (at least for the Arcadians anyway). Shinn probably explained it better though.

3. And I have no way to counter the Scumdogs on the ground myself. My Army has better equipment than most, but it is also much smaller than most. So I have to rely on my fleet to keep hostile troops away.
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Re: SDNW5 Discussion Thread I

Post by Simon_Jester » 2012-04-29 01:41pm

Skywalker_T-65 wrote:Again, I miss a lot...okay, jumping back in:

1. Yes, I planned my fleet around the assumption that a bunch of gunships could wreck even the largest ship. Notice I don't have a lot of large ships. I do however have a large amount of smaller ships. I'm also editing my OOB to give the larger ships some fighters/gunships. Can't believe I didn't the first time around.
There's actually no reason for you to have them if you don't want to. I'd be a bit happier if some people choose not to do that, because it's supposed to be a choice. There's no real disadvantage to not having fighters, because all combat is narrative terms and a 50-point gwa-ship is a perfectly acceptable counter to 50 points worth of snubfighters.

You have not somehow weakened yourself by not having fighters.
3. And I have no way to counter the Scumdogs on the ground myself. My Army has better equipment than most, but it is also much smaller than most. So I have to rely on my fleet to keep hostile troops away.
If you pile up 10 points of ground units, and the Scumdogs attack them, they'll probably lose. Somehow.

How they lose is up to you, because you (and Akhlut, in this case) would be the ones writing the narrative.
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Re: SDNW5 Discussion Thread I

Post by Skywalker_T-65 » 2012-04-29 01:49pm

Well, its not that I feel I need them, or are weakened by not having fighters. Its more the designs of the ships I am using relate to fighters. For example, it would be odd to have a Battlestar without fighters. Or an ISD-clone without fighters. Besides, I already made up designs for a fighter and gunship, but only one ships carries them at the moment. Though my largest ships will still lack them. In all actuality, it will only be four or so ships actually carrying the things, most of the ships won't.

EDIT: Also, look at my username...T-65 is the military designation for the X-Wing...so I should say I'm somewhat biased towards the fighters. :D
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Re: SDNW5 Discussion Thread I

Post by Simon_Jester » 2012-04-29 02:16pm

Sigh. Yeah.

It's just that I'm kind of unhappy with the degree to which everyone's Space Militaries wind up looking pretty much the same, except for different people having different positions on the "numbers versus quality" scale.

I didn't want this to happen, but I couldn't think of a good way to avoid it that wouldn't cause more problems than it solved. :(
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Re: SDNW5 Discussion Thread I

Post by Imperial528 » 2012-04-29 02:32pm

I'd venture a guess that many militaries are similar is because in most sci-fi there are three doctrines of warfare present: Battleship doctrine, Carrier doctrine, and Swarm doctrine. Battleship and Carrier most everyone is familiar with, and Swarm doctrine is a (sort-of) middle ground between the two, with large numbers of relatively small ships making up fleets instead of a group of battleships with escorts or a group of carriers with escorts.

Personally I don't mind that the militaries are similar, because you can have both fleet A and B use the same doctrine and yet be radically different.

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Re: SDNW5 Discussion Thread I

Post by Simon_Jester » 2012-04-29 02:46pm

What I mean is that I perceive something of a lack of imaginativeness in how battleships or whatever are presented. I'm wondering how many people's warships are something other than big boxy turret farms, in other words...

Unfortunately, I'm not the one to fix this.
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Re: SDNW5 Discussion Thread I

Post by Imperial528 » 2012-04-29 02:49pm

Hm, interesting. Well, I can tell you that my designs are more creative than "box with guns" although I'm not sure about the others.

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Re: SDNW5 Discussion Thread I

Post by OmegaChief » 2012-04-29 03:19pm

Well the thing is, most people seem to enjoy more traditional and conventional ships, they're nice and familiar you don't have to worry how they interact because everyones basically working from the same page.

When you step away from the familiar, you're suddenly on a differnt page from everyone else, so understanding how it all slots together gets a bit more confusing.

But even if someone for example used space whales that ate enemy ships, how would this be differnt from someone who used a more traditional battleship box o' guns? It's still a big thing that flies up to another big thing, only instead of shooting coloured light it hits them with a tail or swallows them.

Superman clones deployed from space DC-10s? Isn't it just the same as Belkan ESPer pilots? Only they don't need the plane, still basically the same thing.

Even the League still basically has metal boxes that shoot other metal boxes, even if those MEtal boxes are just freigthers and all the shooting gets done using ESP powers.

So short of going weird for the sake of going weird, people go for the familiar know how it works anrrativly metal box that shoots light at people.

I personally don't see this as bad myself, even if people are mostly Metal Boxes shooting light at other metal boxes tehre's tones of room for making that itneresting and differnt looking with differnt ways of doing things, while if everyone tried to think of a weird unique way of represnting the same thing, it'd risk being a gimmicky narrative nightmare.
This odyssey, this, exodus. Do we journey toward the promised land, or into the valley of the kings? Three decades ago I envisioned a new future for our species, and now that we are on the brink of realizing my dream, I feel only solitude, and regret. Has my entire life's work been a fool's crusade? Have I led my people into this desert, only to die?
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Re: SDNW5 Discussion Thread I

Post by Simon_Jester » 2012-04-29 03:25pm

The differences would be narrative, not functional- but the function exists to serve the narrative, not the other way round. Narratively, the way the League 'fleet' works has real implications that affect a lot of other things about them- doctrine, social structure, relationships between civilian and military, that kind of thing. Arguably the Superman clones thing has much the same going for it. Space whales might, and so on.

And personally, I enjoy the exercise of fitting incompatible narratives together in a way that is entertaining, as I hope to demonstrate over the course of the game.
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Re: SDNW5 Discussion Thread I

Post by Skywalker_T-65 » 2012-04-29 03:48pm

Yeah, I can see your point. But while Space Sweden has a generic Navy for the most part, the SPACE VIKINGS are different. Remember my original idea for them? (kind of hard not to, considering I was channeling Shroom...)

While their Navy uses generic space warships, the tactics are nothing normal. And these ships have special features I'm keeping a secret for now (don't worry, it doesn't effect the point count, just the narrative). They will be...unique...I'll say that much. And some holdovers from that original idea are still around too.
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Re: SDNW5 Discussion Thread I

Post by Esquire » 2012-04-29 03:54pm

I've got a certain amount of that built into my nation - Hellas is very decentralized, and most warship production is done by local shipyards according to no specific standard design, so a nominally-identical Confederate cinquereme built at Delphi might have twice as many particle cannon as one built at Corinth, but no fighter complement. Tribal designs (Aeolic, Ionic, or Doric qinqueremes, etc.) are more standardized, but there's three times as many of them.

As a general rule, Doric ships are self-consciously metal boxes with guns bolted on, with a preference for spinal mounts. Aeolic ships are designed for swarm tactics, because that tribe tended towards piracy historically and needed to be able to chase down multiple merchant ships. One sees lots of fast battlestar-type designs and a preference for electronic warfare - a ship too swamped in ECM to shoot back can have its engines shot off and then be boarded with a minimum of fuss. Ionic ships try for a more balanced, combined-arms approach that occasionally leaves their fleets flat-footed against Aeolic misdirection or unable to stand up to Doric firepower. The Confederate Navy itself tries to hammer all three of these fighting styles into something all the Hellenes can approve of, but it doesn't really work, and there's a definite majority of Doric officers aboard dreadnoughts, Aeolic officers aboard carriers, and Ionic officers scattered around. That mixed with a cultural preference for personal combat ends with lots and lots of confused chains of command, contradicting orders from officers with different tribal affiliations, and boarding actions inserted where they really don't make much sense.
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